How do I breed a racehorse. Advice for beginner needed.

angrovestud said:
Sally I think you are so right the breeding of coloured horses in the years I have seen it escalate since 2006 when we bought our stallion to now where if its coloured keep it entire its sick making and now very pleasing to see so many who jumped on the band wagon selling there so called precious coloured stallion, I have bred coloured horses on and off for 30 years but as a buisness we decided to go in a different direction to the world and his wife hence breeding colour and bone in to the TB our Investment has been huge in terms of time money and effort but its thrilling to breed a horse for racing I wish the OP much luck you do need luck and good contacts and you need to be able to trust the people who care for your horse thats so important
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Hi,

Can you explain to me how you breed coloured tb's? I thought they had to be of solid colour to be Wetherby's registered? Sorry I though I'd asked this already on this thread but I can't see it, sorry to hijack but I've never seen or heard of a coloured tb!
 
Dizzle said:
Hi,

Can you explain to me how you breed coloured tb's? I thought they had to be of solid colour to be Wetherby's registered? Sorry I though I'd asked this already on this thread but I can't see it, sorry to hijack but I've never seen or heard of a coloured tb!
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There is at least one coloured TB, and one white one, they have to have registered TB parents. Not sure how it came about, but there must be a few rare genes [recessive] which will produce a coloured foal if crossed to another. With advanced DNA testing, there will be more manipulation of colour
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/01/051.shtml
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2006/0603/017.shtml

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2007/06/040.shtml
 
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MrsD123 said:
There is at least one coloured TB, and one white one, they have to have registered TB parents. Not sure how it came about, but there must be a few rare genes [recessive] which will produce a coloured foal if crossed to another. With advanced DNA testing, there will be more manipulation of colour
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/01/051.shtml
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2006/0603/017.shtml

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2007/06/040.shtml
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Very very interesting, although I can't find either of the UK youngsters on racing post and the stud fee for the sire of the skewbald is £1000 and he doesn't appear to have ever raced.

Is it wrong that I would love a palamino tb?! :D
 
magic104 said:
I think the difference is the sheer volume the racing industry produces, even with that 35% cut. Sadly Sally its a fact there are more TB in-foal mares going for meat then there are sporthorse mares or natives. And lets be honest it is a bigger gamble & with the training involved you may end up with a TB who is not upto the job & has also picked up some stable vice. Again a higher number of TB's from racing background develope stable vices, ulcers then those bred for sport. I am not saying that sporthorses dont go onto develope the vices, but generally not until they are in work & being stabled for longer. And yes plenty of ex racers have gone onto make excellent riding, sports & show horses. Also I think some of us are concerned that if the experts struggle how on earth is this poster going to buck the trend?
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I dont know where you mean perphaps Ireland(if rumours are to be believed) but certainly not around here that is for sure.
Yes i have just ended up with an empty mare who i am trying to rehome (if not she will stay here) but she would never have gone for meat just pts.
They may be culling empty mares or rehoming them but certainly not in foal ones.
The results from Tattersalls since October have seen an increase in prices for all stock from foals upwards which is in response to better quality and less numbers being produced.
On the other hand i read lots of horror stories of Welshes and Dartmoors and more recently high profile sport horse studs stock going to sales where they have been purchased by the meat man for a £1 a head.
Unlike a lot of people who try and do it on a shoestring with no experience the OP has set herself a reasonable budget and is asking questions which suggests she wont be going blindly into it and will take plenty of proffesional advice.
I really cant see how you can compare her to studs that mass produce any type of horse for the industry.
As for vices i have several ex racehorse mares and stallions here and none have any vices despite being in training for several years.
I have 4 TB ex race horse stallions here at present and all at some point have had long spells of box rest including one that is coming to the end of 10 weeks now and none have vices.
In fact out of around 30 possibly more over the years one has cribbed and that is it.
Now sport horse mares that come onto the stud or are resident here thats a differant matter altogether we have crib biters ,box walkers and weavers.
All did it before they arrived ,some we have managed to stop to a point with a careful management routine.
Some are English bred ,some are German and most are by high profile competition stallions .
There is always 2 sides to every story.
Im departing this thread now and i wish the OP the best of luck with whatever choice she makes because at the end of the day it is a free country and she can do as she pleases.
She asked for some advice not a slating.
 
I dispise the idea of breeding coloured throughbreds who only serve as a marketing purpose and novelty value.

From the current coloured TB I've seen, it has absolute shocking conformation and I wouldn't of paid £50 for it.
 
