Horses losing condition in the winter

Horses losing condition during the winter is usually down to poor management

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Wagtail said:
She is quite right though. It doesn't add up :o. The number disagreeing has actually gone right down. It must be the persuasive nature of the massive majority of posts made by the 'disagree' minority. :)
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Or just the massive number of new users you've created in order to vote and fudge the figures.
 
I'm going to have to do this without the proper quotations as it won't let me quote a quote and I'm not really up on the proper scripts. Thank you for replying.


A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view. That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted. Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

Having read my initial post again and the wording of the poll, I fail to see why it is at all unclear or what part of my post could be realistically described as a 'diatribe

You say you've done research, but you can't spot a biased poll question? A better question would have been "do you believe some weight loss over the winter to be healthy or unhealthy" or "can weight loss over the winter be attributed to X Y or Z" giving examples of reasons why people might allow their horses to lose a bit over the winter. This leaves the bias out. It is unclear what you're aiming at

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.
Please show where I have stated that it is fact. They are my beliefs, yes.

You have on several occasions stated that horses losing weight is bad for them because it slows their metabolism. You stated that as a fact (I'm sorry, I'm not wading through 37 pages of posts to quote every single time), just as a starter. You have done the same with several other "facts".

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!
No, the goal posts have remained the same throughout. As RutlandH2O has confirmed was his/her understanding too.

You were the one who suddenly introduced the idea that you wanted to hear the excuses of those who just let their horses lose weight because they were cheap several pages in. That's definitely moving the goalposts. One person agreeing with you doesn't make you right, it means one person read it the way you were thinking it. The rest of us quite clearly don't. The way it sounds in your head isn't always the way it comes across on the net.

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism). It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode. It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter. It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved. Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven. Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing.

I have seen MASSIVE weight losses on many horses supposedly cared for by experienced horse people. And they see nothing wrong with it. I agree that yes it is 'starvation mode' that lowers metabolism, but this can be triggered within a surprisingly small amount of time in humans (diet studies). I don't think there are any specific studies relating to horses and so yes, this is my belief that it would be similar across species as it is such a basic survival mechanism.

See, you're changing the goalposts again. You didn't ask about MASSIVE weight loss, you asked about weight loss. Starvation mode takes a huge reduction in necessary calories even in humans (whose body mass is smaller than a horse). Starvation mode involves the body using up muscles as fuel, so we're talking about a VAST reduction in body weight, not allowing the horse to get a little ribby (do feel free to read up on starvation mode
http://www.livestrong.com/article/458832-signs-symptoms-of-starvation-mode/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation_response

There is however a huge difference between a response in a 60kg human omnivore designed to eat a couple of times a day and a 600kg herbivore designed to eat pretty much all the time. You can't compare apples with oranges. Allowing the horse to lose a bit of weight over the winter (and incidentally we humans did this too before central heating and heaters) doesn't trigger a starvation response, it's just natural.

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed. Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc. So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?

If a horse is too fat after summer then yes, some weight loss should be healthy. My argument was against horses dropping weight after being in GOOD condition. I still do not believe that dropping weight over winter is healthier for horses than maintaining a constant good condition throughout the year.

See you didn't say that either. Regardless, it's not a question of what you believe or don't believe. Provide some actual scientific basis for that statement, or it is just a belief. I can believe the grass is blue, it doesn't make it correct. There is also a wide range of "good condition" for a horse. They can be at the upper end and the lower end and it would still be losing weight-in some cases, quite a lot of weight.


You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid. Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management. It's not. It's good management. Except where it isn't because there is already poor management.

No, I asked a very simple question 'Is horses losing condition during winter usually down to poor management? The fact that I believe that SOME people allow their horses to do this for financial reasons is neither here nor there. I wanted to know what others thought. 11 % agreed that it WAS usually down to poor management and 50% agreed that it was usually down to poor management with a few exceptions. Leaving only 40% who disagreed.

Your statements in your OP and further along states that horses dropping condition is poor management. You were the one that then brought in the idea that you'd worded it the way you had because you wanted to know about the ones who did it for financial reasons.

