How heavy is too heavy?

[_MizElz_]

Didn't Hedgehunter win and then later get placed in the Grand National when carrying nearly twelve stone? Just a thought...

I have always fought with my weight; I have been thirteen stone or thereabouts for the last six years, and although I have been on the Slimfast diet since last July (having tried Weightwatchers, going to the gym, swimming etc), whilst I have not gained weight, I don't appear to have lost much either. I ride a 15.2 Arab x SF - so not chunky at all - but nobody has ever suggested that I am too big for her. Naturally, it has always been something that has worried me as I am conscious that my BMI is ridiculously high; however many people (my doctor included) have been shocked to find out how much I actually weigh. I'm no skinny mini to look at - I'm a size 12-14 (jodhpur size 30) in most clothes - but when I've seen other people on weight loss programmes who weigh the same as me, they tend to be quite a lot bigger to look at and several dress sizes larger...

As an aside - my family and I were on holiday in Cornwall a few years back, and Mum and I decided to take my brother (non horsey) for a beach ride. We were required to give our weights and heights when we booked in - Mum was 15 stone, I was 12.5 at the time (both of us 5'2) whilst my brother, at 5'9, weighed 11 stone. They brought the horses out for us, and it turned out they had given Mum and I two Shires, whilst my brother was on a very fine 14.1 pony; his feet were virtually dragging on the floor....

It seems we fell foul of a 12 stone and under rule...

 

[Leah3horses]

'And the old "Arabian and fully grown man hundreds of miles easily thing" - yes, they are famous for having dense bone, and yes, the average Beduoin male is probably well under 12 stone'

Who said anything about Bedouins? I was referring to modern day Arabs who carry modern day male riders, and win the harshest endurance races over 100km

And, to refute your point about Arabs apparently carrying less than 12 stone, if you are right and Bedouins weigh less than 12 stone, which we can't generalise about but yes some will do...look at the footing...soft sand, the heaviest going a horse can probably have... will make a ten stone rider feel considerable heavier . Hence the need for Arabs to be incredibly strong for their size and be able to carry full grown modern male riders all day

 

[Trinity Fox]

I did comment earlier in this post that many horses carry too much weight however i dont think there should be a 12 stone weight limit i think you have to take everything in to account bone size of horse rider fitness etc.

It has been commented to look at well founded facts where exactly does the 20% rule actually come from, alot of horse are carrying well above this and these are the cases i think are carrying too much also 33% is suggested above really?
I dont think any horse should be carrying a third of its body weight, strap a third of your body weight on your back and hump it around for a while and before you say humans werent designed to carry things around it has just been pointed out neither were horses we just decided to get them to carry us.

I dont think you have to be a stick to ride but you have to draw the line somewhere sensible.

 

[Wagtail]

Is there still a fashion for people to be 'over horsed' size wise? A few years ago when I was last on here, there were lots of petite ladies with huge warmbloods? I'm in no way petite lol at 5ft 8 and 13 stone but my Sasha Tank is a Clyde cross of 650kg...but only 15.2, looks and ride much bigger because of her huge frame I've ridden a 14.2 Dales who was a fab weight carrier.

If you look at horses in America, paints,quarter horses etc, none are over 15hh and they aren't as big build as our natives..but they were bred to carry fully grown men all day, for weeks on end (cowboys). To some here they look under horsed, but I think it's our fashion to be over horsed. Any UK strong native pony with decent bone above 13.2hh ish should be able to carry an adult easily.

IMO 20% of the horses weight does apply to fine TBs etc..but not to our natives/IDs/heavies etc...I'd say more like 33% for them..remember their weight is evenly dispersed over 4 strong legs and they are capable of carrying much more weight than most here seem to think..look at Arabs for another example...Champion Endurance Arabs again carry fully grown men at speeds over 100km..I think the current world record holder horse is a little over 13.3hh, and not particularly chunky,just very good dense bone.

