Horses losing condition in the winter

[tallyho!]

I thought horses/ponies were meant to lose some weight over winter... well this is what is widely accepted where I come from.

I find it's imperative mine loses weight as he is laminitic and the "buffer zone" it creates is very important.

 

[touchstone]

I have to say that this completely surprises me. My TBs would be walking skeletons on that amount of food. They would also have ulcers as that would not be enough to keep their digestive juices going. Studies have shown that ulcers can form if horses are left without forage for more than 3 hours at a time. Even feeding 16 kg of haylage a day I struggle to ensure that this does not happen.

But then studies have also shown that around 80 - 90% of race horses have ulcers.

I think though that you've got to bear in mind that you have to follow the rules of feeding - feed according to condition, work being done etc and if the horse maintains health and condition on a small amount then he should be fine.

There is also new research that says iit is safe to feed as little as one percent of bodyweight to horses in order to initiate weight loss if overweight. http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wlrhd.htm

An average horse maintains/gains weight when fed at 2 - 21/2% bodyweight which would equate to only 10kg -12kg total feed for a 500kg horse. I know the majority of horses I've cared for would be overweight on 16kg haylage daily.

 

[Hippona]

In which case I might suggest that feeding is not the be all and end all of a horses well being?

Absolutely.....my last horse- when on a livery yard....could NOT keep the weight on him. Spent a fortune on build-up cubes/blue chip/alfa a oil- you name it- I've fed it.

Moved him to my own place.....no stress, settled herd of 3 ( all mine) he positively bloomed.....

All 3 now get hay at night- poor-ish grazing through the day and a handfull (literally - a handfull- scoop not required) of chaff with Pink Powder for tea. And to my mind they are overweight on that.

I will purposefully use winter to drop some weight off them.

 

[Dolcé]

I thought horses/ponies were meant to lose some weight over winter... well this is what is widely accepted where I come from.

I find it's imperative mine loses weight as he is laminitic and the "buffer zone" it creates is very important.

I have learned from a rather nasty experience that this is a huge part of managing laminitis, and it means I don't have to keep them in a starvation paddock all summer too, they can stay out with the rest of the herd.

 

[Baggybreeches]

I think though that you've got to bear in mind that you have to follow the rules of feeding - feed according to condition, work being done etc and if the horse maintains health and condition on a small amount then he should be fine.

There is also new research that says iit is safe to feed as little as one percent of bodyweight to horses in order to initiate weight loss if overweight. http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wlrhd.htm

An average horse maintains/gains weight when fed at 2 - 21/2% bodyweight which would equate to only 10kg -12kg total feed for a 500kg horse. I know the majority of horses I've cared for would be overweight on 16kg haylage daily.

But touchstone if it says it on the back of the bag it must be right?

FWIW I feed my dogs in a similar fashion which equates to roughly half what the feed comapny tell you, the only exception is my old dog who gets as much as I can feed him because he has a blood condition.
I know that if I fed my horse what the feed company recommended that a) I couldn't afford my mortgage as all my money would go on feed and b/c) he would be overweight and completely unrideable!

 

[tallyho!]

I have learned from a rather nasty experience that this is a huge part of managing laminitis, and it means I don't have to keep them in a starvation paddock all summer too, they can stay out with the rest of the herd.

Yes! Absolutely, mine gets to live out with his chums and probably wouldn't be able to if he was fat coming out of winter. We still keep a muzzle handy during spring though...

 

[Wagtail]

In which case I might suggest that feeding is not the be all and end all of a horses well being?

My horse doesn't have ulcers, in fact I would say apart from his box walking (which I manage by keeping him out as much as possible and using a horse walker in winter) there is very little damage been done by him being a racehorse.
I will quite happily walk to the field now and get you a snapshot of how he looks this very day on such meagre rations.
BTW if it makes any difference I also have an IDx and a Welsh Sec A and neither of those get any bucket feed at all, I don't understand why people would rather feed chop/fibre nuts when hay or haylage is just as good/the same thing?

