Horses losing condition in the winter

Horses losing condition during the winter is usually down to poor management

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No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
 
why1040 said:
Okay, I got to page 26 before I gave up and just had to say something.

To the OP:
A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view. That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted. Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism). It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode. It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter. It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved. Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven. Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing.

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed. Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc. So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid. Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management. It's not. It's good management. Except where it isn't because there is already poor management.
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Wagtail, I pointed out several pages back that the horses metabolism goes up in winter due to the cold and you totally ignored that too! I for one would have been genuinely interested to see you reply to this, I don't have a degree or a research background but knew this to be correct because I understand the way a horse's system works, something I looked into when researching equine nutrition to make sure I did the best I could for my horses! I think the response you gave left you wide open to ridicule because WHY1040 was not rude and it just looked like you were making excuses because you knew you were wrong regarding this. If you had the guts to admit when you were wrong then you may be taken a little more seriously. Personally I think you probably have a lot of experience that you should be able to share, but you need to be cautious to make sure that what is your opinion and what is fact is clear, in order to avoid novices following you and making mistakes. You do appear to quote 'facts' that are actually just your opinion and in some cases have been wrong. It is not so bad to back down and can be done honourably rather than just making yourself look silly by continuing to stand by facts that have been proven to be incorrect.
 
Wagtail said:
No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
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But Martlin didn't name any yard.... just said your website could be found with some imaginative googling I believe? YOU'RE the one who has jumped to conclusions about which yard is being discussed...
 
Wagtail said:
No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
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Well I will save you the trouble of emailing then wagtail.

I can state that Wagtail is NOT the yard owner of the nice looking yard that Martlin may have alluded to in a past comment.

There.....are we all happy now?
 
Wagtail said:
No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
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FGS Wagtail, assuming the yard you are thinking of emailing is a neighbour of yours, or even somewhere in the same county, just think about what you are saying. It is bad enough making yourself look silly on here without moving it into real life too.
 
Wagtail said:
No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
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PML

No one has at any point named the yard in question, nor given any real detail as to how one would go about googling for it.

Also...defamation: the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant). (courtesy of Wikipedia-I know, I know, but it was a good definition)

As far as I can see, no one has at any stage said anything that is demonstrably false. Calling you on factual errors or disagreeing with your statements isn't defamation (nor is it rude, fyi).
 
PopStrop said:
But Martlin didn't name any yard.... just said your website could be found with some imaginative googling I believe? YOU'RE the one who has jumped to conclusions about which yard is being discussed...
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Precisely :)
I merely pointed out that one can easily find you on Google... If it's not true, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, do you now? :)
 
hch4971 said:
Wagtail, I pointed out several pages back that the horses metabolism goes up in winter due to the cold and you totally ignored that too! I for one would have been genuinely interested to see you reply to this, I don't have a degree or a research background but knew this to be correct because I understand the way a horse's system works, something I looked into when researching equine nutrition to make sure I did the best I could for my horses! I think the response you gave left you wide open to ridicule because WHY1040 was not rude and it just looked like you were making excuses because you knew you were wrong regarding this. If you had the guts to admit when you were wrong then you may be taken a little more seriously. Personally I think you probably have a lot of experience that you should be able to share, but you need to be cautious to make sure that what is your opinion and what is fact is clear, in order to avoid novices following you and making mistakes. You do appear to quote 'facts' that are actually just your opinion and in some cases have been wrong. It is not so bad to back down and can be done honourably rather than just making yourself look silly by continuing to stand by facts that have been proven to be incorrect.
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I may well agree with every word. I do not know as I stopped reading after the first paragraph due to its histrionic tone. I will give the rest of it a read since you put it so politely.
 
martlin said:
Precisely :)
I merely pointed out that one can easily find you on Google... If it's not true, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, do you now? :)
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I don't, no. But maybe you should think before you drag innocents into your battles. I always think it is extremely sinister character trait of some people on forums such as this when they start to try and impinge on others real lives, and something that I always make a point of highlighting whether it is about me or about any other member. I wonder what motivates these people? Bunny boiler comes to mind.
 
