Horse on full loan - vet/insurance/WWYD query

[Patch55]

Hi all,
I've had my horse on full loan for about 6 months. He came from the field and we have been mostly hacking to build him up. Hes 14, had previously showjumped as a 4/5 year old and then been in a couple of loan homes. We started a bit of schooling and jumping, but he struggled to maintain right canter lead and would flying change back to his left.
Vet came, trotted up/lunged/flexion tested. Bilaterally lame in hinds, 1/10 on straight, slightly worse on right rein, 3/10 after flexion. Near hind worse and fetlocks dropping "significantly" when moving (I feel so bad I hadnt noticed this but he had felt sound up until the schooling issue arose ?). Some inflammation of the medial suspensory branch on near hind. Vet wants to do scans for suspensory issues and xray hocks for TMT hock pain. There was also sacro iliac pain.

My worry is that although he is insured, I dont have any medical history for him, and I am not blind to that fact that any previous hock/suspensory issues will probably void any claim I try to make.
Owner has said that hes always been very sound (I trust her, she does want what's best for him).

He is booked into horse hospital tuesday for the scans and xray.

WWYD?
1) Send for scans, xrays and any treatment the vets can do on the day and trust insurance will cover it? And if not, suck up the likely costs?

2) Get vet out to scan suspensories at home to know what we are dealing with first?

I have no experience with suspensory issues, the said said this was likely a chronic injury (didnt recommend icing or box rest so horse has been having a lovely time in the field). Although I am happy to pay for what he needs, I have a horrible suspicion it will be coming from my own (medium size) pockets and not insurance.

Any experienced or help appreciated!

 

[Goldenstar]

I would send him home for retirement and save yourself the heartache .

 

[milliepops]

I would send him home for retirement and save yourself the heartache .

I agree with this I'm afraid ?

 

[southerncomfort]

I think as a first step I'd be asking for access to his vet records to see if this is actually an ongoing issue that the owner has not disclosed.

It would be entirely unfair for you to claim on your insurance/pay out for lots of diagnostics if this a known issue.

It doesn't sound like this is fixable so I'd be thinking about sending him back TBH.

 

[Patch55]

Thanks all. I appreciate the up front honesty. I will scan though as am keen to know what's going on in there and his prognosis. So maybe scanning at home is the better option....

Southerncomfort - I have tried getting in touch with previous vets but they wouldn't speak to me as am not the registered owner.

 

[OldNag]

I am sorry you are in this situation

Why was he loaned from the field?

Unless you can be sure there is no previous history, you can't be sure insurance will pay. The bill for suspensory or ours was well over £3k all in - it really can mount up.

It sounds as if he isn't coping with coming back into work anyway so for his sake retirement sounds a good option.

I think I agree with GS - I would have a frank talk with owner and look to retire him.

 

[OldNag]

Thanks all. I appreciate the up front honesty. I will scan though as am keen to know what's going on in there and his prognosis. So maybe scanning at home is the better option....

Southerncomfort - I have tried getting in touch with previous vets but they wouldn't speak to me as am not the registered owner.

Can the owner not get this info for you? It is important.

 

[milliepops]

If treatment is possible the rehab is likely to be lengthy and from what you've said I would not expect a brilliant prognosis afterwards.
Personally it's the sort of thing I'd attempt for a horse that I owned -if the vet thought we could make them comfortable- but not for someone else's, you might end up spending thousands on something that won't stand up to any significant work

 

[Pinkvboots]

I kind of agree with the other 2!

If your determined to get the work up done I think you should speak to the owner about the extra cost if things are not covered.

I personally wouldn't expect a loaner to stump up for this if it was my horse.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Tell registered owner the get the vet to give you the records before you go down this route. At the end of the day he isn’t yours to fix no matter how much you may want to. You could fix him then they take him back.

I know I’m being harsh about it and very cynical but I have very little faith in the general human populace especially the equestrian community.

 

[ihatework]

The horse is on loan, so the owner is still involved. He must have been registered with a vet before you took him on so it’s perfectly legitimate that you get access to his full vet history while in his current owners care. The current owner will need to authorise it and the insurance company will definitely require it.