You can't take that percentage as remotely accurate as I've already pointed out that your poll is wildly unscientific and biased. The people who disagreed may have read the whole thread before voting rather than after-something I nearly did myself.

Now, I've not been rude, histrionic or anything else. I'm simply pointing out fallacies and factual inaccuracies.
 
why1040 said:
I'm going to have to do this without the proper quotations as it won't let me quote a quote and I'm not really up on the proper scripts. Thank you for replying.


A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view. That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted. Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

Having read my initial post again and the wording of the poll, I fail to see why it is at all unclear or what part of my post could be realistically described as a 'diatribe


You say you've done research, but you can't spot a biased poll question? A better question would have been "do you believe some weight loss over the winter to be healthy or unhealthy" or "can weight loss over the winter be attributed to X Y or Z" giving examples of reasons why people might allow their horses to lose a bit over the winter. This leaves the bias out. It is unclear what you're aiming at

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.
Please show where I have stated that it is fact. They are my beliefs, yes.

You have on several occasions stated that horses losing weight is bad for them because it slows their metabolism. You stated that as a fact (I'm sorry, I'm not wading through 37 pages of posts to quote every single time), just as a starter. You have done the same with several other "facts".

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!
No, the goal posts have remained the same throughout. As RutlandH2O has confirmed was his/her understanding too.

You were the one who suddenly introduced the idea that you wanted to hear the excuses of those who just let their horses lose weight because they were cheap several pages in. That's definitely moving the goalposts. One person agreeing with you doesn't make you right, it means one person read it the way you were thinking it. The rest of us quite clearly don't. The way it sounds in your head isn't always the way it comes across on the net.

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism). It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode. It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter. It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved. Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven. Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing.

I have seen MASSIVE weight losses on many horses supposedly cared for by experienced horse people. And they see nothing wrong with it. I agree that yes it is 'starvation mode' that lowers metabolism, but this can be triggered within a surprisingly small amount of time in humans (diet studies). I don't think there are any specific studies relating to horses and so yes, this is my belief that it would be similar across species as it is such a basic survival mechanism.

See, you're changing the goalposts again. You didn't ask about MASSIVE weight loss, you asked about weight loss. Starvation mode takes a huge reduction in necessary calories even in humans (whose body mass is smaller than a horse). Starvation mode involves the body using up muscles as fuel, so we're talking about a VAST reduction in body weight, not allowing the horse to get a little ribby (do feel free to read up on starvation mode
http://www.livestrong.com/article/458832-signs-symptoms-of-starvation-mode/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation_response

There is however a huge difference between a response in a 60kg human omnivore designed to eat a couple of times a day and a 600kg herbivore designed to eat pretty much all the time. You can't compare apples with oranges. Allowing the horse to lose a bit of weight over the winter (and incidentally we humans did this too before central heating and heaters) doesn't trigger a starvation response, it's just natural.

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed. Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc. So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?

If a horse is too fat after summer then yes, some weight loss should be healthy. My argument was against horses dropping weight after being in GOOD condition. I still do not believe that dropping weight over winter is healthier for horses than maintaining a constant good condition throughout the year.

See you didn't say that either. Regardless, it's not a question of what you believe or don't believe. Provide some actual scientific basis for that statement, or it is just a belief. I can believe the grass is blue, it doesn't make it correct. There is also a wide range of "good condition" for a horse. They can be at the upper end and the lower end and it would still be losing weight-in some cases, quite a lot of weight.


You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid. Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management. It's not. It's good management. Except where it isn't because there is already poor management.

No, I asked a very simple question 'Is horses losing condition during winter usually down to poor management? The fact that I believe that SOME people allow their horses to do this for financial reasons is neither here nor there. I wanted to know what others thought. 11 % agreed that it WAS usually down to poor management and 50% agreed that it was usually down to poor management with a few exceptions. Leaving only 40% who disagreed.

Your statements in your OP and further along states that horses dropping condition is poor management. You were the one that then brought in the idea that you'd worded it the way you had because you wanted to know about the ones who did it for financial reasons.

You can't take that percentage as remotely accurate as I've already pointed out that your poll is wildly unscientific and biased. The people who disagreed may have read the whole thread before voting rather than after-something I nearly did myself.

