Horses losing condition in the winter

[Wagtail]

Well I have one in my present herd, she will not touch haylage but will eat hay quite happily. She is also very aged (32) and can drop off dramatically over winter if I don't keep an eye on her.

I agree with Spaniel that horses are actually designed to drop weight over winter and the fact that some uninformed owners think this is wrong is one of the reasons laminitis is so prevalent today.

I don't think it is so much a matter of design as being able to 'cope with' fluctuations in food availability. As I said earlier, dogs will dramatically drop weight in the winter if they live wild. Why do you not then cut down their food in the winter? They too are 'designed' for it.

I believe that horses (and dogs) are healthier if they maintain a steady ideal weight throughout the year.

ETA Laminitis is so prevalent because people put their horses out onto pasture that is too lush.

 

[Wagtail]

are you confusing FF with calm and condition?

its quite easily done, made by the same feed co., in the same colour bag and well soaked to feed.

but they achieve different things, believe it or not

No I am not confusing the two.

 

[siennamum]

I'm not talking about a dramatic weight loss. Because mine are out and live on grass & hay & nothing else (apart from vits/mins) they are more prone to the goodness in the grass and the weather conditions. The can com ein if they want and will do so if the weather is really nasty or if we have lots of mud, but that is a rare occurence.
This is last years herd coming out of winter. There is a TB, who had his rugs off for the 1st time (in the sunshine) and x2 ISH, on in the background, one youngster in the foreground. As you can see - not poor, just maintaining a reasonable condition.

 

[Hippona]

Incidentally, I think it is also bad to let horses get overweight. The yoyoing of weight from fat in the summer to thin in the winter is even worse IMO.

.

Whilst its not good for horses to get fat obviously....the gaining condition in summer and losing it in winter is natural. I read somewhere that when we try to keep our horses in good condition over winter and they enter spring already looking good...then we are increasing the risk of laminitis.

I dont starve mine over winter- they have ad-lib hay - but I purposely don't rug them unless its particularly wet. I prefer them to drop a bit of weight and go into spring leaner looking.

Mind you - mine are natives- they are looking 'good' on well-scrappy grazing right now

 

[Amaranta]

But I never understand how anyone maintains a horse's condition on only 10 kg of haylage unless they are on loads of hard feed.

Really? Perhaps you need to make a change in your stable management, either that or you have only had to manage TBs or the like!

Most horses in this country do not do enough work to need 'hard' feed and can exist totally on either good quality hay or haylage, with perhaps the addition of a vit/min supplement. Unless a horse is working hard, and by hard I mean eventing or hunting or the like, they actually don't need cereals. We should feed according to workload and far far too many horses are overfed, hence the fact we are seeing more and more nutritionally caused diseases like laminitis and EMS and calming products are the biggest selling additives in the UK.

 

[Maesfen]

Really? Perhaps you need to make a change in your stable management, either that or you have only had to manage TBs or the like!

Most horses in this country do not do enough work to need 'hard' feed and can exist totally on either good quality hay or haylage, with perhaps the addition of a vit/min supplement. Unless a horse is working hard, and by hard I mean eventing or hunting or the like, they actually don't need cereals. We should feed according to workload and far far too many horses are overfed, hence the fact we are seeing more and more nutritionally caused diseases like laminitis and EMS and calming products are the biggest selling additives in the UK.

Where's the Like button when you need it?

 

[Wagtail]

are you sure?

go on, tell me..it'll be our little secret

I caught my teenaged daughter trolling the other day. Got her banned from the internet for a couple of days. You are not her are you?

 

[touchstone]

ETA Laminitis is so prevalent because people put their horses out onto pasture that is too lush.

Not always; there is scientific research that shows an overweight horse is far more likely to develop laminitis whether on good grass or not.

 

[Spudlet]

Do you also cut down your dogs food in the winter? As if he was in the wild he would drop lots of weight as food would be scarce.

As a matter of interest - my dog did drop condition last winter because he worked, and although he was fed extra, was in good condition to begin with and only worked once a week at most he still came out of winter a bit skinnier and a lot thinner than he went in. I fully expect the same to happen this year.

I also agree that lots of horses are overfed and that hard feed is not always as vital as people think. And that for many horses, dropping a bit of chub in the winter is no bad thing!

 

[Amaranta]

ETA Laminitis is so prevalent because people put their horses out onto pasture that is too lush.

Oh dear, you really really need to read up on the causes of laminitis.

Yes, SOME cases are caused by a pasture that is too lush or stressed, but the root cause is too much starch in the diet, this can be from many areas including the overfeeding of cereals, I have known horses stabled 24/7 who have gone down with laminitis.

 

[Wagtail]

Really? Perhaps you need to make a change in your stable management, either that or you have only had to manage TBs or the like!