So before you do anything else, get the history. If the owner is obstructive then send the horse back and don’t commit a penny more, they only have themselves to blame.

If you get the history and it’s clean, then you stand a good chance of insurance payout - if that’s the route you want to go I’d just ship the horse to the hospital and leave a good orthopaedic vet to do the work up. Just consider that the end result with the horse might be the same. Retirement.

 

[baran]

Southerncomfort - I have tried getting in touch with previous vets but they wouldn't speak to me as am not the registered owner.

The owner can ask them to release the records either to you or your vet. Dick Vet had no problem with doing this when I asked them to do this for the new owner of a pony which once belonged to me.

 

[wren123]

Yes absolutely the owner can authorise release of the veterinary history to you, alternatively they can ask for the history to be emailed to them, then they can foward them to you.
If they won't do this I'd be inclined to doubt their honesty as to the horse's past.

 

[vhf]

You really need the owner to step up and release the vet records. Even if they show nothing, it tells you something. And then have a frank conversation with the owner regarding the horse's likely ridden - and otherwise - future. If they really do want what's best for the horse, it shouldn't include you spending a fortune on an unfixable problem, insurance or not. What's best for this horse 'may' be retirement, or it 'may' be gentle light hacking work only. No guarantee at this point schooling and more will ever be on the cards. Unless you are willing to take on that level of risk, there are other loan horses out there equally deserving of your care. Sad, but true.

Editing to add... I have one I'm considering putting out on 'permanent' loan, but at no point would I expect the loaner - new or otherwise - to take on this level of commitment unless they were adamant they wanted to. So I am looking at this from both sides of the equation.

 

[atropa]

Honestly it sounds harsh but I wouldn't be starting investigations of this potential magnitude for a horse I didn't own. I'd either send back or expect owner to foot most of the bill.
You're a very good person for considering it.

 

[Squeak]

Completely agree with those saying the owner needs to get the history for the horse. I think you can get the insurance company to confirm if they will pay or not so if they will and the owner has been honest then I would get the workups done on the insurance. If the horse had no previous history of it and you just hand the horse back then the owner now has no way of paying for it as I assume you had to provide the insurance as per the loan agreement.

If the owner has been decent and honest and the insurance will pay then I would work with the owner and say you're thinking that the horse may have to retire and hence it may be coming back to them but get all the investigative work and any treatment done on the insurance and see what the outcome is and if he would still be rideable at the end.

If the owner hasn't been honest or the insurance won't cover it then I agree with the others that unfortunately the horse would need to go back.

 

[throwawayaccount]

i'm sorry this has happened to you and your loan horse - kudos to you for investigating how you are and continue to.

the owner needs to step up in terms of veterinary history, i'm sure she can authorise the vets to release the data to you or even add you onto the 'account' as such so long as its been verified who you are,

for a horse that isn't yours you need to ask yourself if you can afford to potentially put yourself in debt, if the insurance won't pay- and whether this is worth it or not. ultimately its not your bill to foot -- unless this was agreed when you took on the loan horse?

ETA - reread your post that says he came from the field, i'm just wondering if he was turned away with/because of these injuries/ailments?

 

[Patch55]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I will work on getting as much history as possible. He is booked in for his scans next week anyway - it's the least I can do for him and it will give me peace of mind that I am doing the right for him, even if that is retirement.
I have an excellent relationship with the owner and they are very supportive so they're also working on gathering the history.
Ill update next week in case this thread is of use to anyone else with the same symptoms.

 

[Bernster]

Obv some of this depends on what the terms of the loan are, if you agreed any, and particularly what was agreed re vets fees. If you have taken out cover for insurance inc vet fees, and are responsible for those, then check first with your insurer If they will accept the claim. Pre existing to my understanding only excludes things you are aware of which existed prior to insurance, but maybe that’s wrong.

(In my case I did have insurance cover despite some pre existing unrelated issues that I wasn’t aware of, and they accepted the claim. Yes it might impact my premiums going forward but that’s what I’d agreed and I wanted to be fair to the owner.)

