How Can I improve (Schooling) *Pics*

3Beasties

3Beasties

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Charlie is going like a giraffe, refusing to accept the bit and generally being a plonker. My position has gone to pot as has my balance (I have gone very wonky lately - even when not riding I walk wonkily (is that even a word!?)
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).

I can see what my faults are but struggle to put it right, so any help, tips or advise would be much appreciated. I am guessing (and hoping) that the horse will improve as I do.

I also don't know weather I should try him in a different bit. At the moment I school him in a hanging cheek snaffle with a lozenge link but like I said earlier I really struggle to get him to accept it.

Anyway here are the pics (it has taken me all day to build up the courage to post these
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)

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Charlie is 14 yo, 16.2hh, TB ex-racer. Has had all the usual checks done.
 
Okay, so the boring questions - teeth, back, saddle?

Have you tried a Pelham? On two reins.

When did the issues start? Only when schooling, or when out hacking as well? Worse on one rein or same on both? What like when lunged?
 
Those pictures could be me and my boy!!!

All I can advise is Lessons, lessons, lessons! They have really helped me and my boy to the point that last week we actually acheived a contact and an outline! I find it hard to replicate when schooling on my own though. Got a lesson tonight and can't wait!!

Good luck!
 
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Okay, so the boring questions - teeth, back, saddle?

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All checked recently - I have gone back to his old synthetic saddle though as I wasn't happy with his leather one even though my saddler checked it about 5 times!

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Have you tried a Pelham? On two reins.

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Not for a few years but I have been thinking of trying him in it again. I only tried him in it for hacking so would be interesting to see how he went if I tried to school him.

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When did the issues start? Only when schooling, or when out hacking as well? Worse on one rein or same on both? What like when lunged?

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He has always been giraffe like but we had a break through last year and I started getting him to go quite nicely. He wasn't worked much over winter though and since being back in work has gone back to his old ways, if not slightly worst. Not sure if this is him or me though, I have never felt so unbalanced before and I think because I have lost confidence in my ability to school him we are not getting very far!

Out hacking he has been silly lately but I have put this down to the spring grass, he still goes around with his head in the air but sometimes if we have been on a long ride he will start to accept the bit (that's the one of the problems really - he takes a good 45minutes to warm up, by which time I am knackered and he is dripping in sweat
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).

He has always been better on the right rein.

On the lunge he is awful, I have lunged him for nearly an hour before in side reins and couldn't get his head down at all
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! I have to be careful lunging with any type of gadget as he panics and will rear, run backwards, fall over, I am not really prepared to risk him doing this.
Edited as I forgot to answer the rest of you questions.
 
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Is this how he has always gone or is it a new thing?

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Please see my reply to MrsM
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Firstly....don't beat yourself up...your position looks good and you dont appear wonkified at all.
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Secondly....when my horse started hollowing, it turned out his saddle wasn't right. Got a new one- job done.

If its not that, I find the best way to get a contact/outline is to ride with your legs/seat- really encourage a forward trot and gently play with the reins, bit of feel on alternate reins....obviously dont just try and pull his head in cos that wont work, you end up with an overbent horse.

You dont seem to have an effective contact though, reins appear a little long...'spaghetti reins' my daughter calls em!

Bit choice seems fine...bit of poll pressure to bring the head down...

Personally I would get saddle/teeth checked and get an instructor out to give you a few tips and some excercises to work on.
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I can’t view the picture (stupid machine at work) but some horse don’t like the poll pressure caused by the hanging check. I personally would go the other way to MrsMozart and go for a French link loose ring snaffle i personally don’t like putting strong bits in unless absolutely necessary.

Have you thought about having lessons just a few to point you in the right direction so that they can tell you if it the bit or something else.
 
If you are feeling wonky have you had your back checked? We spend all this money on making sure our horses are Ok, how about you?!. If your pelvis is tilted slightly can really affect your balance when riding (i have this problem).
 
As commeted I would say your reins are too long you need to think of the back end as the engine and use your seat to propel the engine into your soft contact it hands. It's hard as too much contact and it's like riding with the handbrake on as you don't want to block the horse. Lots of flexing exercises I finds help with this issue. But the best advise would be get some lessons where someone on the ground is there to help and correct anything.