Most horses in this country do not do enough work to need 'hard' feed and can exist totally on either good quality hay or haylage, with perhaps the addition of a vit/min supplement. Unless a horse is working hard, and by hard I mean eventing or hunting or the like, they actually don't need cereals. We should feed according to workload and far far too many horses are overfed, hence the fact we are seeing more and more nutritionally caused diseases like laminitis and EMS and calming products are the biggest selling additives in the UK.

I care for mainly TBs and warmbloods, but also have two cobs on the yard. Yes they get quite a bit less. They practically live on fresh air and it would be hard to make them lose weight during the winter. But the others need far more than is often recommended.

 

[spaniel]

Im surprised to hear you say that if ref to warmbloods, after all they are in essence draft horse/tb crosses and IME live pretty much on fresh air unless hunting.

 

[Ibblebibble]

totally agree with all the reasons for letting horses come out of winter leaner than when they went in, nature really does know best, it's just us interfering humans who cause the problems.
comparing horses to dogs is silly, totally different feeding systems! horses are designed to feed almost continuously, little and often, dogs on the other hand are designed to eat larger meals farther apart, sometimes days apart in the wild!

 

[Amaranta]

I care for mainly TBs and warmbloods, but also have two cobs on the yard. Yes they get quite a bit less. They practically live on fresh air and it would be hard to make them lose weight during the winter. But the others need far more than is often recommended.

The TBs I can understand, but many WBs are good doers, I appreciate that not all are though. If you are having to feed that much I would be getting my pasture tested tbh as you must be one of the only yards in the country who is having to feed MORE than the manufacturers recommended levels! Most people feed far less and add a vit supplement so whilst you are at it - get your hay and haylage tested too as it does not sound up to scratch!

 

[Wagtail]

Oh dear, you really really need to read up on the causes of laminitis..

Ah an attempt to ridicule the person you are arguing with on the forum in order to score brownie points from the others. That's a real shame. I must be talking to another kid then.

Yes, SOME cases are caused by a pasture that is too lush or stressed, but the root cause is too much starch in the diet, this can be from many areas including the overfeeding of cereals, I have known horses stabled 24/7 who have gone down with laminitis.

Preaching to the converted here. My horses get lots of forage and practically no cereals.

 

[Wagtail]

Im surprised to hear you say that if ref to warmbloods, after all they are in essence draft horse/tb crosses and IME live pretty much on fresh air unless hunting.

You are joking! I only have one warmblood that is a good doer on the yard. I have a Belgian, a Danish, a Dutch, and a Hanovarian. Can you guess which one is the good doer?

 

[Baggybreeches]

. But I never understand how anyone maintains a horse's condition on only 10 kg of haylage unless they are on loads of hard feed.

Also during the winter, my horses do not go out on grass. They have haylage nets in an all weather turnout, so the 16 kg of haylage is the only forage they get.

My horses race on 14lb of haylage per day and 6lb of hard feed (Spillers slow release mix), this is more than enough for them, and they never looked the leanest horses in the paddock. Fit and toned.
Too many people feed horses far too much all year round and again it is overfeeding which is causing so much laminitis all year round.
Even now my big TB (17.1hh raw boned type) is getting 18lb of haylage with 3lb of hard feed to cover his light/medium work he looks amazing and is definitely not short of energy

 

[Amaranta]

Ah an attempt to ridicule the person you are arguing with on the forum in order to score brownie points from the others. That's a real shame. I must be talking to another kid.

I don't feel the need to point score, and I was not arguing but debating, you obviously do not know the difference. I merely pointed out that you should read up on laminitis as there were obvious gaps in your knowledge on it. But I see you feel you are losing this 'argument' and have felt the need to get personal - shame really

 

[rhino]

You are joking! I only have one warmblood that is a good doer on the yard. I have a Belgian, a Danish, a Dutch, and a Hanovarian. Can you guess which one is the good doer?

Is it the BWP? If not, then my boy has the 'fat genes' for both of them

 

[Lady La La]

Preaching to the converted here. My horses get lots of forage and practically no cereals.

no cereals... just comp mix

 

[Wagtail]

My horses race on 14lb of haylage per day and 6lb of hard feed (Spillers slow release mix), this is more than enough for them, and they never looked the leanest horses in the paddock. Fit and toned.
Too many people feed horses far too much all year round and again it is overfeeding which is causing so much laminitis all year round.
Even now my big TB (17.1hh raw boned type) is getting 18lb of haylage with 3lb of hard feed to cover his light/medium work he looks amazing and is definitely not short of energy

I would not expect him to be (if you mean kg) You must be talking about kg not lbs surely? 18lb of haylage is bearly a haynet and a half. 3 lb of feed is bearly a scoop.