I think then a sensible convo with owner as to how much you are prepared to cover and what happens with the horse (stay, be tested and treated to some extent, or be returned). If owner doesn’t have insurance then they would likely be taking back a horse that isn’t insured going forward, and that’s a crappy situation, but I recognise that this is a risk with loaning out a horse.

 

[Leandy]

I wouldn't be risking substantial amounts out of my own pocket for a horse I didn't own. I agree that you need to be clear about what your insurance will cover. If the horse is not going to do what you want though in the reasonably foreseeable future I would be sending it back to the owner. That is after all, one of the upsides of a loan.

 

[awelshandawarmblood]

Having been through this myself with a loan horse, I'd send him home.
In my situation I had the vet out, all the diagnostics at a local hospital & then he went to Langfords for the all the radio active business - he turned out to have a hole in his ligament & needed months of box rest followed by time off & re-habbing. I had him along side my cob as he was out of work, so I ended up with two I couldn't ride, months of extra bills, chasing insurance, huge bedding bills as he was messy as anything on box rest, all for him to go home. I desperately wanted to fix him but it was just too much.
His owner was lovely & helped loads - he was a homebred so he was never going anywhere. It was just one of those situations but having now been through it, I'd know when to draw the line - loads of heart ache!

 

[w1bbler]

Just ring the insurance, tell them about the issue & that scans are happening (as you seem to be happy to pay for that). Submit a claim & see if they accept before deciding on treatment.
The process is usually fairly quick.
Wouldn't be spending much of my own money on a loan horse, but would happily spend the insurance companies.
They will want to know which vets he has previously been registered with & then they can do the digging.

 

[Wishfilly]

I would speak to your insurance too, and if you have been paying for insurance, I sort of think you may as well use it if they will pay out and you can easily afford any excesses. I would want to get the owner involved ASAP, as they are probably the ones who need to make any decisions about longer term or invasive treatments.

I would be very honest with the owner about finances and insurance, and what the limit of insurance is, and perhaps discuss together what you are both willing to do/commit to. Like I say, as you have paid for insurance, it doesn't make sense to me not to use that BUT I would not start paying out your "own" money for someone else's horse.

Do be warned that this could end up very heartbreaking for you- e.g. if you find an issue you feel is treatable/rehabbable but the owner wants to PTS, the decision could be taken out of your hands (I don't necessarily think it will happen with the issues you describe, but I've seen it happen in other situations).

I do think this is a really tricky situation to deal with from all sides, which is why it's often better that owners keep the insurance in their name, even if the loaner pays the premiums.

 

[Spirit2021]

If he has been on loads of full loans then that’s a big red flag to me. Not everyone is very truthful and chances are the horse has a problem and the owner knows about it but won’t tell because nobody would want the horse. Plus if a horse was out of work for so long that would Be a red flag.

realistically I would Find out the history before doing anything like the other people have said . I only do a scan since realistically you don’t own the horse. If you owned the horse then it would be different. Truthfully if I was you I would just return the horse I wouldn’t bother doing anything .

 

[Patch55]

Bad news - his hind suspensories are damaged from the top to the branches at various points on both legs. Vet prognosis is light, light hacking on roads after some rest. I have spoken to the owner and he will just retire at theirs, I cannot get on him again in good conscience knowing that every time I do, I place those suspensories under strain and do more damage.

I was gob smacked at the amount of damage the vet pointed out to me on the ultra sound. He felt sound during the hacking phase of our fitness plan, it was only the canter lead issue when we started schooling which indicated something was wrong. Poor buggar.

 

[milliepops]

Sorry it wasn't better news. ?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Sorry for you, but glad owner has stepped up to take him back to retire him x

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

So sorry for this news but the best thing that can happen is for him to go back to his owner. I hope you find something suitable to loan or buy that you can build a bond with and have fun. ?

 

[Bernster]

Sad but at least things are clear and hopefully his future is secure. I haven’t posted much but I’m in a similar situation (prognosis is better though), horse going back this weekend. Sad but as long as both parties are fair with each other and the horse gets looked after, that’s about as good as you can get.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

That is sad news for you and the owner but it's good for the horse that he has 2 people on his side and will be able to spend his retirement at home.