I would love it if I could cut my feed bills in half BB. I actually agree regarding the haylage being better for keeping condition than hard feed. I always recommend it on threads as opposed to hard feed. However, my liveries expect hard feed as well as haylage. I also think that horses need some sort of additional feed just to get their full range of vitamins and minerals. But only a very small amount is necessary.

Regarding the ulcers though, there is no way without scoping to say your horse does not have them. I could not guarantee ANY horse did not have them, especially as the majority of competition horses do. All I can do is try to minimise the risk and the biggest risk is standing without forage for any length of time.

 

[siennamum]

I get this with most horses which come to my yard. Owner comes with bags of food and a horse which has to be in a lot.

After a couple of months of old mixed grazing, in a happy herd and out 24/7 they are struggling to keep the weight off them and they are completely chilled.

My ISH (hunter in old English) was 3rd in a 2DE last year on grass/hay alone. I can't even give my lot haylage as they get too fat.

It's easy to say all this of course when you have plenty of grazing, but i really think keeping them naturally like this - hand in hand with letting them get leaner over Winter (instead of filling them with sugar/starch) and bloom & grow in the Summer - leads to happy/healthy horses.

If I had a horse which needed hard food - I hasten to add - it would get it.

 

[aimsymc]

my last horse a 16h tb, was a quite good doer. in summer she looked amazing on good grazing only and in winter she had 1 net of haylege in morn and 1 net at night she never finished it all. she also had 1 scoop of mix morn and night. i found the thing that kept her looking the best was work.

 

[Wagtail]

Baggybreeches, do you have your horses on grass in the winter? Or are they only on haylage?

 

[aimsymc]

sorry sent before i was finished! My new horse is a ish/wb and appears to be a very good doer (only had her a month). she doesnt get any extra hay at the mo and no hard feed shes still a wee bit chubbier than id like. come winter i will only feed enough to maintain her weight as i hate overweight horses. Id say pretty much all the other horses on my yard are grossly overweight!

 

[Lady La La]

Deleted. cant be bothered..

 

[Baggybreeches]

Baggybreeches, do you have your horses on grass in the winter? Or are they only on haylage?

No only haylage in the winter, when the field gets too wet they get turned out in my sand arena, with a pile of haylage (small pile so it doesn't get spread about and the ID hoover can clean up easily). Have done this for 5 of the last 6 winters as I only got the field at the back last year.

 

[ThePinkPony]

Well what about this. Her owner mentioned she thinks shes chubby. i would personally like her covered a bit better and will start working on the topline once shes been here another week. she was on no grass, hay and lots of hard feed. Now shes in a paddock with okay grazing and ive been giving her a scoop each of fibre cubes and coolmix and mchaff in the evening.

You cant see very well, but her ribs are visible and her hips protrude quite a bit.

 

[Wagtail]

No only haylage in the winter, when the field gets too wet they get turned out in my sand arena, with a pile of haylage (small pile so it doesn't get spread about and the ID hoover can clean up easily). Have done this for 5 of the last 6 winters as I only got the field at the back last year.

Same here, I use an all weather turnout during the winter.

Okay, then I am really puzzled. You feed 18 lbs (8 kg) of haylage a day to a 17.1 hh that has no other forage and is in medium/hard work? That is only one large net a day. Yet he looks stunning and has loads of energy?

I feed almost double to my 16.1 hh TB that is in light work (schooled/hacked 5 times a week) and he is not in the slightest overweight and lovely and calm but still plenty of energy when needed. Same is true of my two WB mares.

Something doesn't add up.

 

[Wagtail]

Well what about this. Her owner mentioned she thinks shes chubby. i would personally like her covered a bit better and will start working on the topline once shes been here another week. she was on no grass, hay and lots of hard feed. Now shes in a paddock with okay grazing and ive been giving her a scoop each of fibre cubes and coolmix and mchaff in the evening.

You cant see very well, but her ribs are visible and her hips protrude quite a bit.

I agree with you. She is too thin. Lovely potential though once she muscles up. Can't imagine why anyone would say she was chubby!