Don't think there would be many cases where you'd have to worry about top end weight with our natives, proportionate to height and build of the horse. In all reality, with respect, it's highly unlikely my horse would be expected to carry a 30 stone rider, which is what I'd say her high end rider weight would be

Yes, for around 20 seconds. That's ridiculous. I think we are talking about weight carrying ability for dressage, show jumping, eventing etc. Or even day to day hacking. Yes I'm sure my Tb would be CAPABLE of supporting 30 stone but not working under that weight. It's like weight lifters that can lift huge amounts, but only for a few seconds. A mare can take the weight of a stallion when she is covered. I tell you what. This thread is making me quite angry at what some people think their horses can cope with.

 

[Leah3horses]

As i said, people just don't want to know about being too heavy!!!!

Why is it so hard to recognize a horse moving freely, using his whole back and swinging along ? It simply doesn't manage this with an overweight rider on board.

Why don't people spend more time just watching how horses move??
Then they would understand why many professionals and private owners alike are careful about what they will ask their horses to carry.

Sorry to labour this point , but as the owner and a fan of true weight carriers, it seems you are generalising a tad too much...what professionals and private owners decide for their poss TB or Warmblood type Sports Horse re what weight they will carry, is of course, good horse welfare. However Ozpoz, with respect, you seem to draw a rather large thick black line through any horse being able to carry more than 12 stone. Which is plainly ridiculous. You may have personal distaste for what you call 'overweight' riders..and if somebody is definitely overweight for the particular horse they are riding then that would be painfully obvious, even to a layman, and should not be allowed to happen, for the horses welfare, obviously. But your opinions about what weight individual horses are happily able to carry are incorrect...or are you thinking just of TBs here?? If you are generalising about all horses then I cordially invite you to visit my Clyde cross super heavyweight mare..who could happily carry me at 13 stone and you (at a guess ) at 8 stone ish, and another 8 stone friend Evidence vs opinion....evidence every time for me

PS I have ridden at 9 stone, at 16 stone (both extremes due to life threatening illness and associated drugs) and at 5ft 8 and 13 (only a size 14)stone me and my beloved mare are just happy I am alive and healthy enough to hack out together.

 

[Wagtail]

That's rather a sweeping statement.my horse wouldn't even notice 20stone on her back . Haffies have got to be one of the stongest, toughest horses you can get...they evolved being a working horse, pulling and carrying huge loads up and down MOUNTAINS!! They have very dense, strong bone and a low centre of gravity. With respect please please think about what you are saying, (not you personally, everybody)as if you haven't got the experience or knowledge to back it up, it can come over as sheer ignorance.

If you think a horse won't notice twenty stone then I think that it is you who are being ignorant. Just because they tolerate it doesn't mean it is not unkind to them. I think there are too many people making sweeping statements about how horse 'feel'. Just as other athletes have to keep fit and keep in shape, so should horse riders.

 

[Leah3horses]

Yes, for around 20 seconds. That's ridiculous. I think we are talking about weight carrying ability for dressage, show jumping, eventing etc. Or even day to day hacking. Yes I'm sure my Tb would be CAPABLE of supporting 30 stone but not working under that weight. It's like weight lifters that can lift huge amounts, but only for a few seconds. A mare can take the weight of a stallion when she is covered. I tell you what. This thread is making me quite angry at what some people think their horses can cope with.

How dare you imply that I would put my horse at risk?? Where does it say we are talking about sports horses? I thought this was a thread about HORSES in general.My horse is not a weedy TB for gods sake!!! Who ever said a TB could take 30 stone????!!!!! How ridiculous.

She is a super heavyweight Clyde x who weighs 700kg and has 12 inch bone!!! This thread is making me very angry at the ignorance and generalisation on this forum. My beloved horse would NEVER be expected to carry 30 stone, even though I know she could as she has hunted with a 22 stone rider , very easily!!!Please re read and do not assume and insult people due to your ignorance

 

[Elsbells]

There are some people who seem to think horses shouldn't have to work at all.

I'm fat and fifty and tonight my mare galloped and straight from walk to canter, across an open field with my mass on her back, several times.

She had jogged her way up there knowing where we were going. It's a massive field, but could I pull her up? Well only just! We would of jumped a ditch if she'd ben allowed to!

I called it a day before she wanted to, so we then jogged home.

This poor mare is a 16h SFx who came to me in a lot of pain because she had been hammered in her jumping life by some featherlight kid going hell for leather every weekend with her.

