Horse that refuses to go into an outline

Thank you again everyone.

She can bend nicely, leg yields in walk trot and canter. I have also spent a lot of time building her up through hacking, hill work and plenty of trot. She can manage gates etc and is responsive enough to the leg to be able to manoeuvre through most things.

She sometimes head tosses, or throws her head extremely high and chomps. This is mainly when excited as an evasion or when she’s angry and these moments are rare now. She previously head tossed every schoolinf session! The new instructor did say he thought that she was a horse very in tune to me and that often the head toss was in response to my tension (so if she’s getting very excited and I’m trying to settle her!) so he has worked on having me drop the contact at these times which has worked reduce them massively.
He has also said I sometimes tend to hold onto the inside which unbalances her, obviously I’m trying not to do this but maybe he tells me at a better time and it takes my longer to realise myself?

In general day to day schooling or work she is very intermittent. She will occasionally seek the contact and hold it for a short period then revert to nose poking. I have videoed her a lot and she is generally working okay but just with the nose poking. I have to push her extremely hard to get any sort of drop from her. Usually it’s at the end of a 30-40min session involving poles, millions of transitions, leg yields etc. I don’t mind this too much but it’s not possible to recreate on the show ground plus as soon as she gets excited it’s futile anyway.

I have been given the number of a show producer and I think perhaps saving up and sending her away could be the way to go. My only reservation is that she’s very unsettled with change and I’m worried it could cause me big problems when she returns.
 
to clarify, perhaps ugly is better worded as incorrect? the OP horse is going incorrectly now and there will be many moments when it still goes incorrectly on the journey to improving is more what was meant ie dont expect a miracle change in a few sessions because no horse can do that.

goalposts-the horse has been allowed to go in a certain way and any time we change that it is moving the goal posts. no mention of pressure to conform to competition ideals etc.

horses are quite capable of saying WHY or NO THANKS and those moments will also not be correct /not feel nice, i dont know why people expect that 5 mins with a better rider will yield a perfect horse all of a sudden........it will be a long of road to change such established habits.
 
I know what you're saying, H2012 - my concern is that it's easy to misinterpret that (if the OP were not well versed in what is correct, incorrect, and really unacceptable) and therefore think that it's OK if the next trainer she tries saws its mouth into its chest using draw reins and a pelham - "well it looks ugly now, but it'll come right". I appreciate that's an extreme interpretation, but you do see some pretty extreme (and peculiar!) things in the horse world!
 
Actually among the list of things that have been reccomended by various well meaning friends and also professionals (including more than one judge)

Draw reins
Pessoa
Side reins
Pelham or Wilkie snaffle
Flash strap
Spurs
Harbridge or standing martingale
Remouthing with side reins in the stable.
Holding the contact until she gives in.
Opening my hands very wide and pushing her hard into the hands.
Jigglng, wiggling and tweaking the reins
Etc etc

The horse likes and prefers little to no movement of the hands and in her mouth. The more I move the more she tries to get away.

As you can see my heads allover the place with what’s right and wrong! I don’t want to hurt my horse but I do want to teach her to go correctly in a way that makes her a successful ridden horse and not just a low level happy hacker.
 
totally agree with palindromes lateral suggestions.

i once rode a very hot chestnut mare who had never gone in an outline in her life she was 18 years old, she sounds the double of your mare, she instantly took me forward and rounded up into a lovely outline over a very soft back, it was like a miracle,unfortunately she died shortly after, the only reason i could think of why she did it was in response to my riding which i had recently changed due to me riding a spanish stallion and i had changed my approach and my seat and the way i used it
 
tristar said:
totally agree with palindromes lateral suggestions.

i once rode a very hot chestnut mare who had never gone in an outline in her life she was 18 years old, she sounds the double of your mare, she instantly took me forward and rounded up into a lovely outline over a very soft back, it was like a miracle,unfortunately she died shortly after, the only reason i could think of why she did it was in response to my riding which i had recently changed due to me riding a spanish stallion and i had changed my approach and my seat and the way i used it
Click to expand...

The way I read that, it sounds like riding the mare on the bit killed her! (Sorry; very wrong of me I know :-) )
 
Greyhorse1 said:
Actually among the list of things that have been reccomended by various well meaning friends and also professionals (including more than one judge)

Draw reins
Pessoa
Side reins
Pelham or Wilkie snaffle
Flash strap
Spurs
Harbridge or standing martingale
Remouthing with side reins in the stable.
Holding the contact until she gives in.
Opening my hands very wide and pushing her hard into the hands.
Jigglng, wiggling and tweaking the reins
Etc etc

The horse likes and prefers little to no movement of the hands and in her mouth. The more I move the more she tries to get away.