 

[Maesfen]

Interestingly, a good friend of mine, used to be a trainer's wife (flat) that had a lot of success was talking about this at a feed evening recently. They did several trials on all different ages of racehorses in training with them and without exception, as they got fitter and nearer to race so their appetite for both forage and feed would go down rapidly and they wouldn't eat any more than they wanted. They weren't stressed at all and the majority of them always scoped clear for ulcers too. The same used to happen with some hunters I had here too; as much as I wanted them to have more they just wouldn't eat it even though it was there in front of them. Some can obviously self regulate!

 

[ThePinkPony]

It doesnt help that she is in with my fat pony.

What would you suggest, she is only 4 and not backed yet. i was going to put her on haylage and d+h build up.

She will look fab once i get her working properly, its just having the space to do it as complications have arisen .

 

[Wagtail]

It doesnt help that she is in with my fat pony.

What would you suggest, she is only 4 and not backed yet. i was going to put her on haylage and d+h build up.

She will look fab once i get her working properly, its just having the space to do it as complications have arisen .

Even though she is thin, I would not go OTT with the feeding, especially if she's not used to it. I would gradually inroduce haylage and apart from a half scoop of good quality cubes a day, she should not need any more until her work gets harder. The more muscle she builds, the more calories she will burn. I think she will be stunning.

 

[cptrayes]

I deliberately bring my horses into spring leaner. Then when they put on weight with the spring grass I do not have to restrict their grazing too much.

I also do it because I have found that if I feed them in March to keep their weight on, they can suddenly balloon in weight in a couple of days if I misstime the hard feed with the grass starting and that would be very unsafe.

Lastly, horses on grass carry a lot of water and look fatter than horses on winter diets.

 

[Wagtail]

Interestingly, a good friend of mine, used to be a trainer's wife (flat) that had a lot of success was talking about this at a feed evening recently. They did several trials on all different ages of racehorses in training with them and without exception, as they got fitter and nearer to race so their appetite for both forage and feed would go down rapidly and they wouldn't eat any more than they wanted. They weren't stressed at all and the majority of them always scoped clear for ulcers too. The same used to happen with some hunters I had here too; as much as I wanted them to have more they just wouldn't eat it even though it was there in front of them. Some can obviously self regulate!

Personally I have never had a TB that refused any amount of haylage. However, I agree that that this is probably not the norm. It is probably that I get all the slow ones that eat too much.

 

[Megibo]

my native mare often gets overweight in the summer unless worked 6 days a week. she came into summer this year not too fat, just right but her paddock was moved and then she 'exploded'. she's currently on a diet on a starvation paddock with nibble-length grass and soaked hay. recreating her natural conditions as advised and it is working.
i much prefer her to be a little bit lean in the winter as it means she doesn't get awfully fat in the spring and summer months. not underweight, just lean. and she's a healthy happy chap-well as happy as you can be in winter...

due to her being overweight this year she'll be going into the winter months with no hard feed and no rug until she looks slim again. then she'll get as much feed as she needs to keep her there and a lightweight rug.

 

[ThePinkPony]

Even though she is thin, I would not go OTT with the feeding, especially if she's not used to it. I would gradually inroduce haylage and apart from a half scoop of good quality cubes a day, she should not need any more until her work gets harder. The more muscle she builds, the more calories she will burn. I think she will be stunning.

she is used to alot more than i give her actually. ive taken her down from 2 sc chaff, 1 sc mix, 1 SB, 1.1/2 sc fibre cubes and ad lib haylage from her previous owner who had no grazing (btw that pic was 1st day we got her) because shes now on grazing. im taking my time with food because you can really tell shes got grass now little madam and its not been a week and a half yet.

and thanks, she is very pretty and cant wait to get her going.

