How do I discipline something that retaliates worse when told off?? Long post!

Tihamandturkey

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Of course it goes without saying that all horses should be treated with respect. My experience is that a gelding is more likely to shut down if being treated unfairly, whereas a mare is more likely to meet fire with fire. One of my mares could be called a typical mare (and she’s a chestnut Welsh!) but in actual fact she just has more facial expressions than my geldings. This is why I like having a ‘typical mare’ because I always know what she’s thinking and how she feels about something.

This 100%
 

wattamus

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Yes apologies for the typo! Small phone and stubby thumbs aren't a good partnership!
But I do agree, the typo may be very apt for the subject!
 

Old school

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Ive had 5 mares over the years and theres only one that I would have considered had a stereotypical mareish attitude, but I do wonder how much of that was due to her previous lifestyle. She used to attack people when they went in to feed her and had to be held back with a yard brush (this was many years before I got her).
I spent my childhood and teens hanging off this pony and cuddling and kissing her! I’m not entirely sure she was particularly happy about this but neither of us came to any harm and we ended up having the most incredible relationship. She was definitely the pony of a lifetime. She was grumpy in the stable but perfectly fine outside of it. But yes, people used to comment on her mare-ishness. I preferred to call it spirit!

My most affectionate pony was a mare. There was not a grumpy bone in the Divas body, she was the sweetest person I’ve ever met.[/QUO
When I am relaxing in my bedroom and various children come in to seek attention....I pin back my own ears.
 

windand rain

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Do I live in a weird parallel universe? Even Lady G's description of a 'typical mare' does not describe mine.

My grey loves being centre of attention all the time for hours. Fuss and groom away for as long as you can stand it, personal space? I don't get any when she's around. CM is a bit quieter and is stand-offish with strangers, but once she knows you she's a total sweetheart. My old TB was also an absolute darling and had a wonderful, affectionate temperament.

Discipline? What's that? (ETA - I suppose I mean the association of discipline with force) I correct undesirable behaviour and praise good behaviour. They soon try to get things right and indeed get things right when I mess up and roll their eyes at the silly human.

Girthy? No not at all even when in season. If one was girthy I would know that something was wrong even if it was just my mistake catching skin when doing the girth up or maybe something bigger.

CM is boss and she flicks an ear and they fall into line. The grey was a bit narked with the gelding when he first arrived but it quickly passed and they are best buddies. If he nips her bum she will wave a leg or pull a face at him, but frankly he deserves it.


I think we need to stop being so sexist and treat horses as individuals. Most horses are extremely biddable by nature, so unless a human messes them up, you have an animal that is ready and willing to learn.
Me too I dont recognise any of these so called typical mare behaviours mine you can do anything with, for or without question. Mind you I have owned them all from a young age so understand boundaries.
However I do have a gelding that was born bad, he was evil as a colt foal and didnt improve when gelded he would kill you as soon as look at you if the notion took him he kicks, bites and rears at you loose in the field. He should have been shot years ago but he redeems himself on a headcollar and is the perfect companion for others as he doesnt mind being left. Basically everyone is warned not to go near him, he is kept on private land away from gates and public access and he adores me so I can do anything with him I need to he knows the boundaries he rarely pushes them with me but if he sees even a flicker of fear he will have you. I deal with him on a headcollar if in close contact or if others need to see to him eg farrier he hates everyone. He is happy in his own world no one pressurises him he likes a fuss on his terms and as long as he never hurts anyone else he will continue to be my friend, he has broken my leg, he has badly bitten OH but left to his own devises he is a loving pony. The reason I have told you this is that you have to work out how to safely handle your mare and put in place the protection you and she needs to make her happy and she will give her all for you but try to bully her and she could turn out to be difficult no matter what you ask of her. All horses should be treated with respect and it is up to you to find the best way to teach her if you respect her seh will respect you. Always be firm but fair she has a brain too so you need to get inside it
 

Lois Lame

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I wouldn't expect any horse to just stand in a field to have a rug put on without a headcollar, I only ever do it with mine when there eating from a Hay net out there and I have geldings, it's actually quite a dangerous thing to do if the horse runs off and the rugs not secured properly the horse can get caught up trip over and hurt themselves.

A friend of mine patiently explained to me some years ago the importance of putting on a headcollar (and lead rope of course) on a horse at grass before taking off or putting on its rug.

Believe me, I asked lots of questions.

If for some reason you cannot 'secure' the horse, then it is much safer to undo/do up the straps in a certain order.