Good luck
 
BFG - the Pelham is only strong if you need it to be strong, ride it on the top rein and it's a mild as they come. Try a linked Pelham if need more tongue room or horse just prefers the link.

A lot of horses with high head carriage go well in a Pelham when they don't in anything else.

Out of interest, why have you put my name in bold?
 
Just wondering, given that all else has been checked, do you think that it's because you're losing confidence in yourself to school him?

You're general position is good, but you've tensed up, so are tipping forward, and not sat nice and deep and relaxed. Is there anything you can do to relax in terms of riding a different horse, maybe having someone lunge whilst you ride, ride without stirrups (if he's safe to do so) so's you can get your seat down and secure?

Sorry! Lots of questions
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Firstly....don't beat yourself up...your position looks good and you dont appear wonkified at all.
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Lol, Trust me they were the better photo's of the lot!

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Secondly....when my horse started hollowing, it turned out his saddle wasn't right. Got a new one- job done.

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Saddle has been checked about 5 times in the year I have had it, I have suddenly realised that I don't find it comfortable and doesn't really suit me so I have gone back to using my old synthetic one (which also fits him fine) whilst I find a new one.

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If its not that, I find the best way to get a contact/outline is to ride with your legs/seat- really encourage a forward trot and gently play with the reins, bit of feel on alternate reins....obviously dont just try and pull his head in cos that wont work, you end up with an overbent horse.

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Thank you, that is really useful and will try and put it in to action next time I ride.

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You dont seem to have an effective contact though, reins appear a little long...'spaghetti reins' my daughter calls em!

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I must admit when I looked at the pictures I did notice that! I am thinking of getting some continental reins as another thing I am really bad at is not keeping an equal contact.
 
It's difficult to say much from a couple of photos but I would say you need to think less about the head carriage and more about his back end. He looks lazy behind - he probably feels like he's going a million miles an hour with what my instructor calls "sowing machine legs" but not actually travelling anywhere. Work on getting him to take a longer stride, use his back end and then he will start to drop his nose. He looks as though he needs to build up the right muscles in the right places - he won't be able to work correctly and consistently until he's done this. I would just do short and sweet sessions with lots of stretching. Also loads of transistions and keep things interesting, so he has to listen to you.
 
my himble opinon
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haha.

dont worry too much, if theres nothing physicly wrong with him, and he goes fine in everyother aspect in the bit, i wouldnt change it. im sure its nothing some serious schooling cant put right. from your pictures, your centre of balance is a bit far foward which will make the horse tip on him forhand. my advice would be to put your shoulders back, do as much sitting trot as poss, keep your hands up with elbows best and keep the outside contact firm, ride him from the inside leg to the out ride rein and push as hard as you can!!! you might look awfull for 20mins but if he comes round it will be worth it. generally you have to exaggerate (sp) your aids for a few sessions before it all 'comes' on aid.

good luck
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dont get too down about it. make sure you do it properly or more problems will occur in the future and keep us posted!!
 
I think you ride very nicely!! you are a lot better than me!!!

I am a mega crap rider and have the same problem with my ex polo mare. I think it takes a very long time to get consistent work from horses that have always been upside down. Just keep at it, lots of transitions working from behind and he will gradually drop down.

Some pics to make you feel better. My giraffe!!:
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Just wondering, given that all else has been checked, do you think that it's because you're losing confidence in yourself to school him?

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Could be as I am feeling pretty crap about my ability at the moment, feel free to give me a good kick up the back side!

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You're general position is good, but you've tensed up, so are tipping forward, and not sat nice and deep and relaxed. Is there anything you can do to relax in terms of riding a different horse, maybe having someone lunge whilst you ride, ride without stirrups (if he's safe to do so) so's you can get your seat down and secure?

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I am riding my friend little coblet tonight so will see if I feel more relaxed/balanced on him. I may also ask her if she is able to come up and either ride Charlie (she is a good rider but not sure if she will 'school' him as such) or just be there to nag at me. Not that keen on being lunged on him as I think he will charge round at 90MPH! May try riding without stirrups but he is extremely bouncy and will spook half way across the school for no reason what so ever, I think I may need to put my seat belt on
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Sorry! Lots of questions
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Don't worry questions are good as by answering them I am seeing different things in a different way, so ask away!
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Hi
If he is really OK in his back and he has always been tricky, then he has an engrained habit, which will be frightening for him to break. Young horses that are a little in the habit of gong head high, I put in a de gogue, ideally on the lunge first then with reins under saddle. (Note the de gogue can be ridden in and the chambon cannot). In a de gogue you can let him have his head high but very gradually increase a little pressure on his poll as well, to encourge him to lower his head. I know hes not young so habit is going to be harder to break, but it can be done.