She's now fit and well and ridden almost every day by me for at least and hour and half. She is very
happy and has a wonderful life.

Tomorrow we are on a 12 mile hack. So would you say I'm being cruel?

 

[Wagtail]

How dare you imply that I would put my horse at risk?? Where does it say we are talking about sports horses? I thought this was a thread about HORSES in general.My horse is not a weedy TB for gods sake!!! Who ever said a TB could take 30 stone????!!!!! How ridiculous.

She is a super heavyweight Clyde x who weighs 700kg and has 12 inch bone!!! This thread is making me very angry at the ignorance and generalisation on this forum. My beloved horse would NEVER be expected to carry 30 stone, even though I know she could as she has hunted with a 22 stone rider , very easily!!!Please re read and do not assume and insult people due to your ignorance

You said that your horse's high rider weight would be 30 stone. That i what I quoted. I said that even my TB could stand 30 stone for a small amount of time to illustrate what a ridiculous statement you made. There are too many people like you making people feel okay about subjecting their horses to more weight than is good for them. I make no apology for that as I am looking out for the horses' welfare.

 

[Leah3horses]

Well said Els Bells, your horse sounds wonderfully happy and a free spirit.

 

[Elsbells]

Well said Els Bells, your horse sounds wonderfully happy and a free spirit.

Thankyou, I think so and what you have said makes a lot of sensible good sense

 

[Wagtail]

There are some people who seem to think horses shouldn't have to work at all.

I'm fat and fifty and tonight my mare galloped and straight from walk to canter, across an open field with my mass on her back, several times.

She had jogged her way up there knowing where we were going. It's a massive field, but could I pull her up? Well only just! We would of jumped a ditch if she'd ben allowed to!

I called it a day before she wanted to, so we then jogged home.

This poor mare is a 16h SFx who came to me in a lot of pain because she had been hammered in her jumping life by some featherlight kid going hell for leather every weekend with her.

She's now fit and well and ridden almost every day by me for at least and hour and half. She is very
happy and has a wonderful life.

Tomorrow we are on a 12 mile hack. So would you say I'm being cruel?

I have no idea what you weigh or how you ride, so I cannot say whether or not your horse should be carrying you. I would not say that you sound like a cruel person though, no.

 

[Charliepony]

9 Stone (put on a stone in 2 months, eughh)

16.2hh (and growing it seems) WB youngster and two tbs, 15.2hh and 15.3hh, one is 8 years old and the other is 14. I feel too big on anything under 15hh, but I'm pretty tall (5'10) so that's the main reason. I wouldn't buy anything for myself under 15.2hh unless it was a heffalump (strong native breed) and I had fallen in love with it. (though can't see that happening, I'm hooked on ex racers!!)

To be honest if I ever felt I was too big for my horse, I would either lose weight or sell him and get a bigger/sturdier one. Even if the horse could 'technically' carry my weight, but it was something that constantly worried me, I would do something about it.

 

[Onyxia]

You said that your horse's high rider weight would be 30 stone. That i what I quoted. I said that even my TB could stand 30 stone for a small amount of time to illustrate what a ridiculous statement you made. There are too many people like you making people feel okay about subjecting their horses to more weight than is good for them. I make no apology for that as I am looking out for the horses' welfare.

Not quite honest though,is it?



From Leah3horses :

Don't think there would be many cases where you'd have to worry about top end weight with our natives, proportionate to height and build of the horse. In all reality, with respect, it's highly unlikely my horse would be expected to carry a 30 stone rider, which is what I'd say her high end rider weight would be

And your responce :

Yes, for around 20 seconds. That's ridiculous. I think we are talking about weight carrying ability for dressage, show jumping, eventing etc. Or even day to day hacking. Yes I'm sure my Tb would be CAPABLE of supporting 30 stone but not working under that weight. It's like weight lifters that can lift huge amounts, but only for a few seconds. A mare can take the weight of a stallion when she is covered. I tell you what. This thread is making me quite angry at what some people think their horses can cope with.

L3H was talking about a sturdy native,bred to carry dead stags down form the hills and your responce was about your TB.
L3H is IMO correct- for most well put together larger native ponies,the rider would be unable to mount long before their weight was a problem for the pony to carry!