 

[Wagtail]

The problem with weight fluctuating so much between summer and winter is because losing weight over winter actually slows the metabolism down. Then the weight just piles on in the summer when they go onto the grass. The problem therefore only gets worse. People doubting this only have to read the studies on people who crash diet. Slimming lowers your metabolism. You need less food then to maintain your weight. It is self defeating. If a person wants to maintain a healthy weight then losing weight for half the year and then quickly gaining it is not the way to do it. The same is true for any animal. When food reduces and the body loses weight, the metabolism slows. So I would argue that weight loss during the winter will actually make a horse gain weight FASTER in the spring.

 

[Wagtail]

she is used to alot more than i give her actually. ive taken her down from 2 sc chaff, 1 sc mix, 1 SB, 1.1/2 sc fibre cubes and ad lib haylage from her previous owner who had no grazing (btw that pic was 1st day we got her) because shes now on grazing. im taking my time with food because you can really tell shes got grass now little madam and its not been a week and a half yet.

and thanks, she is very pretty and cant wait to get her going.

Be sure to post photos!

 

[Baggybreeches]

Same here, I use an all weather turnout during the winter.

Okay, then I am really puzzled. You feed 18 lbs (8 kg) of haylage a day to a 17.1 hh that has no other forage and is in medium/hard work? That is only one large net a day. Yet he looks stunning and has loads of energy?

No at the moment he is in light/medium work (for him) as he doesn't really do 'let down' so his hard feed is reduced to 3lbs (a little more than 1/2 a round scoop twice a day) and his haylage is up to 18lbs, he is out for 12hrs a day but my field has very little grass because the ground is baked clay and we haven't anywhere to put them. They are all including him in perfect condition (although the other two could be described as tubby).

 

[Baggybreeches]

she is used to alot more than i give her actually. ive taken her down from 2 sc chaff, 1 sc mix, 1 SB, 1.1/2 sc fibre cubes and ad lib haylage from her previous owner who had no grazing

I am glad you have reduced her feed because grazing or no grazing that sound far too much for a youngster, and I would guess that there is little point in feeding so many fibre sources unless there is some kind of problem?

 

[Wagtail]

No at the moment he is in light/medium work (for him) as he doesn't really do 'let down' so his hard feed is reduced to 3lbs (a little more than 1/2 a round scoop twice a day) and his haylage is up to 18lbs, he is out for 12hrs a day but my field has very little grass because the ground is baked clay and we haven't anywhere to put them. They are all including him in perfect condition (although the other two could be described as tubby).

I don't think we are comparing like for like then. Mine are out on very poor grazing (clay soil and parched) and only on 6kg haylage a day at present so less than yours. They are just nicely maintaining their condition. The grass is very sparse but as they are out 24/7 at the moment they are obviously getting SOME nourishment from it or they would lose weight. They have one hard feed a day. My TB has a scoop of Alfa A Half a scoop of fast fibre and half a scoop of high fibre cubes.

 

[Cuffey]

A racehorse ''fit to run'' is likely to weigh in at below 1000lbs so Baggybreeches will be feeding 2% of bodyweight of good quality food.

A ''leisure'' or ''show'' TB likely to weigh 1200lbs or more
Cuffey is 16hh TB/ID and was weighed once when competing at Moreton Morrell--484kg and pronounced very fit for the job--many were too fat for XC in hot weather.

There is a huge variation in quality of haylage/hay depending on many things, so anyone needing to feed larger quantities than 2-2.5% to maintain bodyweight is possibly buying a higher fibre but lower digestible energy product.

Last winter was the worst I have been through in over 30years in Scotland with temperatures well below -10C for weeks, horses frogs were freezing literally and my elderly Cushings pony did lose weight, despite rug and adlib hay and twice daily bucket feed. He has put the weight back.

 

[ThePinkPony]

her previous owner had lots of feeds and supplements for all her horses, i just dont think she needs it. I want her weight up to start with lunging so she has something to turn into muscle, but she can live without a million different mixes until then. Ive only bought the single sacks of mix and cubes so its not to much of a shock, her coming to her new home and her new mum basically STARVING her!!! she is very food orientated obviously Hopefully by then the grazing will be showing. Its good to know that people think im doing the right thing.