This is a just a suggestion, you can get the same effect riding very consistently with no gadgets other than still hands and strong leg, harmonising with the horse the moment he seems to give a fraction downwards and lower his head and neck.

Remember most horse training is about pressure on equalling response equals pressure off:. parelli makes that point and its so very true even in Grand Prix dressage, eventing and show jumping.

Your horse needs to learn to rebalance himself without using his head and neck as a balancing pole. Any good classical trainer should be able to help. As is said earlier you can help him with no gadgets at all. teaching him to go to the hand from the leg in a "new " way is your goal. Good Luck. Hope this helps a bit.
 
As CC says, more work from behind should help to bring the power in line to help the head end.

Hm. Stirrup-free might be an issue, therefore, try putting your stirrups up a hole and riding for half an hour, then putting them back down again. The aim is to give you something different to feel, and to get you something to work on. Not explaining myself very well, brain not splendid
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Can you flex him to left and right when at halt? Philippe Karl recommends that if a horse is giraffing like that the muscles that run along the top of his neck are tense. If you bend his neck to the left it will stretch the muscles on the left hand side of his neck and if you bend him to the right it will stretch the muscles on the right hand side of his neck. Doing this on every schooling session won't result in immediate dropping down onto the bit but it will stretch the muscles out so that in time it'll enable him to drop onto the bit. If he's always gone like this it will take time to stretch the muscles out. Likewise, doing carrot stretches to either side and between his knees will help.

Another exercise when your warming up in walk is to circle 10m in each corner as this will engage the inside hind, relax the horse and bend him which will hopefully loosen him up. Do this without even worrying about his outline and before long you'll find he drops into a better frame. Obviously do this on both reins.

Once he's been a good boy and relaxed, even slightly reward by giving the rein - ie pushing the hand forward and then retaking the contact rather than dropping the reins. This shows him that he's got it right and will build up his confidence and will also start to teach him the pleasure of a long and low stretch.

Oooh and another trick is just before doing the side stretches at halt give him a mint so that he chews and sucks as this will loosen his jaw up - if he's got a tight jaw it'll lead to tightness throughout his whole body.

I love lozenge bits and have just bought the NS team up one and really love it. Also, I've just had my horses teeth done and that has made a dramatic improvement in his way fo going.

Good luck with it, and have confidence, you're doing a fine job but it can be tough when they've gone in a certain frame for most of their life and you need to train that out of them.
 
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Sorry no help... but how nice to eventually see ridden pics
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Charlie is gorgeous as ever... and my god your amazingly thin legs go on forever!

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Thanks, Ridden pictures of me are a rarity so treasure them whilst you can!!
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I would swap my long legs for short ones any day, any takers??
 
I agree entirely with Chesnutcob (i can't see the pics so this is going in 'blind' as it were!). Forget entirely about the front end for the moment. No horse can truly work through without lots of engament from behind. Make him work, use loads of transitions to get him using himself and sitting back on his hocks. Whilst doing this keep your hands still and constant and not nagging.

I also agree re the action of the hanging cheek, if you haven't previously I echo what was said about trying a loose ring snaffle if a lozenge.

Good luck with him x
 
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BFG - the Pelham is only strong if you need it to be strong, ride it on the top rein and it's a mild as they come. Try a linked Pelham if need more tongue room or horse just prefers the link.

A lot of horses with high head carriage go well in a Pelham when they don't in anything else.

Out of interest, why have you put my name in bold?

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Just because i had referenced you and therefore thought it was only polite to draw your attention to it so that you could respond as you have (and I have seen others do it).

I have always stayed away from Pelham’s just a personal opinion. But haven’t had a horse with a very high head carriage and therefore wouldn’t know if they were a good bit to solve that problem. I did say i couldn’t view the picture and was only commenting on the fact that she couldn’t get him to accept the bit.
 
