Horse went out on loan returned lame and loanee's asking for bond back???

Firstly it surprising how a horse can change in a new environment with a new person.
So she is not necessarily lying.
When you went to see him he probably thought oh i know her and felt comparable in your presence.

I dont think she had a good plan to let settle and bond. she rushed and did things wrong.

Did you have a contract?

Really i think the best out come is ye you give her the money back BUT you ask for the rug to be returned, the saddle to be repaired and a contribution for him to see the physio and to put shoes back on.

Could the lameness be due to sore feet/bruising to his soles?
 
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I think this is a classic example of where someone obviously overhorsed themselves; plus it looks like your horse didn't really settle at the new yard and this might explain his behaviour (plus maybe some pain issues somewhere along the line if his behaviour totally changed).

I think the loanee should return your rug forthwith, and it is fair for you to retain the £250 until this is done. Also that as your saddle has been damaged, then that the loanee should pay for this. However, I don't know how the situation would stand if you submitted a claim to your insurance company for this? (or the loanee's, depending on how you arranged it). IF insurance exists for the saddle then it might be easier and less acrimonius if either you or the loanee claimed for this rather than have it cause yet more upset. No doubt there would be an excess to pay - which might be more than the repairs cost anyway!

Unfortunately, in law, I suspect there may be a few grey areas in all of this; you could of course consult a solicitor experienced in equine issues, but that will cost you ££ unfortunately, but then again it just might be the way forward if you really cannot come to any agreement with the loanee.
 
vroutledge said:
I appreciate everyones coments and opinion but unless you were in my situation you dont see the stress this has all caused...... the bond was £250 not alot really considering i have spent more than this on his physio since returning which a lot of you keep pointing out that she wasnt to blame but at the end of the day she had taken my horse out on full loan and she wanted to move yards and treat him as her own with a view to buy once she had saved some money....i have asked her about the rug and why she never returned it and she said she cant find it(?????)
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I can imagine it must have been very stressful for you and ultimately it is up to you what you do. If you feel justified in keeping the bond, then stick to your guns. But it may not be as simple as just keeping it. It could become even more of a stressful situation for you. But that is up to you, personally I would do as I said before, and put it down to experience. Either way, I hope you get things sorted.
 
I just wish people would listen, i would never ride a new horse the first day at a new yard i would let them settle down first. she was obvioulsy lying when she said she wasnt a novice, he's very well behaved but i wouldnt consider him a novice.....it all really upset me and someone mentioned about maybe his shoes being taken off could have caused his lameness or part of it, this is true it may have some role in it but she never consulted me about having them removed and the fact he's only just been shod makes me wonder why she had them removed...what a waste of £55.
 
I would deduct the money for the rug, afterall she's either kept it or lost it. I would also deduct the money for the shoes as it said in the contract he was to stay shod.

Then I would give her back the rest of the money. I would give her a letter stating that she paid £250 for the bond. Your rug cost you £120 as she lost it you are deducting it leaving her £130, then state about the shoes which cost you £55 to replace. Give her the remaining £75

Unless you can prove your saddle left in mint condition you won't have much luck, as the the pysio, as others have said he could've slipped anywhere.
 
I do really feel for you as I have also had loans that have gone wrong! But on the otherhand you say that her taking the horse to her yard meant that she fully looked after it, paid for all its fees etc, so surely thsi meant she could decide how to shoe the horse? She may have been trying a barefoot approach? Also you say you have had the horse since 3 months old, the horse could be extremely attached to you and behaves for you as he knows/trusts you but was completely fased by a whole new environment and may have taken months to settle. My pony can be like this, he is fine for me but a real sod for other people as he doesn't know them. TBH I don't think its unreasonable to have a horse behave when ridden after moving to a new home after a day or so.

I am not having a go but just trying to see both sides. If she has been negligent in anyway then keep the bond. If it has been all a bit of an accident/bad match then give the bond back. either way its upto you!
 