As you can see my heads allover the place with what’s right and wrong! I don’t want to hurt my horse but I do want to teach her to go correctly in a way that makes her a successful ridden horse and not just a low level happy hacker.
Click to expand...

Very very occasionally you will come across a horse that really can’t do bits. It might be worth trying your horse in a hackamore or bitless bridle.

I’d also be inclined to send the horse away for a couple of weeks to a very good but sympathetic rider and see if they can offer any insight.

Other than that, without seeing the horse in action in a variety of circumstances I’m not sure how anyone can really help further.

Sometimes they just are square pegs!
It may be that you need to redirect your aims for the horse to something that doesn’t involve dressage.
 
Greyhorse1 said:
Holding the contact until she gives in.
Click to expand...


This is a valid strategy, but only if you have spot on timing on the release as a reward for doing the right thing and also know when to hold because the horse is evading and when not to because the horse is losing balance or simply can't do what you are asking.
 
We had a old PC schoolmaster who was very obedient, he could practically do prelim 7 on his own, but with his nose stuck out. He was 12 when we got him and everyone that rode him, he made them look good.
Eldest daughter goes to Talland and decides that she will try and make him go, 'properly'. No way. He had obviously had every gadget at the time tried on him, and every time you took a proper contact he would start head waving, spooking, as soon as you dropped it, he went back to his normal compliant self.
We also had a TB who had done showing, he only went 'on the bit' , when he was on show, the rest of the time he looked like a donkey and could be blooming awkward. He once bucked off someone who he obviously didn't like, stood in the corner of the school.

I always think of going to the gym when I see people trying to get horses to do something they not normally do. If I went to the gym a good trainer would say, stop if it hurts, give you feedback so you know if you are doing it correctly. I do not go to the gym, it would make me miserable and I do not like pain, but I would go for a nice fast walk.
So what's the benefit you are selling the horse, you do this and it will make that easier? But how does it know and if it hurts why would it want to do it? So perhaps you sell it you do this for three strides, drop the contact, or you get a pat, or a slice of carrot. You work for 15mins and you go for a hack with you mate. What ever happens it will not happen over night and you build up, if you push too hard, you get 500kg of resistance with attitude.
I have seen someone who would call themselves a pro trying to bully a 600kg horse that my then 14 year old daughter could hack out in a snaffle. The horse won. We are supposed to have all the intelligence, its up to us to use it.
 
Greyhorse1 said:
The new instructor did say he thought that she was a horse very in tune to me and that often the head toss was in response to my tension (so if she’s getting very excited and I’m trying to settle her!) so he has worked on having me drop the contact at these times which has worked reduce them massively.
He has also said I sometimes tend to hold onto the inside which unbalances her, obviously I’m trying not to do this but maybe he tells me at a better time and it takes my longer to realise myself?

.
Click to expand...


So perhaps you need to work on not unbalancing her? Some horses are very forgiving of rider faults, some need the rider to ride extremely well, yours needs you to make sure that you do not unbalance her. Would it be worth you having some lessons on a dressage simulator which will show you when you hold on? Or having some lunge lessons without reins (on a different horse), to help you to develop your own balance?
 
tristar said:
holding the contact until she gives in is riding the horse from front to back

its working through the whole body from back to front that allows the horse to carry the neck and head in the correct position
Click to expand...


You seem very blinkered in the strategy that you are prepared to even consider for a horse that waves its head in the air as an ingrained habit.

Occasionally, holding the contact is the right thing to do. You just have to know enough to know when it's the right thing to do, and how to time it. It does the same thing as using side reins, except that the rider can release as a reward for the right reaction.
 
If I came to teach you on this horse, I would get on and work out how get it going better, then tell you how I did it and go from there.

If I couldn’t ride it I’d hand you the reins back and recommend someone else.

Has any instructor actually ridden the horse?
 
Greyhorse1 said:
recently aquired instructor number 4 with whom some progress has been made but he is very expensive and I can only afford one lesson per month so everything is slow going.
Click to expand...
ycbm said:
I think you have probably hit the nail on the head a bit here. You have an instructor who you make progress with, but that progress stalls in between lessons.

Either he is not giving you enough advice and exercises to keep the progress happening between lessons, or there is something about your riding that only happens when the instructor is there or his words are still ringing in your ears.
Click to expand...

agree with this.
learning to ride well is hard, and retraining some horses is hard too.
it takes time and can be a brain bender.

it sounds to me like instructor 4 is your best bet since you've already started getting some results. and rather than sending her away or investing in gadgets you need to either get more from each lesson (homework, video, etc) or get more frequent lessons. I find it hard to progress if I only have a single lesson each month, when you're working on things that aren't established.
Things can start to unravel in that time and then you need putting back on track before it stalls again.
 