Dear Wagtail, I think you are imagining battles I am supposed to have. I'm nosy, comment on things I see fit to comment on and that's about it, really.
I wonder why you want to split your life into real and... I don't know, imaginary perhaps? :)
 
Wagtail said:
I don't, no. But maybe you should think before you drag innocents into your battles. I always think it is extremely sinister character trait of some people on forums such as this when they start to try and impinge on others real lives, and something that I always make a point of highlighting whether it is about me or about any other member. I wonder what motivates these people? Bunny boiler comes to mind.
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Yes, it does, but not with regards to Martlin!
Honestly, she gave NO details, and the only comments about the website she alluded to were positive anyway.
Seriously, are you just looking for anything to argue about, and then grabbing it and running with it? Most odd.
 
Wagtail said:
I may well agree with every word. I do not know as I stopped reading after the first paragraph due to its histrionic tone. I will give the rest of it a read since you put it so politely.
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Are you sure it's 'histrionic' you mean? :confused: You might be up for legal action if you infer someone to be 'attention-seeking' and seductively flirtatious' in a purely factual piece of writing! :rolleyes:
 
brighteyes said:
Are you sure it's 'histrionic' you mean? :confused: You might be up for legal action if you infer someone to be 'attention-seeking' and seductively flirtatious' in a purely factual piece of writing! :rolleyes:
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LMAO! I was most decidedly NOT seductively flirtatious! :D:D:D

Are we back to discussing defamation? ;)

One might be tempted to think someone is avoiding certain issues...but that would be rude, wouldn't it? :p
 
Wagtail said:
No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
Click to expand...

my husband has spent much time in psyciatric units, I can give you some advice if needed?:D
 
Okay, this is my reply Why1040 for you all to jump on. ;)

why1040 said:
Okay, I got to page 26 before I gave up and just had to say something.

To the OP:
A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view. That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted. Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

Having read my initial post again and the wording of the poll, I fail to see why it is at all unclear or what part of my post could be realistically described as a 'diatribe

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.
Please show where I have stated that it is fact. They are my beliefs, yes.][/B

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!
No, the goal posts have remained the same throughout. As RutlandH2O has confirmed was his/her understanding too.

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism). It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode. It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter. It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved. Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven. Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing. I have seen MASSIVE weight losses on many horses supposedly cared for by experienced horse people. And they see nothing wrong with it. I agree that yes it is 'starvation mode' that lowers metabolism, but this can be triggered within a surprisingly small amount of time in humans (diet studies). I don't think there are any specific studies relating to horses and so yes, this is my belief that it would be similar across species as it is such a basic survival mechanism.

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed. Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc. So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?

If a horse is too fat after summer then yes, some weight loss should be healthy. My argument was against horses dropping weight after being in GOOD condition. I still do not believe that dropping weight over winter is healthier for horses than maintaining a constant good condition throughout the year.

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid. Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management. It's not. It's good management. Except where it isn't because there is already poor management. No, I asked a very simple question 'Is horses losing condition during winter usually down to poor management? The fact that I believe that SOME people allow their horses to do this for financial reasons is neither here nor there. I wanted to know what others thought. 11 % agreed that it WAS usually down to poor management and 50% agreed that it was usually down to poor management with a few exceptions. Leaving only 40% who disagreed.
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Well, ignoring all the rest as I really cba, lets deal with hard figures. 11% think poor mgt, 50% agree poor mgt with exceptions, 40% disagree. That is 101%.

Lies, damned lies and statistics, eh?
 
Oh stop it! I'm supposed to be working. Wagtail, seriously, get a grip. :-))

I'm old-school, horses losing a bit of weight during winter is as it should be and an indication of good management in my opinion. Made it a bit hard to decide about the survey.
 
hch4971 said:
LOL, I work in statistics and I hate them!!
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She is quite right though. It doesn't add up :o. The number disagreeing has actually gone right down. It must be the persuasive nature of the massive majority of posts made by the 'disagree' minority. :)
 
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