This is the exact reason id never,ever loan any of my horses out again.
My experience is they want a machine not a horse...have no respect for the horse as the dont own it....im sure not everyone is the same,but my personal experience
 
hunting mad said:
This is the exact reason id never,ever loan any of my horses out again.
My experience is they want a machine not a horse...have no respect for the horse as the dont own it....im sure not everyone is the same,but my personal experience
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I have learnt a lot from this and i will never loan a horse out again.
 
shortstuff99 said:
I do really feel for you as I have also had loans that have gone wrong! But on the otherhand you say that her taking the horse to her yard meant that she fully looked after it, paid for all its fees etc, so surely thsi meant she could decide how to shoe the horse? She may have been trying a barefoot approach? Also you say you have had the horse since 3 months old, the horse could be extremely attached to you and behaves for you as he knows/trusts you but was completely fased by a whole new environment and may have taken months to settle. My pony can be like this, he is fine for me but a real sod for other people as he doesn't know them. TBH I don't think its unreasonable to have a horse behave when ridden after moving to a new home after a day or so.

I am not having a go but just trying to see both sides. If she has been negligent in anyway then keep the bond. If it has been all a bit of an accident/bad match then give the bond back. either way its upto you!
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I Understand your opinion and i told her to let him settle and spend time with him on the ground getting to know him.....he was very attached to me but he was used to others looking after him, how she described him seemed totally out of character and when i was there he was fine with her even when i took a step back and just observed so not sure if it true or not. oh and the part about his behaving after a day or two i agree but from me dropping him off he was shoved in a stable and left in then she brought him out the next morning and got straight on which under normal circumstances i dont think he would have bothered but the arena was surrounded by paddocks and she said all the horse were going mad because he was a new horse on the yard....which explains why his behaviour was bad. as for the shoe issue i get that some people like barefoot but he'd had brand new shoes on 4 days earlier and she never asked if he would be okay barefoot...he has flat feet and they arent very strong either which i would have thought her farrier might have picked up on.
 
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This sounds like a horrible experience.
Personally, I would itemise the costs that can reasonably be charged for - shoes, rugs, saddle - and send her the remaining balance. If it ends up that she 'owes' you money, then write it off. But make sure that you make her aware that you are letting her off the additional charge.
I can't understand why you wouldn't be able to do this. After all, that is why you took a deposit.

On a totally different note. Is that Bromley farm in your photo?
 
When you say "some time ago" and "blizzard" I'm assuming it was several months ago. In which case why on earth have you left it until now to try to sort it out. Return her her money provided she returns you the rug and if you're going to loan in future make sure you have a better understanding of the capabilities of the person you are intending to entrust your horse to.
 
What a sad situation for you and can understand why you are stressed out, it's not nice when someone threatens to go to the police.
But as several other ops have said, Itemise what you have had to pay out since you have had him back + the rug, plus send her a copy of your agreement and have the relevant parts underlined. ((((hugs & vibes)))))) sounds like you could with them at the moment.
 
conkers said:
This sounds like a horrible experience.
Personally, I would itemise the costs that can reasonably be charged for - shoes, rugs, saddle - and send her the remaining balance. If it ends up that she 'owes' you money, then write it off. But make sure that you make her aware that you are letting her off the additional charge.
I can't understand why you wouldn't be able to do this. After all, that is why you took a deposit.

On a totally different note. Is that Bromley farm in your photo?
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i think its middleton park in my picture, and i have made sure i have receipts for everything (im a bit of a freak when collecting receipts for everything)

Physio - £160 (4sessions needed)
Shoes - £55
Rug - £120
Saddle - lost cause just have to live with it......could have a new lether piece for seat but would cost a ridiculous amount sending it off and noone really sees it but still upset me considering it was new.
Travel expenses - £25
 
jemima_too said:
When you say "some time ago" and "blizzard" I'm assuming it was several months ago. In which case why on earth have you left it until now to try to sort it out. Return her her money provided she returns you the rug and if you're going to loan in future make sure you have a better understanding of the capabilities of the person you are intending to entrust your horse to.
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it was a couple of months ago and before any of the problems started i asked for the rug and she just said she couldnt find it......(someone from her yard who had left speculated she had sold it, apparently she had a tendency to do things like that) well blizzard was extreme it was pouring it down horrendously a little sleety/haily too and incredibly windy.
 
The police would not be interested, you have committed no crime.
If she keeps pestering you, invoice her for your expenses including loss of rug, let it add up to £5.00 under the bond and send her a cheque, if she cashes it, she has agreed to your accounting.
Block her on mobile and email.
Forget it.
 