If putting on, the chest strap needs to be done up last. If taking off, obviously the chest strap would be undone first.

This is because if the horse gets away and takes off with all straps undone except the the chest strap, the rug can fall down in front of the horse like a giant bib. The horse of course can then trip and break its neck or leg.

It's such a simple thing. And big huge accidents can be caused by simple little things.

I've never forgotten her advice.

Another thing I was told was to never loop a lead rope in my hand. I always thought big huge loops were safe, but no. So since hearing that, I now hold a lead rope in a different way so that no round loop is formed.
 

Pinkvboots

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A friend of mine patiently explained to me some years ago the importance of putting on a headcollar (and lead rope of course) on a horse at grass before taking off or putting on its rug.

Believe me, I asked lots of questions.

If for some reason you cannot 'secure' the horse, then it is much safer to undo/do up the straps in a certain order.

If putting on, the chest strap needs to be done up last. If taking off, obviously the chest strap would be undone first.

This is because if the horse gets away and takes off with all straps undone except the the chest strap, the rug can fall down in front of the horse like a giant bib. The horse of course can then trip and break its neck or leg.

It's such a simple thing. And big huge accidents can be caused by simple little things.

I've never forgotten her advice.

Another thing I was told was to never loop a lead rope in my hand. I always thought big huge loops were safe, but no. So since hearing that, I now hold a lead rope in a different way so that no round loop is formed.

I was taught to always do the rug up in that order as well to prevent it slipping or getting caught, unfortunately a lot of people are not aware of the sequence.
 

windand rain

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Funnily I was always taught the opposite to do te rug up front to back and undo back to front as it means the hair lies properly and it is less likely to slip so even that has changed in 50 years
 

Red-1

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https://www.newrider.com/threads/update-new-mare.127041/

The link is about a difficult mare I bought some years ago, I blogged my progress with her, it's a long read granted...

And in short the mare had a poor start in life and what it took to bring her round a few people said it was because I liked her...sounds crazy but you need to read the thread to understand.

See, that is much more how I deal with mine too. A trainer I had once said that I don't train my horses, I just bore them to death until they do what I want. Now that is not what I do, but if that is what it looks like to an outsider, then that suits me.

I do think many people don't give a horse time to make a decision, they just barge in there with more instructions. There is an art to keeping the right amount of pressure on to keep the horse motivated to find the answer, without pressuring them into not being able to make that decision willingly and thoughtfully. Such as merely standing at the door until she shifts her attitude, then walking away. Simply being there, not interacting, was enough of a pressure to keep her mind working on the problem.

I have only read to page 3 of the blog, but OP, I would defo have a read.
 

JanetGeorge

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Its really not. Its an old fashioned stereotype trotted out by people who should know better.

And which bit don't you agree with, Leo? And may I ask how many different stallions you've handled both when teasing and coveing mares. And how would you cope with a mare who habitually tried to kick a stallion - no matter how nicely he chatted her up? And how many mares have you foaled? Of course, some geldings are hard to tell - and with ANY horse, asking is better.
 

milliepops

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Allowing time to make a decision is probably the key to actually training these slightly difficult horses, if they figure out the correct response then they've learned something and you're step further along :)
If you barge in too quickly trying to manhandle them then they think only about you and not about the question posed. So even if they do the correct thing they haven't actually learned what you needed them to.

I know it makes all the difference with my tricky girl but it does require genuine patience when they seem "stubborn"
 

milliepops

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and with ANY horse, asking is better.
I think that's the key bit, regardless of what experience *anyone* has had, it's a cliched saying that people can and do interpret as saying you can bully geldings (just read this thread for examples).
It also perpetuates the "stroppy mare" stereotype when lots of us find that to be absolute bunkum.
 

JanetGeorge

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Funnily I was always taught the opposite to do te rug up front to back and undo back to front as it means the hair lies properly and it is less likely to slip so even that has changed in 50 years
A friend of mine patiently explained to me some years ago the importance of putting on a headcollar (and lead rope of course) on a horse at grass before taking off or putting on its rug.

Believe me, I asked lots of questions.

If for some reason you cannot 'secure' the horse, then it is much safer to undo/do up the straps in a certain order.

If putting on, the chest strap needs to be done up last. If taking off, obviously the chest strap would be undone first.

This is because if the horse gets away and takes off with all straps undone except the the chest strap, the rug can fall down in front of the horse like a giant bib. The horse of course can then trip and break its neck or leg.

It's such a simple thing. And big huge accidents can be caused by simple little things.

