Horses losing condition in the winter

Horses losing condition during the winter is usually down to poor management

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Wagtail said:
Same here, I use an all weather turnout during the winter.

Okay, then I am really puzzled. You feed 18 lbs (8 kg) of haylage a day to a 17.1 hh that has no other forage and is in medium/hard work? That is only one large net a day. Yet he looks stunning and has loads of energy?

I feed almost double to my 16.1 hh TB that is in light work (schooled/hacked 5 times a week) and he is not in the slightest overweight and lovely and calm but still plenty of energy when needed. Same is true of my two WB mares.

Something doesn't add up.
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Whatever happened to managing each horse as an individual then, how can anyone, without personal knowledge of a horse, say what is right and what is wrong for that particular horse?

I have absolutely no idea how much forage my horses get...no grass for 5 months that's for sure, we don't even see the ground for that long, they have round bales and just eat what they like, when they like. I'll be blowed if I am filling, weighing and hanging nets around paddocks for over 20 horses every day :( If something looks as if it needs more then it gets grained accordingly and another blanket bunged on.
 
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I have always been under the impression that a horse should lose condition over the winter? Feel free to correct me, I haven't read all the posts though I'm afraid :)

J&C
 
Enfys said:
Whatever happened to managing each horse as an individual then, how can anyone, without personal knowledge of a horse, say what is right and what is wrong for that particular horse?
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It turns out we have been talking at crossed purposes and actually BB is feeding more to her horse than I am to mine at present. That is why I queried it.
 
JessandCharlie said:
I have always been under the impression that a horse should lose condition over the winter? Feel free to correct me, I haven't read all the posts though I'm afraid :)

J&C
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I think that opinion is outdated and old fashioned (and also an excuse for SOME to skimp on feeding costs), but others will agree with it. I actually voted for the third option on the poll, in that I think that loss of condition is USUALLY down to poor management, but that there are exceptions.
 
It's difficult, but if a horse was feral, they would not doubt lose condition over the winter and put it back on over the summer, would it not? So is this not a natural way for it to kept? Just for the record, mine don't tend to lose much weight through the winter, they just go a bit squishy and lose muscle tone (can't ride much over winter with the light :() But, I won't worry too much if they do start to lose condition within reason :)

J&C
 
Generally i'd say poor management, but it can be difficult to work out the right management for a particular horse therefore un-intentionally the horse looses weight.

But there's no excuse for a horse getting REALLY under weight, i havea 27yo tbx that's a very poor doer with hardly any teeth that can't eat hay and i manage to keep a decent covering on him!
 
Yes, but it's part of her always twisting what she has already said in order to try to fool people that she knows what she's talking about.
 
For those of you who can wade through it

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1939-1676.2010.0503.x/pdf

''In this context, it has been suggested that horses and ponies
evolutionarily adapted to survival in nutritionally
sparse environments are especially predisposed to obesity
and IR under modern management conditions in which
plentiful feed is available year round. For example, feral
and native pony breeds retain strong seasonality with respect
to appetite and body condition. Under ‘‘feral’’
conditions these ponies gain weight during the summer
months when food is abundant before losing it again during
the winter.a Seasonal changes in insulin sensitivity also
may occur, reflecting alterations in food availability, physical
activity, and body condition. Season affected resting''
serum insulin concentrations in 1 study of obese mares,
with higher concentrations detected in December, compared
with September, October, and November.11 In the
context of domesticated equids experiencing a chronic
state of overnutrition, these seasonal changes in body condition
and insulin sensitivity may be replaced by
progressive obesity and IR with associated adverse health
consequences. ''
I know it is based on native ponies but as a alot of are horses are 'good doers and bred from native x's and draught cold blood types, so for some horses the pre spring diet is a good idea.
 
Let me get this straight.

As Dorey drops condition over winter, I need to give her more hay (even though she doesn't eat everything she has...) - or better still, give her haylage (and therefore the runs!), then up her hard feed from a handful to a bucketfull and presumably put a grill over her stable door to stop her climbing out as she "wall of death"s round her stable with no where else to go...

... and if all else fails, I should pop another rug on so that by "warm" she's actually "dripping with sweat".

You know what, I'm gonna stuff Wagtails excellent advice on this one and stick to my horse dropping a couple of kilos in condition - for her own sake, as well as the safety of my fellow liveries!

What utter tosh!
 
For me, weight gain/loss in a horse depending on the season is a perfectly natural occurance. At the moment my mare is looking a bit a too good grazing a virtually bare paddock. Come the colder weather when the grass packs up, she'll lose some and look leaner ready to pick up again in the spring. I will not stuff her full of hard feed in a fruitless attempt to maintain her summer weight, it would not suit her disposition;)
 
Haven't read all the replies so sorry if I'm repeating.

I think the OP is perhaps generalising somewhat.