Interesting about TB's with stable vices- i work on a TB stud and we have nearly 100 horses here , about 70 of them are currently in training have raced ,or were in training for a year- a few years . Hand on heart I can honestly say that not one of them have a stable vice?!
There are no in foal mares going to the meatman either - is that in Ireland?
 
seabsicuit2 said:
Interesting about TB's with stable vices- i work on a TB stud and we have nearly 100 horses here , about 70 of them are currently in training have raced ,or were in training for a year- a few years . Hand on heart I can honestly say that not one of them have a stable vice?!
There are no in foal mares going to the meatman either - is that in Ireland?
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No it is not just a problem in Ireland, it has increased over here. I am sure the people who are actually despatching these animals are not going to lie about it.
 
Sportznight said:
Playing devil's advocate, where does this 'fact' regarding in-foal broodies come from?

And again, well said Sally!
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As I already answered in previous post from the people whose living it is to deal with these animals. People can bury their heads in the sand all they like, it is happening & has happened for years. In-foal mares from top studs were being despatched back in the 70's, a fact.
 
Why are people so convinced that in-foal mares are not finding their way to the meat man? That this has increased over the last 2yrs and NOT just in Ireland. If it was not for the fact that I have heard it from the people involved then I suppose I would be like the rest of you. Something I have also noticed is the increase in the amount of Deceased TB's listed on NED for horses that are 10 & under. And yes I am sure quiet a few are down to things like injuries, colic etc.
 
Luke7 said:
The only people to blame are the stud farms.

They control the population of the throughbred industry not the prospective breeder/owner.
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There are hundreds of small breeders out there producing plenty horses. The stud farms mostly just stand the stallions and livery the mares.

However, I think Godolphin have a lot to answer for having offered what in effect was a free service to breeders.

The mare owners didn't need to pay the stud fee until the horses was sold, and if it didn't make the fee, they took what it did make. Or if Godolphin wanted the horse, they paid for it less the fee.
A shocking way to play the numbers game with their own stallions. :mad:
 
I don't see that what the OP wants to do is any worse than anyone who breeds their own horse. I bred from my mare because I wanted to! It would have been much cheaper to have bought a foal and I would have got exactly what I wanted with no 'gambling'.
If I hadn't bred Piper presumeably I would have bought another horse therefore creating a home for one...but I had a dream and the dream was to breed my own.
Just because OP wants to breed a racehorse and I wanted to breed a hunter...Piper might be no good at hunting!
We all have to have dreams or life would get awful hum drum.
 
Changes said:
There are hundreds of small breeders out there producing plenty horses. The stud farms mostly just stand the stallions and livery the mares.

However, I think Godolphin have a lot to answer for having offered what in effect was a free service to breeders.

The mare owners didn't need to pay the stud fee until the horses was sold, and if it didn't make the fee, they took what it did make. Or if Godolphin wanted the horse, they paid for it less the fee.
A shocking way to play the numbers game with their own stallions. :mad:
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"Shocking"? Or is it sound business sense?

A.
 
magic104 said:
As I already answered in previous post from the people whose living it is to deal with these animals. People can bury their heads in the sand all they like, it is happening & has happened for years. In-foal mares from top studs were being despatched back in the 70's, a fact.
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magic104 said:
Why are people so convinced that in-foal mares are not finding their way to the meat man? That this has increased over the last 2yrs and NOT just in Ireland. If it was not for the fact that I have heard it from the people involved then I suppose I would be like the rest of you. Something I have also noticed is the increase in the amount of Deceased TB's listed on NED for horses that are 10 & under. And yes I am sure quiet a few are down to things like injuries, colic etc.
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Again, can you point me in the direction of hard factual evidence? Not hearsay, evidence.
 
Dizzle said:
Hi,

Can you explain to me how you breed coloured tb's? I thought they had to be of solid colour to be Wetherby's registered? Sorry I though I'd asked this already on this thread but I can't see it, sorry to hijack but I've never seen or heard of a coloured tb!
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Hello Drizzle we bred the coloured Tb using a placed mare (the Dam) out of a well bred mare line grandam Mille fleurs sister to Mill reef, our mares sire is a group 1 winning sire who is also a sire of group 1 winners the coloured racehorses sire is a Tobiano 3/4 Tb stallion 1/4 I.D type we used this stallion as his sire Captan maverick own brother is a sire of a group 1 winner and their dam is a group 3 winner and there is also other winners in this pedigree we have gone a very different route to the US bred ones which carry the Frame Overo gene we did not want to introduce this gene to the UK TB for our own reasons.
I hope this gives you an idea of how we went about this our programme has been 10 years in the planning and 7 years in the making its not a marketing gimick try telling that to the coloured horses who now win at Hoys!
there are many coloured Pured breds now in the EU and its growing it will happen and trainers we have spoken to love it!
 