Thank you all.

The new instructor is based away so it’s a case of boxing up and heading there. He is £50/hour which obviously isn’t terrible but by the time I’ve factored in diesel etc it is working out expensive. I do agree I need more lessons though.

No instructors have ridden the horse. New instructor won’t ride her either because she is 13hh and he is 6’2 and a larger man! I’ve had this issue with most instructors, only one has been small enough and she wouldn’t ride her. She’s also very much a one person horse.

Perhaps the horse isn’t cut out for this job, however it would probably mean she’s not cut out for any job. She can’t do much fast or work with lots of other horses galloping around as she explodes with tension. She jumps but is never going to be a showjumper. She is also not a safe hack, she’s okay for a leg stretch or two but she’s not for the faint hearted, coupled with her size people looking for this sort of horse would be in short supply.

She actually enjoys work that makes her think. She loves transitions and tests where she’s just moving the whole time without time to think. She also loves a good gallop but is prone to sideways leaping at speed and the odd bronc.

Basically, she’s a complicated character and I’m not sure another job would suit her either although another horse would probably suit me much better! I feel committed to her at this point. She’s not an easy horse and she wants to please but her tension gets the better of her.

I’m not all that sure where the gadgets and forcing comments have come from. She has been backed professionally and kindly, turned away more than once and ridden only in a snaffle her whole life. She has not had any gadgets on at all other than a Pessoa that the physio recommended.

I have messaged the few people who were happy to look at videos :)
 
I think a change of language may help here, you say she is stubborn, I see this as more it is not comfortable to do this work, or she does not understand, or she does not see the benefit.

If you are happy that she is comfortable, I would start in hand, starting on a halter, and teaching to reverse of a light feel, so she drops her head to step back. Not by pulling on the halter, but by a feel backed up with a tapping on the kneecaps, lightly, just enough that she wants to find a solution. As soon as she steps back then stop the tap and drop the comtact on the halter. Repeat until she will lower and reverse SOFTLY off a light touch.

Then do this off a bit.

Then do this mounted, have someone at the front who you have demonstrated what you want.

Stay at halt until you can pick up the rein and she softens and yields. Then move on the bending, one rein only, a release being immediate.

The release is everything. A total and utter release and being allowed to stand.

Then a walk.

Greyhorse1 said:
In general day to day schooling or work she is very intermittent. She will occasionally seek the contact and hold it for a short period then revert to nose poking.
Click to expand...

If she is being intermittent it shows me that she is trying, but the release is not coming soon enough.
As soon as she gives for even one stride I would throw the contact at her. Breathe and pick up again. As soon as she gives throw it at her (in a gentle way!).

You will find that she will soon realise that when you pick it up and she yeilds, you throw it away, and the give will become instantaneous.

Once you are assurred that as soon as you pick her up she will yeild, ask for 3 steps, and thrown it away. Once she will softly hold for 3 steps then ask for 5.

Soon she will be seeking the bit. As soon as you pick it up she will be there with you.


Greyhorse1 said:
I have to push her extremely hard to get any sort of drop from her.
Click to expand...

This tells me that she is not really off the leg either. You should not have to push really hard. She should respond from a touch. To teach them to go off a light leg you need to quit the reins, loose, and ask forwards and use a tap tap tap in an rather irritating way until she trots forward. No further leg. Then ask her to walk. When her walk flags then touch. If it is not good enough then tap tap tap until she is irritated enough to jog on. Always allow the forward movement, but when she has done it reset the ealk and leave her with it. If she flags, then tap tap.....

All with a good heart, not punishment, and with the idea that you are explaining rather than battling her.
 
ycbm said:
You seem very blinkered in the strategy that you are prepared to even consider for a horse that waves its head in the air as an ingrained habit.

Occasionally, holding the contact is the right thing to do. You just have to know enough to know when it's the right thing to do, and how to time it. It does the same thing as using side reins, except that the rider can release as a reward for the right reaction.
Click to expand...

Exactly, passive resistance is a very handy tool and doesn't need to be riding from front to back, if you connect leg to hand and the rein is blocked when doing so this well timed in this situation could be pretty handy. Also to add (although hard without seeing a video of whats happening) gentle flexions at the poll can help to unlock the front end. Very difficult without actually seeing the op riding to give any other advice.
 