This winter I had nowhere to exercise my horses for 5 weeks - literally nowhere at all due to being in minus 17. Now, my one horse didn't lose any weight and in fact probably put on a bit, but lost fitness and muscle and so looked very flabby. My TB on the other hand, looked dreadful, again because she lost muscle and is very lean. I can assue the OP that every care and consideration was taken regarding her welfare, very well fed, ad lib quality hay and heavily rugged - but just like humans some simply don't do as well in the conditions as others and this is not always down to ignorance. They both look marvellous at the moment, and providing we can work all through the winter they will continue to do so. But if we have a repeat performance weather wise .....
 
ThePinkPony said:
Well what about this. Her owner mentioned she thinks shes chubby. i would personally like her covered a bit better and will start working on the topline once shes been here another week. she was on no grass, hay and lots of hard feed. Now shes in a paddock with okay grazing and ive been giving her a scoop each of fibre cubes and coolmix and mchaff in the evening.

You cant see very well, but her ribs are visible and her hips protrude quite a bit.
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Nice... and indeed.. pink! You won't get topline on feed though... work work work...
 
Wagtail said:
Regarding the ulcers though, there is no way without scoping to say your horse does not have them. I could not guarantee ANY horse did not have them, especially as the majority of competition horses do. All I can do is try to minimise the risk and the biggest risk is standing without forage for any length of time.
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Although horses are meant to trickle feed, they don't need huge amounts to keep the gut healthy, just small amounts little and often. Competition horses are usually fed quite large amounts of concentrates and very little forage which can be a problem, although I think this is changing nowadays. The stresses involved competing and travelling will be bound to have an effect too I'd have thought. The average horse will usually have no problems if the recommended fibre amounts are fed and restricted by small hole nets etc if it eats it too quickly.
 
Wagtail said:
The problem with weight fluctuating so much between summer and winter is because losing weight over winter actually slows the metabolism down. Then the weight just piles on in the summer when they go onto the grass. The problem therefore only gets worse. People doubting this only have to read the studies on people who crash diet. Slimming lowers your metabolism. You need less food then to maintain your weight. It is self defeating. If a person wants to maintain a healthy weight then losing weight for half the year and then quickly gaining it is not the way to do it. The same is true for any animal. When food reduces and the body loses weight, the metabolism slows. So I would argue that weight loss during the winter will actually make a horse gain weight FASTER in the spring.
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It's this kind of statement which does my head in.

You have absolutely no real scientific basis for your opinions, just half baked Bull ***t!! A bit like your "supplements damage horses digestive systems", theory. You have made this stuff up, but are determinedly positing yourself as an expert on every subject.
 
Hmm, but if the horse's metabolism is slowing down then surely he needs less food?

It actually speeds up in winter anyway:-

"Weight Building After Winter
Story by Eleanor Kellon, VMD

If you found a skinny horse under that winter hair coat this spring, here's why and what to do about it.


As the forsythia blooms and your horse begins to shed his winter coat, you may find that there's not as much horse left underneath. Your horse's wintertime metabolic changes can burn more calories, causing winter weight loss, as seen here.

Horses have a remarkable ability to withstand winter weather. But wintertime can sometimes exact a price on horses in terms of calories. If you found there wasn't as much horse left underneath that thick winter coat when your horse shed out this spring, you're not alone.

Winter Metabolism
Your horse's body uses several different strategies to keep warm in the winter. His hair coat of course is a big part of it, but some breeds are better at growing the dense, insulating coats than others. Good coat or not, when it gets very cold, or your horse gets wet, he needs other ways to generate heat.

To avoid heat losses through the skin, blood flow to the legs decreases. Heat generated by the organisms fermenting fibrous foods in the horse's large intestine helps warm from the inside out. But that's not all. The horse's metabolism also changes.

Levels of active thyroid hormone normally increase in the winter. This is a metabolic strategy found in many species. This makes your horse burn his feed more quickly-"fast metabolism"-and also makes the burning of feeds less efficient in producing energy for the cells. When energy production is less efficient, more of your horse's calories are lost as heat, which helps keep your horse warm. As essential as this extra warmth is, it also means fewer calories are available to maintain weight.

If you understand your horse's winter metabolism, then it'll make sense when you find your horse is a little lighter in the spring. As the weather warms up, his metabolism will return to normal. In many cases, you don't really have to "do" anything for your horse to gain back the weight he lost over the winter. If the diet you were feeding him all winter had kept him at a good weight the prior summer and fall, he'll return to that quickly with no change in feeding."
 
A HORSES metabolism is NOTHING like a HUMANS!!

Wagtail, what ARE you going on about woman???
 
A little condition/weight loss is not a bad thing. For breading reasons horses get in foal better when putting on weight so are better comeing out of winter abit leaner.

Plus every horse is different!

I know a tb stallion that you can give him 5 or 6 scopes of stallion feed (split between 4 meals) a day plus haylege in the day and out at night and he will eat it. Other times you put more than a scoop in at a time and it will overface him. He just grazes on his feed he is confident that it will be there when he goes back to it, so he choses what is eats,when he eats and how much.
Others will just eat whatever you put infront of them however much it is. Which proves you got to treat them differently and one rule doesnt work for everyone.