Wagtail you are fixated on the idea of a TB sports horse,I assume thats because thats what you won and do with it,but the TB is not a precious flower about to keel over- it is a breed which ,as stated earlier in the thread DO regulary jump at the gallop with 12 stone on top.
I have know a fair few out of racing,the ones with problems had poor conformation at the root of it,the sound ones were well put together- the breeding,not the work caused issues in those that had them.

I do not for one moment think it is OK to ballon up without thought for your horse,we owe it to them to stay as fit and slim as we can without putting our own health at risk,but we also need to remember that horses can not only do much more then is asked of most,but thrive on the extra work.

 

[Elsbells]

I have no idea what you weigh or how you ride, so I cannot say whether or not your horse should be carrying you. I would not say that you sound like a cruel person though, no.

Whoops! Sorry wagtail, this was no directed at you, but perhaps my confidence? This is an emotive subject I'm afaid, but entertaining for the viewer.

I'm 13.6 stone and I know I need to loose some/lot

I like to think I ride light and she feels like I am, comments are often made about her forwardness

However, I don't jump her although she would love me too and I always take care of her before my own ego.

 

[Wagtail]

Whoops! Sorry wagtail, this was no directed at you, but perhaps my confidence? This is an emotive subject I'm afaid, but entertaining for the viewer.

I'm 13.6 stone and I know I need to loose some/lot

I like to think I ride light and she feels like I am, comments are often made about her forwardness

However, I don't jump her although she would love me too and I always take care of her before my own ego.

Sounds like you are fine And certainly not cruel.

 

[Wagtail]

Not quite honest though,is it?



From Leah3horses :


And your responce :


L3H was talking about a sturdy native,bred to carry dead stags down form the hills and your responce was about your TB.
L3H is IMO correct- for most well put together larger native ponies,the rider would be unable to mount long before their weight was a problem for the pony to carry!


Wagtail you are fixated on the idea of a TB sports horse,I assume thats because thats what you won and do with it,but the TB is not a precious flower about to keel over- it is a breed which ,as stated earlier in the thread DO regulary jump at the gallop with 12 stone on top.
I have know a fair few out of racing,the ones with problems had poor conformation at the root of it,the sound ones were well put together- the breeding,not the work caused issues in those that had them.

I do not for one moment think it is OK to ballon up without thought for your horse,we owe it to them to stay as fit and slim as we can without putting our own health at risk,but we also need to remember that horses can not only do much more then is asked of most,but thrive on the extra work.

30 stone i too heavy for any horse and certainly even a heavy horse should not be hunting all day with 22 stone plus tack. That is my opinion. I think it is irresponsible to encourage people who should be losing weight (for their own health and the comfort of their horses) that they are fine. Of course they should not be insulting or unkind, but to actively encourage someting that could be dangerous to their health, is cruel IMO.

 

[marmalade76]

I am 5' and weigh between 9 and a half and 10st.

I ride a 14.2 native (not quite sure which, either connie, welsh or NF) x TB.

Personally, I think being over-weight has a detrimental effect on your ability to ride, regardless of what that weight may be. When I was getting on for 11st (post baby), which isn't heavy for someone of normal height but is for someone of 5', I simply could not ride as well as I could when lighter.

 

[Leah3horses]

Not quite honest though,is it?



From Leah3horses :


And your responce :


L3H was talking about a sturdy native,bred to carry dead stags down form the hills and your responce was about your TB.
L3H is IMO correct- for most well put together larger native ponies,the rider would be unable to mount long before their weight was a problem for the pony to carry!


Wagtail you are fixated on the idea of a TB sports horse,I assume thats because thats what you won and do with it,but the TB is not a precious flower about to keel over- it is a breed which ,as stated earlier in the thread DO regulary jump at the gallop with 12 stone on top.
I have know a fair few out of racing,the ones with problems had poor conformation at the root of it,the sound ones were well put together- the breeding,not the work caused issues in those that had them.

I do not for one moment think it is OK to ballon up without thought for your horse,we owe it to them to stay as fit and slim as we can without putting our own health at risk,but we also need to remember that horses can not only do much more then is asked of most,but thrive on the extra work.