Now, I've not been rude, histrionic or anything else. I'm simply pointing out fallacies and factual inaccuracies.
Click to expand...

And you haven't resorted to applying incorrect adjectives by way of backhanded insults. Based on what you have written, you'd never get into RADA :D
 
why1040 said:
I'm going to have to do this without the proper quotations as it won't let me quote a quote and I'm not really up on the proper scripts. Thank you for replying.


A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view. That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted. Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

Having read my initial post again and the wording of the poll, I fail to see why it is at all unclear or what part of my post could be realistically described as a 'diatribe

You say you've done research, but you can't spot a biased poll question? A better question would have been "do you believe some weight loss over the winter to be healthy or unhealthy" or "can weight loss over the winter be attributed to X Y or Z" giving examples of reasons why people might allow their horses to lose a bit over the winter. This leaves the bias out. It is unclear what you're aiming at

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.
Please show where I have stated that it is fact. They are my beliefs, yes.

You have on several occasions stated that horses losing weight is bad for them because it slows their metabolism. You stated that as a fact (I'm sorry, I'm not wading through 37 pages of posts to quote every single time), just as a starter. You have done the same with several other "facts".

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!
No, the goal posts have remained the same throughout. As RutlandH2O has confirmed was his/her understanding too.

You were the one who suddenly introduced the idea that you wanted to hear the excuses of those who just let their horses lose weight because they were cheap several pages in. That's definitely moving the goalposts. One person agreeing with you doesn't make you right, it means one person read it the way you were thinking it. The rest of us quite clearly don't. The way it sounds in your head isn't always the way it comes across on the net.

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism). It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode. It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter. It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved. Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven. Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing.

I have seen MASSIVE weight losses on many horses supposedly cared for by experienced horse people. And they see nothing wrong with it. I agree that yes it is 'starvation mode' that lowers metabolism, but this can be triggered within a surprisingly small amount of time in humans (diet studies). I don't think there are any specific studies relating to horses and so yes, this is my belief that it would be similar across species as it is such a basic survival mechanism.

See, you're changing the goalposts again. You didn't ask about MASSIVE weight loss, you asked about weight loss. Starvation mode takes a huge reduction in necessary calories even in humans (whose body mass is smaller than a horse). Starvation mode involves the body using up muscles as fuel, so we're talking about a VAST reduction in body weight, not allowing the horse to get a little ribby (do feel free to read up on starvation mode
http://www.livestrong.com/article/458832-signs-symptoms-of-starvation-mode/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation_response

There is however a huge difference between a response in a 60kg human omnivore designed to eat a couple of times a day and a 600kg herbivore designed to eat pretty much all the time. You can't compare apples with oranges. Allowing the horse to lose a bit of weight over the winter (and incidentally we humans did this too before central heating and heaters) doesn't trigger a starvation response, it's just natural.

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed. Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc. So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?

If a horse is too fat after summer then yes, some weight loss should be healthy. My argument was against horses dropping weight after being in GOOD condition. I still do not believe that dropping weight over winter is healthier for horses than maintaining a constant good condition throughout the year.

See you didn't say that either. Regardless, it's not a question of what you believe or don't believe. Provide some actual scientific basis for that statement, or it is just a belief. I can believe the grass is blue, it doesn't make it correct. There is also a wide range of "good condition" for a horse. They can be at the upper end and the lower end and it would still be losing weight-in some cases, quite a lot of weight.


You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid. Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management. It's not. It's good management. Except where it isn't because there is already poor management.

No, I asked a very simple question 'Is horses losing condition during winter usually down to poor management? The fact that I believe that SOME people allow their horses to do this for financial reasons is neither here nor there. I wanted to know what others thought. 11 % agreed that it WAS usually down to poor management and 50% agreed that it was usually down to poor management with a few exceptions. Leaving only 40% who disagreed.

Your statements in your OP and further along states that horses dropping condition is poor management. You were the one that then brought in the idea that you'd worded it the way you had because you wanted to know about the ones who did it for financial reasons.

You can't take that percentage as remotely accurate as I've already pointed out that your poll is wildly unscientific and biased. The people who disagreed may have read the whole thread before voting rather than after-something I nearly did myself.

