How heavy is too heavy?

[*hic*]

No. That's why I said SOME horses. Also I was just giving an example of horses that are riding in some heavy kit & are ok with it. As I said it has be a well chosen horse.
Your last statement is like me saying by your logic no heavy horses should be pulling drays or carts because they are over 20 stone in weight.

*giggles*

After my jumping picture I'd now like to say that my Section A has easily pulled a two wheeled cart with over 35 stone in. She just didn't really notice it - but I do know how to balance the cart properly so that even I, a middle aged overweight person, can move it with 35 stone in.

 

[tazzle]

thank you bugbee

that cerainly seems to have presented sound evidence using stated assessment criteria and blood test results rather than just opinion.

It does clarify the position for that area where this 12 stone ish "limit" does seem to have appeared for some horses and most pones about 14hh.

edited to add

from lady lala

.. I did wonder to myself why she thought letting her horse carry such a dangerous amount of weight was alright

perhaps its not dangerous for a cob ?

mine does not think so , fit and sound aged 16

would you have said the same if it was a man on a cob...... we do as a society tend to regard / treat any overweight ( even fit ones) (or even just anyone a size 14 heaven forbid) harsher.

 

[Solo1]

So.... at 9 1/4 stone and at 5'8, would riding my 14.2hh IDxTB x connie be unfair on her?

 

[Jane1706]

I have to admit I did watch the Trooping of the Colour at the weekend and all those glorious Cavalry horses in full kit with riders in full military dress some in bearskin helmets some with Silver Breast plates not to mention the Drum Horses, and thought of this thread.

I am assuming that letters will be written to the Queen telling her that she is cruel and thoughtless

 

[Lady La La]

Tazzle, I think you missunderstand me.. it was the cob carry too much of his own weight, which, of course IS dangerous.
.. It was the riders concern for her own weight and not that of her horse that confused me.

 

[shadowboy]

So.... at 9 1/4 stone and at 5'8, would riding my 14.2hh IDxTB x connie be unfair on her?

It would depend on her weight and bone....

 

[tazzle]

Tazzle, I think you missunderstand me.. it was the cob carry too much of his own weight, which, of course IS dangerous.
.. It was the riders concern for her own weight and not that of her horse that confused me.

ahhhhhhhhhhh I see , yes I did misunderstand , sorry

I agree that obesity in horses is often overlooked ...... and especially when its could be used in ignorance to calculate how much weight carrying ability it can do !

I am concerned about both of us being at healthy weights (and I am currently losing weight I put on due to a medical condition) and when I was at my heaviest I did not ride Taz, we drove more ( and long lined so I had to walk )



I must actually go find the research I read recently that indicated that mild "overweightedness" does not impact health concerns as much as lack if fitness... ie if a person is classed as overweight it is more important to be fit / do excercise than it is to be thin

Nowt as good, nor as frustrating, as changing "official" / scientific evidence

 

[diet2ride]

I try to stay clear of these kinds of threads... Purely because I don't want a public flogging. And I also think most of them are started just to cause a witch hunt.
What does annoy me though when you put into a search engine how much weight can a horse carry you get directed to these kind of links. Where you get a lot of personal opinions and not much in the way of real answers, and as for the ‘science bit’... I’ve also read that report and tbh I don't think it stands up. No one knows for sure if my horse will be sorer going out for a 4hr hack with a 9st rider or me riding him for 15mins.
For me personally there is a limit at 25st I couldn't ride. At a fitter 23st yes I can walk around and do a few strides of trot. I have taken the personal decision to wait until I am less than 300lbs before I get back on him, there is no science in this I just know in my heart I will feel more comfortable. If I happen to get there and still feel an inadequate rider I shall wait until I have lost more.
I spent the last four years of my life searching the Internet for an answer that isn't here. If I had followed my gut I would of been riding but instead I listened to the kind of waffle I have read on here, when the issue of overweight riders comes up why do people who obviously don’t have a weight problem even post!!!
I am not mean to my horse at all; I have a lot of respect and love for him, so why should I be ridiculed because I am overweight – being fat isn’t a lifestyle choice, its something that happens to you the same as ocd kicks in on some people, Or even depression.
As for long term health issues, We all know of a horror story where a dressage horse has a breakdown after years of training... Someone even said to me as they advance it's to be expected that they develop problems. Should we all start flinging stones at Carl Hester! it happens in every discipline. And no matter how fluffy we might like to treat our horses some are bought to do a job and be worked to the end of their limits.
This is me when I first got Nas…