This wouldnt be a highland pony would it. If so it may not be being stubborn I also hate that in horse talk but just a bit of beating you to it. As above start on the ground and in reverse and if she is a highland she will learn very quickly but will also try to avoid hard work so you need to make it all fun
 
Littlebear said:
Exactly, passive resistance is a very handy tool and doesn't need to be riding from front to back, if you connect leg to hand and the rein is blocked when doing so this well timed in this situation could be pretty handy. Also to add (although hard without seeing a video of whats happening) gentle flexions at the poll can help to unlock the front end. Very difficult without actually seeing the op riding to give any other advice.
Click to expand...


I may not be visualising what you are intending to describe but that sounds to me like a perfect recipe to encourage head-tossing/other evasion to escape the contact and makes me wonder if that has happened to the pony in the past (maybe shortly after backing).
 
the horse already has the engine in gear, it goes forwards enough, the back end is working , its the balancing of the the horse which helps it to carry its neck and head , as an extension of the balanced body, the idea is that when ridden in a balanced way and calm without rushing the horse will naturally stretch forward the neck and seek the contact of the riders hand for guidance as the final piece of the puzzle that forms the arc of the bridge from the back to the front, as opposed to riding with too much engine and pressing the horse against the bit to get it to give in or using side reins, its two different schools, one classical one mainly continental in origin

when you can`t get what you want out of the horse when schooling look to your riding first, your seat and independence of seat from hands. and body posture which may be blocking the horse, are you responsible for your own body weight and carrying yourself.

i think horses are clever enough, this horse has been taught by people with gadgets that as soon as the gadget comes off it can do what it feels like, so ultimately causing more resistance than you had in the first place
 
ycbm said:
You seem very blinkered in the strategy that you are prepared to even consider for a horse that waves its head in the air as an ingrained habit.

Occasionally, holding the contact is the right thing to do. You just have to know enough to know when it's the right thing to do, and how to time it. It does the same thing as using side reins, except that the rider can release as a reward for the right reaction.
Click to expand...

agree with all this. the release and reward is of course so important BUT you need to show them how to give you the right answer occasionally.
 
Greyhorse1 said:
Thank you all.

The new instructor is based away so it’s a case of boxing up and heading there. He is £50/hour which obviously isn’t terrible but by the time I’ve factored in diesel etc it is working out expensive. I do agree I need more lessons though.

No instructors have ridden the horse. New instructor won’t ride her either because she is 13hh and he is 6’2 and a larger man! I’ve had this issue with most instructors, only one has been small enough and she wouldn’t ride her. She’s also very much a one person horse.

Perhaps the horse isn’t cut out for this job, however it would probably mean she’s not cut out for any job. She can’t do much fast or work with lots of other horses galloping around as she explodes with tension. She jumps but is never going to be a showjumper. She is also not a safe hack, she’s okay for a leg stretch or two but she’s not for the faint hearted, coupled with her size people looking for this sort of horse would be in short supply.

She actually enjoys work that makes her think. She loves transitions and tests where she’s just moving the whole time without time to think. She also loves a good gallop but is prone to sideways leaping at speed and the odd bronc.

Basically, she’s a complicated character and I’m not sure another job would suit her either although another horse would probably suit me much better! I feel committed to her at this point. She’s not an easy horse and she wants to please but her tension gets the better of her.

I’m not all that sure where the gadgets and forcing comments have come from. She has been backed professionally and kindly, turned away more than once and ridden only in a snaffle her whole life. She has not had any gadgets on at all other than a Pessoa that the physio recommended.

I have messaged the few people who were happy to look at videos :)
Click to expand...

it sounds like you could have a pain issue-she doesnt seem happy to do much :(

they dont set out to make life awkward and reading that she seems to dislike all ridden activity makes me think there must be a pain somewhere?
 
Now you have said 13hands, that a whole different picture. You have to sell, 'the deal ' even harder, they have a pony brain and are super smart at working out how to not do things. You can not work them out of it, they get fitter and naughtier.

If it was mine, I would think what is the trigger, and what can it do to avoid this and get them working forward and enjoying the work. Ponies are extremely smart, so if you are going to work on something, apart from standing still, do it on the way home. Do not keep doing the same thing over and over, and her getting it wrong, you have to engineer a situation, where they get it a least partly right and reward that.
If you can afford it there are some very good show riders who ride ponies, find one who does not have a big yard, so they actually ride the pony and send it away for a month. I have used show riders, to teach ponies new things when my daughters were too novice to do it themselves. If you find someone close enough you can ride there, they will know the pony brain and compared to £50ph its really good value for consistent work, even if its only half and hour a day.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top