Well said Yunalesca...I went off the deep end due to that person mis quoting and putting words into my mouth I never actually said, and then accusing me that my horses welfare is compromised based on her made up argument!...I think anybody would be absolutely furious with that kind of statment.Thank you for reading my post properly, and your sensible input..just to clarify, my horse is a 15.3 Clydesdale cross, with 12 inch bone and a massive muscular frame. I have a 6ft 4 friend who weighs 22 stone,he is muscular and a good rider. My horse loves him and actually goes better from him even than me, as she loves jumping and I'm not really a jumper. That is how strong she is...she weighs over 700kg and as a proportion 30 stone is only 30% of her body weight, and in my experience I'd say around 33% is the highest weight a good strong heavy horse can carry...incidentally...33% is also how the Argentinian ranchers work out which horse carries which cowboy all day long. And I'm pretty sure some polo ponies carry over 33% of their bodyweight

Hope that has opened a few eyes to the reality of what a good, extra- strong horse with stamina and fitness can happily carry

 

[Onyxia]

30 stone i too heavy for any horse and certainly even a heavy horse should not be hunting all day with 22 stone plus tack. That is my opinion. I think it is irresponsible to encourage people who should be losing weight (for their own health and the comfort of their horses) that they are fine. Of course they should not be insulting or unkind, but to actively encourage someting that could be dangerous to their health, is cruel IMO.

Are you missing the point on purpose? Plenty on here prefere a barney to a debate....

L3H said the horse could carry up to 30 stone in her opinion. I do not know the horse,you do not know the horse, she does.I more then likely is a good old fashioned tank of a hose that will carry anyone.

She went on to say (IIRC) that she could not think of any time the horse would be asked to carry what it is capable of.

I also know my brothers did carry 30% of their body weight out running in the caddets- they all had to complete a 10k run with a 5 stone pack on their back in no more then 5 mins over their unladen time- brother has no joint of back damage

 

[Leah3horses]

I have a 17.2 hh ID that weighs 750kg and he was obviously uncomfortable when an 18 stone rider came to try him for a share. I run a livery yard and have owned and trained horses for 30 years. I can recognise the signs of a horse not being comfortable. Maybe you need to take a closer look. Also, I don't know why you have locked in on me for your insults and shouting as I have said that 30 stone is too heavy and others have said 12 stone should be the limit. I actually think it should be around 16 - 18 stone for very heavy horses.

Yawn are you still flogging your dead horse (scuse the pun) . Doh a 17.2hh ID is not going to have anywhere near the carrying potential of a shorter, 15.3 true heavy horse weighing the same. Obviously. Next?

 

[Wagtail]

Are you missing the point on purpose? Plenty on here prefere a barney to a debate....

L3H said the horse could carry up to 30 stone in her opinion. I do not know the horse,you do not know the horse, she does.I more then likely is a good old fashioned tank of a hose that will carry anyone.

She went on to say (IIRC) that she could not think of any time the horse would be asked to carry what it is capable of.

I also know my brothers did carry 30% of their body weight out running in the caddets- they all had to complete a 10k run with a 5 stone pack on their back in no more then 5 mins over their unladen time- brother has no joint of back damage

But she thinks its okay for a horse to do a full days hunting with 22 stone plus tack on its back. I don't think it's okay. I am not missing the point. I am just shocked at what some people expect of their horses. We will have to agree to differ.

 

[Wagtail]

Yawn are you still flogging your dead horse (scuse the pun) . Doh a 17.2hh ID is not going to have anywhere near the carrying potential of a shorter, 15.3 true heavy horse weighing the same. Obviously. Next?

I think you expect too much. But that is simply my opinion and there is no need to have got so shouty and insulting. I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong. No need for the name calling.

 

[Onyxia]

But she thinks its okay for a horse to do a full days hunting with 22 stone plus tack on its back. I don't think it's okay. I am not missing the point. I am just shocked at what some people expect of their horses. We will have to agree to differ.

I think there are horses out there who could cope with it,provided the rider was made up of muscle not fat.
Time will tell,the horse will either retire sound or it will not- but many over the years have carried large weights daily without ill effect.