Echo Bravo said:
What a sad situation for you and can understand why you are stressed out, it's not nice when someone threatens to go to the police.
But as several other ops have said, Itemise what you have had to pay out since you have had him back + the rug, plus send her a copy of your agreement and have the relevant parts underlined. ((((hugs & vibes)))))) sounds like you could with them at the moment.
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She has a copy of the agreement thats why she hasnt actually contacted the police because she hasnt a leg to stand on really and i have receipts and dates for all things where cost is involved and i saved all phonecall lists,text messages and emails from her...some of which are very abusive and saying how so what is she scratched my saddle and took my horses shoes off and that she has lost my rug but she still wants her bond back.
 
Bearing in mind we all have one side of the story... Surely you were comfortable with her taking the horse away to treat as her own so I don't see how you can object to the shoeing. I presume you have no proof the saddle was in perfect condition before she took it so I can't see how you can make her pay for that , the rug should have been returned or deduct from the bond if she has lost it, and as for the physio he could have slipped anywhere and if I were her I wouldn't consider paying treatment costs for a horse I no longer had unless it was in the contract. I thinknits unfair to say she's telling you stories you don't know how it behaved without you around... I have to question Why would she lie about all of this? Be thankful you got the horse back, deduct the rug and return the bond and move on.
 
amymay said:
Why are you including the physio charge??
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if she was keeping him it would be her responsability to have it done anyway and i had sent him with a clean bill of health........i know its loaning and im still the owner but if i had sold him and he had injured himself between leaving me and arriving at his new yard they wouldn't expect me to pay for it..............you seem like you think she is in the right here but she signed an agreement and she took him LWVTB.........i have loaned (LWVTB) a horse from someone in the past and i paid for everything like he was my own, physio,vet etc
 
It's horrible for you to have to go through this but looking at it from the loaner's point of view she's taken on a horse she believed to be perfect for her and within 7 days everything has gone to pot. I don't think she should be held responsible for the physio charges as it's just an unfortunate situation and from your post it sounds like you took the horse back forcibly because you weren't happy with the care it was getting so to me by doing that you've taken on the financial responsibilty for the physio.
I'd give her the full bond back in exchange for your rug, providing you have proof the rug went to her? Hopefully you itemised all the rugs in the agreement.

About the shoes.. if she had it on loan with a view to buy, in my opinion (unless stated in writing otherwise) she can have the horse shod or barefoot.
 
blueneonrainbow said:
Bearing in mind we all have one side of the story... Surely you were comfortable with her taking the horse away to treat as her own so I don't see how you can object to the shoeing. I presume you have no proof the saddle was in perfect condition before she took it so I can't see how you can make her pay for that , the rug should have been returned or deduct from the bond if she has lost it, and as for the physio he could have slipped anywhere and if I were her I wouldn't consider paying treatment costs for a horse I no longer had unless it was in the contract. I thinknits unfair to say she's telling you stories you don't know how it behaved without you around... I have to question Why would she lie about all of this? Be thankful you got the horse back, deduct the rug and return the bond and move on.
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Would you loan a horse and have its brand new shoes taken off 3 days into you loan without consulting the owner??? ive loaned before and had the freedom to do as i pleased and i paid all costs but i still asked the owner about certain things which werent really my place to decide. and the saddle was 4 weeks old and ridden in 7 times i have outside people who can vouch that it was handed to the lady in pristine condition one of which is a family friend, the yard owner(that i keep mine at) and she is a qualified saddler she actually got the saddle from the tackroom for me that morning whilst i was dealing with paperwork....................oh and Bonds are there for a reason if she breaches the contract she loses her bond.
 
_Charli_ said:
It's horrible for you to have to go through this but looking at it from the loaner's point of view she's taken on a horse she believed to be perfect for her and within 7 days everything has gone to pot. I don't think she should be held responsible for the physio charges as it's just an unfortunate situation and from your post it sounds like you took the horse back forcibly because you weren't happy with the care it was getting so to me by doing that you've taken on the financial responsibilty for the physio.
I'd give her the full bond back in exchange for your rug, providing you have proof the rug went to her? Hopefully you itemised all the rugs in the agreement.