Sportznight said:
Again, can you point me in the direction of hard factual evidence? Not hearsay, evidence.
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Oh Im sorry Sportznight, I was not aware that someone who worked in the industry & saw it first hand then related it back was hearsay. How about you take a trip over to any of the slaughterhouses taking horses or talk to the guys who come out to despatch horses for a living. Is it hearsay that someone I know took one of these mares home to foal down & then had to return her once the foal was weaned. Are the numerous U-tube footages completely out of context? I agree the organisation that put them out do like to make a meal of it, but it does not alter the FACT it is happening. Last week someone took their cattle & there in a pen were 3 in-foal TB mares waiting to be processed. What the hell were they put in-foal for if they were to end up there a few months later!

Sportznight it was not difficult to find the info out, I am sure someone as smart as yourself can do exactly the same investigating. Mind I was not even investigating it, the matter came up inconversation. Same as when I had a chat with the guy who came to PTS my mare. It is his business & he volunteered the info, so it does not seem to be a huge secret. Though not sure how much confidentiality is involved, as no one actually wants to name the studs. Again I repeat why would anyone of them lie about it? This is someone who has seen them & another 3 who work in the industry. But as I said if people want to bury their head in the sand, so be it. I pretty damned shocked at the numbers, but then got told to actually think about the numbers that are bred each year, did I really think those that did not make it to the track, along with those coming out of racing actually found nice homes. A bit like the greyhound, there are more bred then there are homes.
 
"Figures from the British Horseracing Authority show the recession is starting to have an impact on the breeding of thoroughbred horses, with the number of new foals being registered in Britain declining 23% between 2008 and 2010.

The BHA pointed to its own slaughter figures, based on official Food Standards Agency returns, of British-born horses registered with an independent company, Weatherbys. These showed 499 racehorses were slaughtered in 2010, a drop of 9% on the previous year. A total of 340 British-born and registered racehorses were slaughtered for meat in 2008. The BHA figures do not include thoroughbreds born abroad, chiefly in Ireland, that have never been in training in Britain or horses lost in the tracking system.

According to a BHA submission to parliament in 2009: "Thoroughbreds that have never raced are also killed in abattoirs; our initial analysis shows around 800 such animals in England, Scotland and Wales were in that category last year and a considerable proportion of these will be former breeding stock."
 
As for vices there was an update supposed of been done in 2004 by Dr Christine Nicol, University of Bristol, and Amanda Waters, Hartpury College, on the effects weaning has towards developing stereotypic behaviour.

Quote "•Reassess your weaning technique. Bristol University and Hartpury College are looking into the importance of this by following the progress of different groups of foals. They are comparing thoroughbred foals, destined to go into training at two years old, with future eventers, who are brought on much more slowly. Conclusions will be published next year."
 
sallyf said:
Im departing this thread now and i wish the OP the best of luck with whatever choice she makes because at the end of the day it is a free country and she can do as she pleases.
She asked for some advice not a slating.
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Yep, but she refused to accept advice given by well meaning and experienced people, so why ask.
Basically a beginner should not dabble in a difficult industry unless she has some experience, and or professional support, well meaning amateurs are sometimes difficult to reason with.
 
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Sportznight said:
As for the OP lacking experience, we all have to start somewhere!
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I agree which is why I never get het up about those who have taken time to try to cover their bases when embarking down the breeding route. I just don't like to see people losing significant amounts of money that's all and unfortunately, as good as their plans may be, I think this OP will. I do however wish him very good luck and would LOVE to see success from this venture!
 
Sportznight said:
Regarding the subject of slaughter - the numbers are relatively meaningless without reason for slaughter or %. Worse things can happen to horses than death! - But no need to add to it

As for the OP lacking experience, we all have to start somewhere!
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- They do but for the animals sake it is usually better to get a bit more experience behind you first. Rather then breed in this climate what is so wrong in buying a weanling? They asked for advice, well not all of us are going to agree, not when it comes down to the welfare of an animal who is ten a penny right now. We have taken into account what has been put before us & advised accordingly.
 
There is a lot of sense in caution but part of the joy of breeding is working out HOW to do it.

We started breeding racehorses nearly 30 years ago and it was the breeding strategies of racing that formed the basis of Woodlander breeding. The importance of "black type" (that means Group and Listed race performance) in the dam line is a good indicator of likely price and also likely success as the two are directly connected and, more so than conformation!

We bred, as we do now, using line breeding. You need a mare that is related through the mother lines (not the Sire) to a good stallion and then breed back in going third dam to third dam. Some scientists say this is a spurious approach but it is a commonly held view I think and it certainly worked for us. If you buy a mare with performance in her back pedigree you can also see which lines have crossed well with her dam and grand dams. We bred several money winners from very few foals including a horse that ran in the Grand National and won £56,000. He was bred from a. then. 340guinea mare from Ascot covered by a 150 guinea stallion. The decision was based on the breeding of the full brother and half brother to the mare both of whom had Group or Listed form.