http://youtu.be/Nanm06LnHB8

Four years later…

http://youtu.be/42p4qcpQI3Y

And this one just because, I think it shows the partnership between horse and rider isn’t all about fluffy bunny slippers…

http://www.nowness.com/day/2010/9/2/nacho-figueras-by-matthew-donaldson

 

[Onyxia]

On the back of that would anyone NOW like to comment on this very fit 13.3 470Kg Welsh carrying 14 stone of rider and tack. Note that the scientific evidence shows changes above 25% not 20% and this boy is carrying (just) under 20%. He does have rather a lot of bone as well, in fact well over 9 inches. In my defence I am wearing my body protector here.

Very nice pony- I am a sucker for a giner native
You do have to wonder if Wagtail managed to read the text she added,or if she just assumed it was her opinion as it clearly comes down on the "side" of what others have been saying all along- 20% of the horses ideal weight is the guide and then take the other facters (such as rider ability,and the composition of their weight) into account when you make your decision.

I have said repetadly that I truely DO belive we need to stay slim and fit- we owe it to our horses,but we to set a weight limit for riding is bloody stupid as by the time most are heavy enough to do any damage,they will be unable to mount anyway!

 

[ozpoz]

Please bear this in mind when you are calculating - it's research from 2004, and I quote

"Fruewirth observed that accelerations within canter could generate a force of up to two and a half times the weight of the rider."

Going by this, it means that up to 50 stone could impact on your horse,if you ride at 20 stone.
Now, someone please convince me that this is not a welfare issue!

 

[PapaFrita]

"Fruewirth observed that accelerations within canter could generate a force of up to two and a half times the weight of the rider."

Going by this, it means that up to 50 stone could impact on your horse,if you ride at 20 stone.
Now, someone please convince me that this is not a welfare issue!

20 stone is, according to Google, 127kg. 127kg is 20% of 637kg. A wb can easily weigh that much, so according to the rest of the research quoted, no significant strain at all. A chunkier, draught type, at a greater mass and therefore weight would would find it even easier to carry. Welfare issue? No, I don't think so.

 

[ozpoz]

Sorry, papa~Frita I don't go with the 20% being ok, long term.
But I've said all this before.

 

[PapaFrita]

Sorry, papa~Frita I don't go with the 20% being ok, long term.
But I've said all this before.

I did also say that 20stone/127kg on a larger/stockier and therefore heavier horse would be rather less than 20%. A draught horse can easily weigh over 900kg and a shire/clydesdale even more.

 

[bugbee717]

All those fat riders oh just came up with best idea, I have ten horses soooo I am gonna start riding two at a time, therefore each will only have about 10 and half stone, job done. If frederic pignon can then so can I, if any needs to borrow a horse pm me lol

 

[Solo1]

What would you consider too heavy for my pony then...

IDxTB x Connemara, 14'2hh

I'm 9 stone 4 IBs, will I be 'cruel' by riding her? :S

 

[rema]

You must be joking,.Your horse could carry one and a half of you easily.

 

[tallyho!]

You're back to my point about bearing surfaces and muscle attachment points! Each of the bones in a long backed, heavily boned horse will proportionally have more bearing surface and bigger, stronger muscle attachment points than those in a light boned horse. In either case a horse which is correctly fittened and muscled up will last much longer.

I'm so sorry jemima_too but I really don't see how what I have said has anything to do with muscle attachment points (entheses) and infact what you have said is anatomically incorrect.

Entheses have nothing to do with weight bearing. What I was saying had relevance to physics.