I've never forgotten her advice.

Another thing I was told was to never loop a lead rope in my hand. I always thought big huge loops were safe, but no. So since hearing that, I now hold a lead rope in a different way so that no round loop is formed.

Exactly!! I have spent - um - more years than I care to remember - putting rugs on horses. And hell - at one job I had in Australia I was at first a bit appalled to be told there were usually - in winter - around 30 horses at grass I would have to remove rugs in morning- and put back in the evening. I was even more shocked at being told I didn't have time to waste and didn't need a headcollar! I did what the boss said for more than a year, without a single accident - and the rule was very strict about the order. Undo front first - leg straps last - and then pull! And do up leg straps first, front last! And make sure leg straps are verging on tight. The only 'serious' accident I found first hand was with a horse of my own - in England - so wearing a NZ rug which had leg straps AND surcinge. What did I find - a half-broken fence and a missing horse. I tracked him down eventually by following the trail of bits of rug. The trail went up and down steep banks to a fast flowing creek, and finally to the furthest field from his. The breast strap was still done up and the very front part of the rug - no more than 12 inches of it at the wither.shoulder parts. That was a miracle in itself, but the biggest miracle was standing and grazing with no more than a few scratches. My old boss's rule had never made even more sense than it did back then (1978). Because dear Branble SHOULD have had at least one broken leg and some serious wounds. After getting him back to the field I followed his trail with a bag to pick up the evidence of his journey - more than 100 'bits' of rug!! That meant dozens of GOOD opportunities for him to crash to the ground. I found several patches of 'evidence' in the first few hundred yards to prove he HAD fallen quite heavily at least a few times! I have never found ANY evidence of risk when a horse had managed to snap the breast plate of a rug - just a broken strap - easily replaced - after the horses literally stepped out of the leg straps that remained done up.

Now I'm not suggesting anyone takes the risk of rugging/unrugging in the field without a headcollar/lead-rope. My staff are not allowed to do it with ANY horse on my property - even ones I have known for many years and happily do it myself, lol. Because - even back in '79 - when I did to daily with many different horses - I did the horses in a quickly learned order based on that group's field dynamics (who is the bully, who will run from another horse sticking its ears back, etc.) But of course, while there was a 'risk' - it wasn't as hard or as dangerous as distributing bowls of nuts to all the horses in a group - that you do at the run, lol. Not that one horse will kick you - but he may sure guard his feed against the nearest horse to 'his' bowl - don't be in the way of that kick!
 

milliepops

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I received the bhs training about fastening the front straps last when rugging, too. So far the only rugging accident I've had (🤞) happened when the horse shot forward and the rug slipped back leaving him tangled in the surcingles and leg straps! If I'd done the chest straps first that wouldn't have happened.
I carried on doing them the bhs way for my exams but tbh I don't do it that way at home. Accidents will happen any which way but I learned that day it's easier to disentangle front straps than back ones when you're holding the front of the horse 😂
 

Pearlsasinger

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Allowing time to make a decision is probably the key to actually training these slightly difficult horses, if they figure out the correct response then they've learned something and you're step further along :)
If you barge in too quickly trying to manhandle them then they think only about you and not about the question posed. So even if they do the correct thing they haven't actually learned what you needed them to.

I know it makes all the difference with my tricky girl but it does require genuine patience when they seem "stubborn"


If you don't have patience, you shouldn't have horses!
Or indeed, any animal, or children.
 

Pearlsasinger

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well I would agree, but given that there aren't any entry exams for either, I think there are plenty of people with both who are a bit short on it ;)


Oh, I agree but that doesn't mean that some people shouldn't have either! I have long said that there should be an exam to pass before you can have children or pets.
 

JanetGeorge

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I think that's the key bit, regardless of what experience *anyone* has had, it's a cliched saying that people can and do interpret as saying you can bully geldings (just read this thread for examples).
It also perpetuates the "stroppy mare" stereotype when lots of us find that to be absolute bunkum.

EXACTLY! And at least one of the reasons mares' bad behaviour - especially when you KNOW that mare should NOT do that (VERY hard for a new owner unless former owner was VERY honest). Just in the past two years I have 'retrieved mares bred and backed by me - I confess - the actual backing and bringing on done unde my watchful eye rather than by me personally - I'm too old for the tricky moments. How do I know them so well and can be damned sure SOMETHING has happened in the time a horse wasn't under my watchful eye? Easy. I know both their parents, Iknow the behaviour of previous siblings and I met them - either just after they were born - or actually before the mare managed to deliver them.