We are breeding thoroughbreds again but not now for racing. I went last week to Tattersalls to the Mare sale and the rock bottom prices were more than 3K by the time you add it all up. Some went for £2.4million! My first TB mare cost me 10,000 guineas in 1983 and I thought that was a lot but it was nothing for the premier league of racing.

Flat racers, particularly sprinters can be more expensive because they give a quicker return to owners and trainers. Real classically bred mares will also fetch money if there is form. You just have to sit and wait for the one that you can afford. The wrong sale is often a good place to look as buyers are going for reasons other than buying a filly or mare perhaps. Also go for the earliest or latest lots when interest is at the lowest.

Do your research and the thoroughbred industry is miles ahead of sportshorse breeding with sire data. Don't buy a mare with her own or her dam's breeding record showing a lot of unraced stock or barren years. That will be expensive too in lost time and opportunity.

Have fun
 
Yes Lynn,
fine to start breeding if the reason is sensible, to try breed a racehorse these days is not, but it seems only part of the reason, it is mainly to allow daughter to gain breeding knowledge, well she would be better working at a stud for twelve months, then going to college to learn the genetics side, and business management.
I suspect if OP is still reading her post she has gone off the idea. Lets hope she starts nearer the finishing post by finding a good trainer [who will look after her interests] and he buys her a good four year old.
This will get her in to racing, and give her plenty of interest, to wait seven years for such a project to mature from sperm to Cheltenham, well its hopeless.
 
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I've not had time to read the whole thread, so apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said.

I'm someone who's just embarked on breeding a racehorse. She's now 6 months old and due for weaning. We've already had our first setback - I went to see her at stud a couple of weeks ago and she was lame in the field. I think she'd gone over and tweaked herself, she's better now than she was but still a little stiff.

We all know that foals, and especially TB foals, are four-legged accidents waiting to happen. My costs were very modest. I paid only a few hundred pounds for the stud fee but the stallion has decent results for what he's produced. The mare was no great shakes on the track but is nice and good in her conformation, and has produced a very, very nice foal - to be honest she's exceeded my expectations. If my mare was poorly conformed or vice-ridden, I wouldn't have bred from her. But she's a 'nice' mare with a good temperament and not bad form in her pedigree (no black type, but winners). She has good things to pass on.

My OH and I are breeding for ourselves. We will own the filly always, unless she wins a big race and someone offers us the earth for her! We intend to gather a group of friends to share in the costs and, hopefully, the fun of owning a racehorse, and already have several people interested.

Regarding all the comments about irresponsible breeding - I agree that in recent years there has been a lot of mediocrity in breeding which inevitably leads to wastage. But not everyone has the money to own a Group or Grade horse - I'm never expecting this filly to run above Class 4 hurdles, and I'm certainly not expecting her to pay for herself.

I would also say that breeding costs for NH are cheaper, and at the moment it's not unreasonable to expect to pick up dams of winners for very reasonable sums.

I will never be Khalid Abdulla or the Aga Khan. I have a nice mare and would like to see if she can produce something that will win races. I don't think that's such a bad goal. I'm aware of the potential costs involved and if at some point we're faced with huge vet bills and have to make a decision that's driven by financial contraints rather than emotion, then so be it, but that's how I've always been with my horses.
 
It's just occurred to me, that the OP posed the question "How do I breed a racehorse" rather than "Should I"! ;) The "How to" offerings have been rather less, than the "Should I" responses, though I accept that the latter were well reasoned, and well intended.

Racehorses are a gamble, whether we stand in a betting shop, or own the mares, it seems to me. It also seems to me, strangely, that the single, or limited mare owners, seem to have proportionally greater success than the multi-mare-owning people. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Having doubtless digested the well thought out arguments on here, GMT, are you to persevere? I for one hope that you do, and if you do, then I'm sure that I'm not alone in wishing you well.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
It's just occurred to me, that the OP posed the question "How do I breed a racehorse" rather than "Should I"! ;) The "How to" offerings have been rather less, than the "Should I" responses, though I accept that the latter were well reasoned, and well intended.

Racehorses are a gamble, whether we stand in a betting shop, or own the mares, it seems to me. It also seems to me, strangely, that the single, or limited mare owners, seem to have proportionally greater success than the multi-mare-owning people. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Having doubtless digested the well thought out arguments on here, GMT, are you to persevere? I for one hope that you do, and if you do, then I'm sure that I'm not alone in wishing you well.

Alec.
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I don't think the OP [who has disappeared] has ever been in a betting shop probably never been to the races, in fact knows nothing about racing.
Lets hope she forgets the whole idea.
 
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