Now, I've not been rude, histrionic or anything else. I'm simply pointing out fallacies and factual inaccuracies.
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LIKE
 
I think this is the nastiest case of bullying I have ever seen on this forum (and have seen a few). People should be ashamed of themselves, honestly. Wagtail your responses are measured and I don't know how you have the patience but I hope you are as ok as you seem to be with this!
 
Wagtail Why do you find it so difficult to accept that horses can look in the same excellent condition throughout winter and summer? That is very strange.
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Because it's not how they would do it! The fact it is the keeper who is interfering (further than is wise) to keep them thus, is a major contributing factor to the many metabolic issues we see today. Combined with the ever-increasing and bewildering array of available mixes and supplements and proportionally decreasing basic knowledge of 'Joe horse-owner' (which ironically forms the underlying true interpretation of this thread's title poll) we have the reason for so much dietary-linked disease in the horse and pony population today.
 
skewby said:
I think this is the nastiest case of bullying I have ever seen on this forum (and have seen a few). People should be ashamed of themselves, honestly. Wagtail your responses are measured and I don't know how you have the patience but I hope you are as ok as you seem to be with this!
Click to expand...

Wagtail has also resorted to thinly veiled insults, accusing one poster of 'histrionics'. Hardly a flattering thing to say about the author of an easy to assimilate piece of scientific 'soundness' which contained no hints of vitriol or over dramatic/emotional undertones. In fact the OP openly admitted to having dismissed the majority of the reply purely due to it's attention-seeking tone. :rolleyes:
 
skewby said:
I think this is the nastiest case of bullying I have ever seen on this forum (and have seen a few). People should be ashamed of themselves, honestly. Wagtail your responses are measured and I don't know how you have the patience but I hope you are as ok as you seem to be with this!
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Thanks Skewby. Yes, they are quite a pack, aren't they? Thing is they are up in arms because I have touched a nerve. No, it doesn't hurt me, but I am disappointed that people can act this way. I see it time and time again on this forum. Some poor sod makes an error or says something 'novicy' and they are ridiculed! The only time I really take it seriously is when people act like this and then start trying to guess who the real person is behind the identity they are attacking. That is when it starts to get sinister and pretty disturbing. If people can act like this on a forum what kind of people must they be in real life? Or is it a bit like 'road rage'? Very interesting really.

But Amymay is quite right. I AM on a hiding to nothing. Why I bother, I really don't know. :)
 
Wagtail.

Can I just suggest something here.

It's a suggestion, mind.

You don't have to follow it.

But if you run such a fabulous livery yard and are such an expert, then you get off internet forums, stop having spats with people you don't know, and actually go and run this yard?

In the duration of this thread you have posted from 7am in the morning to goodness knows when at night.

Now I only have one horse, and I can't keep up with this thread for caring for my one horse. So only the Gods must know how you can run a livery yard and post on here 25 hours a day...
 
Whoa, look at this thing! I'm having flashbacks to the Totilas' shoes thread :p.

My two penneth would be that whilst in the wild horses would naturally drop weight over winter and have evolved to cope with this (kind of like humans used to...) they haven't evolved to cope with dropping weight in winter AND stay in full work. So no, I don't let my horse drop weight in the winter.

And I really can't see what the fuss is about!
 
Wagtail - I don't mean to be mean at all (and I mean it!) but I do find the tone of your posts very patronising. You obviously have very strong opinions about things, which is fine, but there is something about your tone which strikes me as 'I know lots, you know nothing - look at my qualifications over the years!' and it just seems to rub people up the wrong way. Things seem to quickly descend into posts which shout "What a shame dear, you've resorted to personal insults :rolleyes:" and the sarcasm coming from all corners is just too much!

Perhaps you should consider how you come across in posts. Even if you DO know everything and ARE genuinely smarter than everyone else on that post, it is good to come across as willing to accept corrections and opinions and to show that you don't have to be the best/most knowledgable/most experienced at all times...
 
Am I being deluded if I say I find the wording of your proposed message a bit of a fib ?
ie "a small minority"
Surely that should read a "huge majority"? or
"Virtually everyone that has replied to my original post disagreed with me ? " !!!!
 