 

[Dolcé]

I do agree that horses CAN be kept looking just as good in winter as they do in summer but I disagreed in the poll. We deliberately allow ours to lose both weight and condition over winter, not quite to negligence levels but certainly on the lean side. Since deciding on this, which was accidental the first time I admit due to a change in circumstances meaning ad lib hay or haylage but no hard feed, we have had some interesting results. We have had no signs of lami whatsoever in the 4 very susceptible ones, including the one who is very portly and the only one of 14 NOT to lose weight, more interesting is the one who has been completely cured of sweet itch. This boy was home bred and had worn a rug 24/7/365 from his first winter because the minute you took it off he started rubbing. He has now not worn a rug of any kind, nor been treated in any way for sweet itch, since the winter 2009/10. He does not rub at all and has a full mane and tail for the first time in his life.

Whilst we allow the drop in condition I should explain that none are working in any way at the moment, all live out and all are monitored very closely to check they do not lose too much, there is a big difference between what the tb and warmbloods are allowed to drop compared to the native ponies.

ETA we don't ever feed cereals any more, all hard feed is forage based and the ponies are fed hay or haylage weighed according to their needs.

 

[Baggybreeches]

I would not expect him to be (if you mean kg) You must be talking about kg not lbs surely? 18lb of haylage is bearly a haynet and a half. 3 lb of feed is bearly a scoop.

Nope I do mean lbs. Which exactly illustrates my point, that horses are overfed by vast quantities. 'Save your purse, save your pony' should be the BHS's welfare strapline!

 

[Wagtail]

no cereals... just comp mix

Yes, the two that compete regularly get a scoop of comp mix a day. Sometimes one has to have two scoops a day if his owner wants him to have more oomph. The others have virtually no cereals at all.

Are you trying to imply that they will get laminitis?

 

[Wagtail]

I don't feel the need to point score, and I was not arguing but debating, you obviously do not know the difference. I merely pointed out that you should read up on laminitis as there were obvious gaps in your knowledge on it. But I see you feel you are losing this 'argument' and have felt the need to get personal - shame really

Rather than trying to look clever by attacking the other person. Try sticking to the subject at hand and maybe you won't come across as point scoring. Debating is discussing the matter at hand, not the person you are arguing with.

For the record, I have never once had a horse with laminitis in all my years of caring for horses. That is a fact. If you think that means I have a lack of knowledge then so be it. I know otherwise.

 

[Wagtail]

Is it the BWP? If not, then my boy has the 'fat genes' for both of them

No, actually, she is quite a poor doer.

 

[Amaranta]

Rather than trying to look clever by attacking the other person. Try sticking to the subject at hand and maybe you won't come across as point scoring. Debating is discussing the matter at hand, not the person you are arguing with.

For the record, I have never once had a horse with laminitis in all my years of caring for horses. That is a fact. If you think that means I have a lack of knowledge then so be it. I know otherwise.

Well dear (yes that WAS patronising) I thought I was sticking to the subject in hand but I can see now that you feel you already know everything there is to know and you are the only one in the whole world who knows how to look after horses of all shapes and sizes, perhaps we should all bow down to your obviously superior knowledge.

Can't stop, I am waiting for the vet to come and do a 5* vetting on my horse, we are off competing this weekend.

Now that was point scoring

 

[Wagtail]

Nope I do mean lbs. Which exactly illustrates my point, that horses are overfed by vast quantities. 'Save your purse, save your pony' should be the BHS's welfare strapline!

I have to say that this completely surprises me. My TBs would be walking skeletons on that amount of food. They would also have ulcers as that would not be enough to keep their digestive juices going. Studies have shown that ulcers can form if horses are left without forage for more than 3 hours at a time. Even feeding 16 kg of haylage a day I struggle to ensure that this does not happen.

But then studies have also shown that around 80 - 90% of race horses have ulcers.

 

[Wagtail]

Well dear (yes that WAS patronising) I thought I was sticking to the subject in hand but I can see now that you feel you already know everything there is to know and you are the only one in the whole world who knows how to look after horses of all shapes and sizes, perhaps we should all bow down to your obviously superior knowledge.

Can't stop, I am waiting for the vet to come and do a 5* vetting on my horse, we are off competing this weekend.

Now that was point scoring

LMAO I'm sending you a friends request.

 

[Baggybreeches]

I have to say that this completely surprises me. My TBs would be walking skeletons on that amount of food.

In which case I might suggest that feeding is not the be all and end all of a horses well being?

My horse doesn't have ulcers, in fact I would say apart from his box walking (which I manage by keeping him out as much as possible and using a horse walker in winter) there is very little damage been done by him being a racehorse.
I will quite happily walk to the field now and get you a snapshot of how he looks this very day on such meagre rations.
BTW if it makes any difference I also have an IDx and a Welsh Sec A and neither of those get any bucket feed at all, I don't understand why people would rather feed chop/fibre nuts when hay or haylage is just as good/the same thing?