Your argument is based on physiology, which still isn't correct because entheses are the WEAKEST points on the body and are most at risk from force injuries which is why people and horses injure tendons most easily at those points.

 

[tallyho!]

20 stone is, according to Google, 127kg. 127kg is 20% of 637kg. A wb can easily weigh that much, so according to the rest of the research quoted, no significant strain at all. A chunkier, draught type, at a greater mass and therefore weight would would find it even easier to carry. Welfare issue? No, I don't think so.

Eh??? I don't get that!!! So, a fat horse can carry more weight than a thin horse??

Not only does the horse have to carry it's own excess weight, it has to carry someone elses too??

Is that what you are saying? If not correct me

 

[*hic*]

I'm so sorry jemima_too but I really don't see how what I have said has anything to do with muscle attachment points (entheses) and infact what you have said is anatomically incorrect.

Entheses have nothing to do with weight bearing. What I was saying had relevance to physics.

Your argument is based on physiology, which still isn't correct because entheses are the WEAKEST points on the body and are most at risk from force injuries which is why people and horses injure tendons most easily at those points.

So presumably, and I'm happy to be corrected, having a larger area to attach larger muscles would make them less weak?

 

[*hic*]

Eh??? I don't get that!!! So, a fat horse can carry more weight than a thin horse??

Not only does the horse have to carry it's own excess weight, it has to carry someone elses too??

Is that what you are saying? If not correct me

I stand to be corrected again as I'm guessing what PF intended but the words "chunkier draught type" were used to indicate just that, ie an Ardennes or similar, not "an obese horse".

 

[PapaFrita]

I stand to be corrected again as I'm guessing what PF intended but the words "chunkier draught type" were used to indicate just that, ie an Ardennes or similar, not "an obese horse".

Exactly this.

 

[Wagtail]

Very nice pony- I am a sucker for a giner native
You do have to wonder if Wagtail managed to read the text she added,or if she just assumed it was her opinion as it clearly comes down on the "side" of what others have been saying all along- 20% of the horses ideal weight is the guide and then take the other facters (such as rider ability,and the composition of their weight) into account when you make your decision.

I have said repetadly that I truely DO belive we need to stay slim and fit- we owe it to our horses,but we to set a weight limit for riding is bloody stupid as by the time most are heavy enough to do any damage,they will be unable to mount anyway!

Yes, it made my point exactly. Some people on here are approaching 30% or more of their horse's bodyweight. That is what I am arguing is cruel, not 12 stone.

 

[Wagtail]

I try to stay clear of these kinds of threads... Purely because I don't want a public flogging. And I also think most of them are started just to cause a witch hunt.
What does annoy me though when you put into a search engine how much weight can a horse carry you get directed to these kind of links. Where you get a lot of personal opinions and not much in the way of real answers, and as for the ‘science bit’... I’ve also read that report and tbh I don't think it stands up. No one knows for sure if my horse will be sorer going out for a 4hr hack with a 9st rider or me riding him for 15mins.
For me personally there is a limit at 25st I couldn't ride. At a fitter 23st yes I can walk around and do a few strides of trot. I have taken the personal decision to wait until I am less than 300lbs before I get back on him, there is no science in this I just know in my heart I will feel more comfortable. If I happen to get there and still feel an inadequate rider I shall wait until I have lost more.
I spent the last four years of my life searching the Internet for an answer that isn't here. If I had followed my gut I would of been riding but instead I listened to the kind of waffle I have read on here, when the issue of overweight riders comes up why do people who obviously don’t have a weight problem even post!!!
I am not mean to my horse at all; I have a lot of respect and love for him, so why should I be ridiculed because I am overweight – being fat isn’t a lifestyle choice, its something that happens to you the same as ocd kicks in on some people, Or even depression.
As for long term health issues, We all know of a horror story where a dressage horse has a breakdown after years of training... Someone even said to me as they advance it's to be expected that they develop problems. Should we all start flinging stones at Carl Hester! it happens in every discipline. And no matter how fluffy we might like to treat our horses some are bought to do a job and be worked to the end of their limits.
This is me when I first got Nas…

http://youtu.be/Nanm06LnHB8

Four years later…

http://youtu.be/42p4qcpQI3Y

And this one just because, I think it shows the partnership between horse and rider isn’t all about fluffy bunny slippers…

http://www.nowness.com/day/2010/9/2/nacho-figueras-by-matthew-donaldson

Your horse is unsound in the first clip. He is swishing his tail continuously in the second. He is clearly struggling with your weight. I am sorry, but it is obvious.