In moderation abit of loss is not a bad thing.
 
native ponies have evolved to put weight on in the summer on good grass and lose some over the winter.
By keeping a pony in constant condition especially natives makes them more susceptible to EMS.
This especially applies to natives living out.
My ponies lose weight over winter, they need to, and they are happy healthy & well.

I am sure the same applies to horses :)

obviously there is a difference between losing a summer belly and becoming emaciated
 
Odd, isn't it; when I bought my older chap a year ago, his old owner said he wasn't the easiest to keep weight on, and got a scoop of A&P Calm and Condition, a scoop of Alfa-A and oil, plus comp mix depending on how pingy I wanted him, twice a day. Plus turnout or hay if he was in.

He is currently having no hard feed, and turned out 24/7 on ok, but by no means good grazing (albeit a bit better after the rain) He is worked 5/6 days a week for around an hour at a time, either schooling quite hard, or hacking with a lot of trotting and cantering, all on hills (not flat around here :p)

To me, he is still a bit too round, he's not overweight per se, but on the upper end of healthy.

I also have a 4yo TB living on the same grazing, with a stubbs scoop of high fibre nuts and Equine America More Muscle a day. He's worked every other day, sometimes more, for 40mins-1hr schooling or hacking and looks super imo.

Then again, I would be pretty happy with the horse PinkPony showed, I like she's lovely! Needs more muscle, but I wouldn't personally put more fat on her. But that's me, and tbh, so long as the horse isn't in any danger, each to their own :)

J&C
 
Pinkpony- i would rather see a four yr old looking like that, then have a lot of weight stacked on, she will look great when in work and muscled up!
For the record, my ponies loose weight in winter, they are on rough grazing ALL year round , they onley get fed hay, if it snows. Because they are on such a large acerage and have such a diverse forage they actually live very well. If one was to drop weight over what i consider good, then i would move it in with the horses for hay.
My horses are on over nine acres (three of them) I like them to drop a bit of weight also through the winter, it would be a wast of time to start feeding them hay to early in the winter, as they wont eat it while the grass is still under them.
Just to add all out 24/7, except two who are lami prone , in summer they have axcess to the yard.
 
It is quite scary really, I really hope that nobody reads the rubbish that OP is spouting as if it is gospel and follows her advice. I would like to make clear though that our deliberate allowing of ours to drop weight is nothing to do with 'skimping' on feed costs over winter, and I found that comment quite offensive. You can carry on feeding your horses as much as you want and I, along with many others I am sure, will completely ignore the very wrong advice that you are giving and continue to do the right thing by ours!
 
bakedbean said:
some kind of record i feel...its taken 11 pages this time for the OP to start backtracking/twisting to confuse the issue, just incase someone cottons on to the fact that actually, she has no idea whatsoever what she is talking about..usually she changes tack long before now..:rolleyes:
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Well, TBF, I only got back from work (and therefore reading) when the thread had got to 11 pages...
 
hch4971 said:
It is quite scary really, I really hope that nobody reads the rubbish that OP is spouting as if it is gospel and follows her advice. I would like to make clear though that our deliberate allowing of ours to drop weight is nothing to do with 'skimping' on feed costs over winter, and I found that comment quite offensive. You can carry on feeding your horses as much as you want and I, along with many others I am sure, will completely ignore the very wrong advice that you are giving and continue to do the right thing by ours!
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I quite agree, it is indeed scary.
We will continue to allow ours to drop weight over the winter (in fact we were concerned this Spring, after the first winter having to fed haylage that they were too fat going into spring).
Those of us who know what we are doing and understand how horses digestive systems/metabolism work will indeed ignore the incorrect advice.
I do like the Pink Pony (we used to have 2 pink horses - the Pink Pair) but I certainly wouldn't be feeding it up. That photo doesn't show its ribs. Admittedly it needs muscle but contrary to popular belief you cannot turn fat into muscle.
 
Wagtail said:
Of course wild horses lose weight in the winter. That is because the grass loses its nutrients and there is not so much food around generally. However, we are keeping domestic horses that we expect to work for us and we can provide them with the forage needed so they do not drop weight. Just because animals drop weight in the wild, or even starve, does not mean that is how we should manage them.

Do you also cut down your dogs food in the winter? As if he was in the wild he would drop lots of weight as food would be scarce.
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Not starve, but since natives have a metabolism which adjusts over the winter to cater (ha ha) for a shortage/reduction in food, I suggest it is neglect NOT factoring this into our management.

And yes, I remember you accusing my mare's previous owner of neglect on this very issue. And I still disagree.
 
my ISH looses weight in the winter he is usually rugged in a heavy weight with a neck and a medium and no he is not hot... he is fed 30lbs of haylage at night and adlib in the field he is stabled at night and is fed a large hard feed with spedibeet, chaff, build up and conditioning mix, he has come though the winter ribby he is in full work and i always get him fatter at the end of summer so i have a chance to keep his weight on.. if im doing something wrong please tell me as he costs so much to keep at a good weight...
 
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