ETA,as I said before I do belive we as riders owe it to our horses to stay as fit and slim as we can without adversly affecting our own health.
I am not "pro" dumping fatties on tiny ponies,neither am I pro anyone over 12 stone be forbidden to ride anything.

 

[Leah3horses]

Wagtail, you can think what you want, of course. But to put it in print and accuse somebody of being cruel to their horse blah blah blah when you have proved several times now you are only interested in your own (wrong) opinions is foolish and ignorant.

Is your ego really so big that you refuse to accept fact? If you think a 17.2hh ID is a true weight carrying heavy horse, you are compounding your obvious ignorance in public. Again.

As Yunalesca and I have already pointed out to you,several times. You are ignoring and twisting what I say about my own horse, and saying she is not cared for properly, or even worse, you are saying her welfare is poor. When you know absolutely nothing, your own narrow experience is nothing to quote on this subject. Your silly statement that a heavy horse should carry only 16 to 18 stones is saying they can only carry 15% of their bodyweight. You are becoming a laughing stock. Please stop coming out with absolutely ridiculous ignorant statements.

Yunalesca is spot on when she says my horse is a good old fashioned tank of a horse who will carry anybody. Now what are you going to come up with next, are you really so pig headed??? I feel sad for you, wasting so much time trying to prove something, But when something is wrong, it's wrong. Deal with it. What you say is totally wrong on the subject of MY HORSE!!!!!

 

[Onyxia]

Yunalesca is spot on when she says my horse is a good old fashioned tank of a horse who will carry anybody. Now what are you going to come up with next, are you really so pig headed??? I feel sad for you, wasting so much time trying to prove something, But when something is wrong, it's wrong. Deal with it. What you say is totally wrong on the subject of MY HORSE!!!!!

Bugger,I am Sheffield- perhaps it wil be that we all abuse them while scoffing pies in Yorksire?

 

[Leah3horses]

The difference is, when I realise I am wrong or have insulted somebody and their horse, which I'd never do,as an adult I would take full responsibility for spouting off.

I don't think you are wrong. I know you are wrong. Yunalesca thinks you are wrong. My horse definitely knows you are wrong. My 22 stone friend who takes my horse hunting knows you are wrong. All you have is your own ignorant opinion. It's wrong. Sorry and all that but your ignorance is still glaring through this entire thread. You do not listen to evidence but just keep plowing on..jeez...get a life

 

[Leah3horses]

Bugger,I am Sheffield- perhaps it wil be that we all abuse them while scoffing pies in Yorksire?

Lol yes, of course, we are all 30 stone pie eating very novice riders , new to horses,who all ride skinny TBs everywhere, make them go hunting and everything when we haven't got a clue what we are on about Must get the firemen out again to hoist me out of bed onto my weedy horsey, playing polo today you know

 

[YorksG]

Among our lot are included a 16.3 IDxHannoverian and a 16hh Ardennes type. The Ardennes type has such a large barrel that we cannot get the weight tape to even give us a weight! The nearest approximation we can make is 800kg (our farrier guesses at 3/4 of a ton, when she leans on him!) The taller mare is about 575Kg. The Ardennes type is very short in the back, the IDx is very long. The Ardennes has the thickest legs on a horse that I have ever seen, the taller IDx has nowhere near as much bone. For anyone to suggest that the weight limit for either of these horses should be 12 stone is ludicrous. Good grief my 15.3 araby type Appy would cope well with 12 stones, even with her stick legs! (She actually gets to carry 5'6" 9stone rider). I agree with the poster above who believes that if the person can bend well enough to get on the Ardennes type then she could carry them, with no welfare issues at all. This would not be the case for longer backed ID.

 

[ozpoz]

hmm , this would be hilarious if the result of too heavy a rider didn't result in PAIN.

Pain is the consequence of long term cumulative load carrying wearing down joints.

It's a welfare issue that many prefer to shut their eyes to, because they cannot or will not bother to recognize it. It is easy to spot lameness in one front leg but I've seen amazingly high numbers of riders who just don't recognize hind leg, or back lameness.

Very, very sad.

I am not one who believes in a 12 st weight limit, just to put the record straight. And I do not believe a horse will stay sound carrying 22stone either.
Nor do I think it is ok to ask it to.