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Can you flex him to left and right when at halt?

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No he won't but I could do it on the ground with carrots for a few weeks and then hopefully he might do it when I am on board.


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Another exercise when your warming up in walk is to circle 10m in each corner as this will engage the inside hind, relax the horse and bend him which will hopefully loosen him up. Do this without even worrying about his outline and before long you'll find he drops into a better frame. Obviously do this on both reins.

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I do 10m circles but I always tend to do it in trot (which Does seem to help with his outline), will go back to walk though as that should be easier for him
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Once he's been a good boy and relaxed, even slightly reward by giving the rein - ie pushing the hand forward and then retaking the contact rather than dropping the reins. This shows him that he's got it right and will build up his confidence and will also start to teach him the pleasure of a long and low stretch.

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When I halt him he sometimes comes down into a nice outline (impatience because I won't let him walk) and I am never sure what to do to let him know that it is what I want. I tend to either give with my hand or ask him to walk on (which is what he wants), if his head goes straight up again I make him halt until it comes back down, then ask him to walk again, etc, etc. Do you think this sound like the right thing to do? I could literally be sat there for hours but maybe I should make a point of doing it one day until he gets the message?
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What do you think?
 
I think by the look of things your horse has a naturally high head carriage anyway not just because he's an ex racer with the whole giraffe thing going on.

The key to getting an ex racer going well, is to do it from walk and not until are used to coming into a contact and working correctly can you expect it to fall into place in trot....it will just never happen.

Its important that you progress slowly and get the muscles used to working in a different way, once they are don't too too much other 5 minutes and so forth, so eventually every time you school, you can increase the time you expect them to work in better outline, they should be doing this with ease.

Start off walking around as per usual and get warmed up, few stretches and easy bends, then stand and ask your horse to bend his head round to your toe etc and make sure that they are responding to your little squeezes on the rein when asking for the bend without the whole of the horse turning...so your your doing a bit fine tuning on the mouth.

Then working on 20 meter circle in walk, keeping that outside contact and gently sponging the inside rein, don't shorten the reins as this will only cause them to fight back more, you have to do things gradually, your trying to encourage them otherwise they will fight back and hollow up on you, you can easily do this with longer reins than how you would normally ride once they are worked in etc.

Keeping that inside leg on the girth and pushing them out but supporting with the outside leg, you will need to tinker slightly depending on if they start to fall in or out or the circle, every so often very gentle half halts witht that outside rein, just basically to come on try it, as well as keep it nice and slow but with plenty of impulsion they will eventually drop onto a relaxed contact, lots of praise and a slight release will act as a reward, this says to them this is a better place to be, otherwise I will keep asking (sponging) so eventually the penny drops. Now the important thing is you don't over do this, you may only get 5 paces but that is good, then you might get a 5 more giraffe ones, but that is ok because too much and you will make them sore, so each time you school you ask for a bit longer. You want them to work lower so the back end can come underneath and a nice slow active rhythm will develop, which will then mean the horse can work through his back correctly and will in turn work into an outline.

Once you have the walk mastered, you will find the trot will come very easily indeed, just intervals of trot and pleny of transitions.

You really need to keep on top of it every day, yes a change of bit can help a horse accept a contact but really at this stage because the horse has been out of work like you say then the above work everyday will get the results quicker than just changing the bit if your horse already seems reasonably happy in it.
 
I used to have one just like that, another TB, i did try a pelham for a while, but to be honest as soon as i changed back (to do some pre-lim dressage) i was back to square one! if he's not pulling etc i would suggest keeping the hanging cheek (unless he's objecting to it) and lots and lots of lessons. when schooling lots of serpentines, circles and downward transitions to get him moving forward but keep him mind active. best of luck - its a tough hill to climb but feels great when you get there!
 
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I also agree re the action of the hanging cheek, if you haven't previously I echo what was said about trying a loose ring snaffle if a lozenge.

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I don't have a loose ring with a lozenge (at least I don't think I do - I have so many bits I forget what I have got!
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) but I do have a full cheek with lozenge, Its gold/copper I think. Do you think I should try this insead?

I did buy a loose ring snaffle at the same time I brought the hanging cheek but I can't for the life of me remember what mouth piece it has, will have a look when I next go to the yard and possibly try that.
 
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