I don't know if I should post again in here or not, as it just seems to keep on going! :o

However, as for the survival mechanisms of horses and humans, they really are quite different! It was quoted that starvation mode would be triggered in a short space of time as it was in humans.

Horses have various adaptations that help them to survive in cold conditions, this article is quite informative:- http://www.paardnatuurlijk.nl/index_js.htm?http://www.paardnatuurlijk.nl/weetjes/howwarm.htm
 
Interesting article. I would like to see some proper peer reviewed research done into this as there does not appear to be any. One thing I completely agree with is that digesting lots of fibre makes horses warmer. That is another good reason, I feel to always ensure they have lots of hay or haylage if the grass is poor over the winter. Of course, horses are very different to humans regarding their digestion and metabolic rate amongst most other things. There is loads of research into the effectiveness of crash diets for humans and how they can actually cause people to gain weight quicker once they are off the diet. This may, or may not apply to horses. Personally I don't see why it shouldn't but that is just my opinion.
 
Wagtail, although I disagreed with you on the poll, I think you have stood your ground exceptionally well. I see the BUMs (see a long ago post) are out in force and they like to give it out but seem to get incredibly poisonous when having to take it. Such is life. Personally, I would tell them they are all right, thoroughly decent human beings and no offence taken at their rhetoric. Their aim will be to keep this thread going for as long as possible to enable them to vent whatever venom they have stored in their being and thus relieve themselves of it. Don't give them the pleasure.:)
 
blazingsaddles said:
Wagtail, although I disagreed with you on the poll, I think you have stood your ground exceptionally well. I see the BUMs (see a long ago post) are out in force and they like to give it out but seem to get incredibly poisonous when having to take it. Such is life. Personally, I would tell them they are all right, thoroughly decent human beings and no offence taken at their rhetoric. Their aim will be to keep this thread going for as long as possible to enable them to vent whatever venom they have stored in their being and thus relieve themselves of it. Don't give them the pleasure.:)
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Thank you blazing saddles. So nice to read a mature post. Nothing at all wrong in having different opinions where horses are concerned. My closest friend and I are on different sides on many horsey issues! Just a shame that things get so nasty on here. I will take your advice and leave this thread to the BUMs. No good feeding them any more - wouldn't want them to gain too much weight. ;)
 
Wagtail said:
I don't know Martlin. You are encouraging people to google a business website. You are not anonymous yourself, and if someone emails them and points them to this thread it could be seen as defamatory. They could sue. If it is the website I think it is, they look like they would have the money too. Just saying. It's one thing having an argument on a forum, a complete new ball game making assumptions about real identities (right or wrong) and thinking it clever to do this on a public forum. To think that you are an instructor too and you behave like this?
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Sorry but you are talking drivel - no one has said anything in the least bit defamatory (unless you think that it being perceived as YOUR yard is defamatory) au contrair people have said what a nice yard it is!
 
bakedbean said:
Selective ridicule of other members..mmmm..
Another classic case of Thread Diversion. If things aren't quite going in the direction that the OP had hoped for, then divert.
But, as a master of "moving the goalposts" i'm surprised you dont have a part time job with the ground staff at Man Utd.
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Ahh, but when one has no reasonable argument, the only remaining recourse is ridicule. Course if anyone else does it, it's bullying...
 
P.S. - Do I count as the Founder of BUM? As very few, Kieran, Giles and BBs, have come close to being banned as many times as I have! And I told two of them how to ban evade!!

P.P.S. - I have never hidden my true identity... if people haven't twigged that Bundle and I both have amazingly similar horses and lifestyles then that's not my problem!!!
 
skewby said:
I think this is the nastiest case of bullying I have ever seen on this forum (and have seen a few). People should be ashamed of themselves, honestly. Wagtail your responses are measured and I don't know how you have the patience but I hope you are as ok as you seem to be with this!
Click to expand...

Why do you ALWAYS claim that people are being bullied when people disagree with them? As far as I can see nobody has resorted to insults, we are all free to agree or disagree, in this instance more people disagree with the OP than agree with her, but she did post a poll!
 
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