Mare 1: 3/4id/1/4 TB. By a stallion I'd owned, ridden, handled during covering more mares than I can remember so I KNEW he was perfect. The dam, a mare i'd bought as a mount for a professional huntsman. She HAD turned into a rather naughty huntsman's horse after 3 months of her first season with him. I happily had her back as a brood mare - I liked her, and her blood lines. And I knew the huntsman well enough by then to think he wasn't a mare man!

So - mare 1 came back when, after 5 months of being 'perfect', she turned into a buckjumper - owner didn't even want her money back - just wanted to 'get rid'. I knew the reaosn she'd turned immediately she arrived - the clue was so obvious you'd have to bave been blind not to. (Actually a blind rider wold have known the moment she touched her anywhere near her wither!) She had the start of a fistulous wither which must have taken at least two months reach the point it was at. She must have felt pain from that saddle, and she tolerated it for a while before she started saying: f*** off and ended up screaming it. 4 months later I was ready to find the 'right' home for her - at a somewhat reduced price because there was always going to be that small question mark over her (horses aren't elephants but run them close in memory for bad things that have happened.) I found the perfect new owner, explained the full history and that - from another couple of full siblings - I knew she would not tolerate continuing pain. Thankfuly, that lady was knowledgeable and sensitive and 6 months has now passed. She is now competing at dressage, hacking happily, doing a bit of xc - and is a happy horse.

The second - very similar background. Father not my stallion , but know his owner very well and have bed 27 foals by him over the years. Mother home-bred, by my no. 1 stallion out of the sweetest mare to handle I have ever had. And her previous foals by the same stallion had been as close to easy-peasy as any young horse can be. Owner didn't let me know until 18 months AFTER it started going wrong - she was 'perfect' for the first 6 months. And then she was a buckjumper! Give that owner her due, she did spnd 18 months and quite a lot of money on vets, physios, ad other 'advice' and noting worked. I suspect she was a bit ashamed of herself as an owner and I took the mare back on a "give it 6 weeks and tell me if she's fixable, suitable as a brood mare only or should be PTS." There was a teensy question mark before she arrived (candidate for primary cause either back problem from ill-fitting saddle - or hind-gut ulcers due to lack of turnout.) She arrived, physio already organised for the next day - but touching her and watching stable behaviour had me convinced - even before the physio examined her and agreed - that it was severe hind gut ulcers which probably came on after first ill-fitting saddle had been replaced but winter - no turnout - caused them when added to remembered back pain. 'Fixing' her to the point that I was confident enough to risk putting a potential buyer on her, took closer to 6 months than 6 weeks. It was a gamble for me financially as owner wouldn't pay a penny towards the costs and my only chance of getting livery etc was that she could be sold for a reasonable price as a GOOD Class 1 Irish Draught mare for a rider - not a breeder (breeders just aren't spending money on brood mares these days!) It was a win-win-win-win! Mare now is happily settled in a new home, new owner knows the risk signs to watch for and knows what risks she must avoid, I got costs covered and stopped worrying about my baby's future and owner got a bit more back than she'd have got if mae ended up being thought 'unrideable'.

Ask the questions - and then look for then look for the answers. And that is where you start! More questions, keep looking for the answers (and persuade the horse she agrees with you.) DON'T blame the horse! Whether it's a mare - or a gelding - or even a stallion!
 

milliepops

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Well I'm glad to hear they got happy endings, for sure not every horse is so lucky. But to me that shows is that every horse needs asking, not just a mare, not discussing with a stallion, and not telling a gelding... therefore the saying is outdated ;)
 

JanetGeorge

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Well I'm glad to hear they got happy endings, for sure not every horse is so lucky. But to me that shows is that every horse needs asking, not just a mare, not discussing with a stallion, and not telling a gelding... therefore the saying is outdated ;)

lol, but at least it might make people think a bit more. I guess there are alternatives I could offer based on experience with a stallion who'd been abused (and killed 3 stud grooms as a result!) Be polite to a stallion and ask his co-operation or you are likely to end up dead!

But the most important one: Horses are all different - with different reasons for different behaviours. Ask them why!!
 

southerncomfort

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I've had almost exclusively mares and I don't hold with the 'typical mare' stuff at all. All mine have been an absolute joy to own.

HOWEVER, the early days with a new mare I've found can be interesting! They do need a bit more persuading that their new human is an alright person to be around. Setting ground rules early with consistency and fairness while still allowing them to express their opinions I think has been key. Trying to rule with an iron fist really doesn't work.