About the shoes.. if she had it on loan with a view to buy, in my opinion (unless stated in writing otherwise) she can have the horse shod or barefoot.
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all his belongings that she took with her where on the agreement and the estimated value next to them. as for the shoes she still should have mentioned it or asked before hand i would never do that to someones horse even if it was LWVTB
 
Help a confused elderly person here :o If the horse went out on loan and you took it back 2 months ago, does that mean the whole "who owes who" thing still has not been sorted out?

Just to add, I ride many new horses within a day or two of them arriving. I'm not of the camp that says horses need however many days to settle in, best just getting on with it and start as you mean to go on.

If it was me I would have asked for my rug back and returned the bond but then I can't be bothered with these sorts of hassles in my life. Maybe you should not have to return it but honestly, is it really worth all this upset?
 
I don't understand what you hoped to achieve posting this? a lot of people have given the same comments and you just argue with each one. Clearly you have no intention of returning any part of her bond no matter what.
 
horsegirl said:
I don't understand what you hoped to achieve posting this? a lot of people have given the same comments and you just argue with each one. Clearly you have no intention of returning any part of her bond no matter what.
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The comments have been very mixed!! i just wanted a rough idea of what others would do in my situation, even though its a bit more difficult to explain than how i have. i told her i didnt want to loan but she pestered and told me she really wanted him so i considered it and it has wasted so much time loaning him and i regret it...im not returning the bond until she returns the rug and thats what ive said to her...how much more reasonable can i be?? what would you do if you was her?? give the £120 rug back and get your £250 back or pretend to have lost the rug like she has.(that is my main issue of why i refuse to give her it back) as i mentioned to someone earlier somebody who was at the same yard as her told me she thought the lady had sold the rug.
 
vroutledge said:
...im not returning the bond until she returns the rug and thats what ive said to her...how much more reasonable can i be?? what would you do if you was her?? give the £120 rug back and get your £250 back or pretend to have lost the rug like she has.(that is my main issue of why i refuse to give her it back) as i mentioned to someone earlier somebody who was at the same yard as her told me she thought the lady had sold the rug.
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Sorry, but it seems so simple to me. Send her the balance of £130 in full and final payment.
 
It all sounds a very strange agreement on both sides.

From what I understood, the lady, who YOU decided was ok to take your horse on, rang you every day within the first week because she was upset or worried and having problems, but you just advised her to wait and let it settle - this is how problems escalate... If I "adored" my horse I would have been over there to look at what was going on, and been trying to help. When you did go over there and found your horse unshod and lame you still let them have another chance - most people would have taken their horse home if they were worried...

When you loan a horse out you have a contract saying how you want the horse to be kept - this includes shoes etc, otherwise it is generally up to the loaner - they are taking on care of the horse.. Also, when you send tack and rugs you have to accept that they are going to deteriorate in condition. Generally rugs should be replaced, like for like, but most tack is going to wear, and it wouldn't be right to claim for that. Its a shame that it got scratched, but it a case of "these things happen".. She should replace the rug - it doesn't matter what happened to it or who told you what, so deduct for the rug unless she replaces it. I don't really see how you can claim for shoes unless you actually put in the contract that she shoe the horse - otherwise its her choice to take them off and yours to put them back on. Re the physio, unless you can actually prove that the horse has had to have physio (ie vet's referral), and insurance co prob wouldn't pay for it, so why should she? Its a grey area really. I would offer to pay half if I were her, but I don't know what else has gone on. She is obviously just as upset as you are by it all. If you look at it from her side, she has had a rough time too. I feel a bit sorry for you both. It sounds as though not enough planning and thought went into the loan full stop.

It does come across as though both of you are being very dramatic and picky. As most people say, refund the bond except for the value of the rug, and know that you have then been as decent as you can.


Hope the horse is now sound and able to be sold.
 
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It would be my guess she has "lost" the rug because she feared not getting her bond back. I would deduct the cost of the rug and the shoes, the shoes on the basis that its an implied term that you got the horse back in similar condition to which it was sent out in. The physio costs I think might be too difficult to prove. And the travelling costs are too minimal to claim I think. Plus if you send her a cheque for something, it would make any civil case she might bring as a small claim (doubt she would though) difficult for her, as you have acted so reasonably. Send her a letter stating what the deductions are along with a cheque for £125, stating you reserve the right to claim other costs off her should she dispute it. Send it recorded delivery and keep the receipt.
 
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