 

[Wagtail]

Sorry, papa~Frita I don't go with the 20% being ok, long term.
But I've said all this before.

I personally think one sixth is a far better measurement, but will accept the research of 20% being acceptable, especially when we see that some people are riding horses and they are almost a third of their weight when you include tack. Maybe we have to accept that it could be worse!

It should also be a percentage of the horse's ideal weight and not their 'overweight'.

 

[bugbee717]

Wagtail did you read that report, you seem to be missing that the report was done to see if the relation of cannon bone and loin size has any baring on the carrying ability of a horse, not the carry ability of the horse.

 

[bugbee717]

Based on your one sixth, my 3 year old son with tack is too heavy to ride our 11.2 dartmoor hill pony. He weighs 2 stone 11 pound, so with tack boots etc he is well over weight. Some how I feel not. Maybe one sixth for a tb type, I use that in a loose term, but not native ponies/ horses or heavier set ponies. As the research does state bigger loins and wider cannon bone, have a better ability we weight.

 

[Chavhorse]

Diet 2 Ride - Kudos for having the balls to post the video's and also for your fantastic weight loss so far (I have looked at your blog and you seem to be doing brilliantly). Nas looks like a complete superstar and I hope you get to the point soon where you and he can be a happy partnership.

From my part I will admit I never have been and never will be a fairy and have always owned horses that tend to need a man or a strong woman (fall very much into the second category)never looked at anything smaller than 16.2.

However since losing 15 kilos in the last 5 months I have to say I now ride much better and my balance is 100% improved, it also means for the first time ever I am currently riding a 15hh Appaloosa and to be honest at 5ft 6 it feels better and my instructor says it suits me better so my new horse will be a max of 15.2.

The 12 stone thing is a bit of a non argument my instructor weighs 75 kilos (almost 12 stone)add to that a western saddle and pad (no idea how much they weigh but my god they are heavy!) and he regularly rides the same 15hh Appy that I do, and a 15.2 QH X TB.

Over in Holland the max weights in Riding schools is between 85 (13.3 Stone) and 90 (14.1 Stone) but then most people here are very very tall and big boned.

 

[firstponyMinto]

I must say that I found diet 2 ride's last link really painful to watch, poor horses mouth! & his stressed out eyes.......

 

[Wagtail]

Based on your one sixth, my 3 year old son with tack is too heavy to ride our 11.2 dartmoor hill pony. He weighs 2 stone 11 pound, so with tack boots etc he is well over weight. Some how I feel not. Maybe one sixth for a tb type, I use that in a loose term, but not native ponies/ horses or heavier set ponies. As the research does state bigger loins and wider cannon bone, have a better ability we weight.

That isan excellent point. I do think bone measurement is also a good guide tp weight carrying ability. Also, I suspect that little pony's can probably carry a slightly larger percentage of their body weight than a taller horse. You only have to look at gymnasts and how strong they are for ther size, and ants can carry 20 times their own weight.

 

[tallyho!]

So presumably, and I'm happy to be corrected, having a larger area to attach larger muscles would make them less weak?

Ummm, I'm now thoroughly confused (doesn't take much ) I thought I said attachments points were irrelevant and I also said bone thickness is irrelevant. Actual attachment points (entheses) are very weak structures in the body.

I was trying to say it had everything to do with the horse as a whole and calculation made up to determine ability to carry any weight needs to be taken with a pinch of common-sense.

I stand to be corrected again as I'm guessing what PF intended but the words "chunkier draught type" were used to indicate just that, ie an Ardennes or similar, not "an obese horse".

Ok, I get it now. I'm glad she meant that or I'd be having kittens....