The good news is that once you have them on side you have a friend for life.

Having said all that, we bought a gelding a little over a year ago and he is still constantly testing the boundaries and can be really, really uncooperative! In this instance I think it might be me that's the issue as I just find him irritating and the feeling is definitely mutual. My solution is to back off and let the girls take care of him as he is somewhat less narky with them.

Give me a good mare any day! 😄
 

JillA

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Me three. I’ll admit that mine rarely have headcollars on. I usually do rugs after tea when they are eating hay but sometimes not. I’d be very shocked if they did move, but if the rug is done up in that way it minimises the risk somewhat.
The headcollar mine have on is a bucket feed - and training. But they have been with me for many years, a new addition would be a different matter until I had desensitised it. And they are in separate paddocks which helps - just shows you generalisations are not a good idea
 

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Totally agree :)
I have 4 mares at the mo and none of them fit the "typical mare" descriptions on this thread or others. They are all different, all have their own *normal* in terms of flirtiness, hormones, whether they enjoy cuddles or prefer their own space, none are aggressive or moody or girthy unless there is something wrong with them that needs attention. All of them have been willing partners and highly rewarding to have around.

I also agree with a previous poster that if the OP's reaction to undesirable behaviour is to start yelling or hitting the horse then a gelding is not deserving of that either. Time to take a bit of time out and learn how to train horses in a constructive way :)
Thank God for some sense.....
 

SatansLittleHelper

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I have always said I don't get on with mares, find them stroppy and uncooperative etc. The truth is that I got hurt and very frightened by ONE mare, years ago when I was in my mid teens and just developed a mental block about them. In my head I had decided they were all the same and treated them accordingly, which meant they behaved accordingly.
What I absolutely didn't do was give every individual the benefit of the doubt and react to them personally. After a few years of riding some mares and generally having more to do with them I have discovered that my own bad attitude towards them has prevented me from developing some amazing relationships. I now know that mares can be super, they can be loving and friendly, willing and tolerant. I think they can be trickier to unlock than geldings but this is part of their charm. Now that MY attitude towards mares has changed THEIR attitude towards ME has changed (shock I know lol).
Being the "boss" isn't something to aspire to with ANY horse in my humble opinion....but developing a true partnership is a real gift :)
 

Inda

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I adore mares, I find geldings a bit dull.

My two year old filly was admitted to the hospital and let in the care of someone that didn't like mares, and I ended up with this. It took me months and a new brush to get near her mane or tail. I'm assuming one of the students smacked her with it. I wasn't best pleased.

We have 2 mature stallions in the yard, and three colts. One stallion is in charge of his herd, the other is generally beaten into submission by the lead mare. She's due to foal any day now, and is getting exceedingly cranky.
 

Pinkvboots

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I adore mares, I find geldings a bit dull.

My two year old filly was admitted to the hospital and let in the care of someone that didn't like mares, and I ended up with this. It took me months and a new brush to get near her mane or tail. I'm assuming one of the students smacked her with it. I wasn't best pleased.

We have 2 mature stallions in the yard, and three colts. One stallion is in charge of his herd, the other is generally beaten into submission by the lead mare. She's due to foal any day now, and is getting exceedingly cranky.

Well that's not a happy herd the stallion should not be subjected to bullying everyday that is just cruel, and she is obviously not feeling safe and happy or she wouldn't be so aggressive towards him, not my idea of how to keep horses poor bloody foal being born into that situation that's quite sad.
 

JanetGeorge

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Well that's not a happy herd the stallion should not be subjected to bullying everyday that is just cruel, and she is obviously not feeling safe and happy or she wouldn't be so aggressive towards him, not my idea of how to keep horses poor bloody foal being born into that situation that's quite sad.

I confess I wouldn't run ONE stallion with my mares, even if they were all in foal to him. Some people do so - safely enough. Some stallions are smart enough to accept a 'no' from a mare who might be showing in season but not quite ready. Oters are smart enough to figure out the safest approach to a mare who ALWAYS kicks at the stallion beore and/or after he mounts. Some people I have heard also leave foals in the field with the in-foal again mothers AND the stallion. That to my mind carries enormous risk: I once knew a herd of wild donkeys whose owner did that. Young jacks would be chased out of the herd or even killed at the very first sign they were becoming 'interested' in the jennets, and of course the very young jennets were mated by their sire. The Alpha mare is often a bully to other mares over food, I guess they would be just as bossy to the stallion lower down the stallion pecking order.
 
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