HOYS announcement regarding judging

SilverLinings said:
I don't get why someone would want to keep competing if they knew that they were always going to win/qualify/be highly placed on whatever horse they took into the ring? The feeling of winning in a sport is amazing when you know you've put in hard work and dedication and were the best on the day, if the win is guaranteed then it means nothing. I suppose it supports their job, in that it keeps clients using them/their yard, but it's such a dishonest and depressing way to earn a living.
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I'm not going to lie. I have pot hunted, recently too, and there is absolutely NO satisfaction in collecting those rosettes. It increases the value of the pony. The last one - I did not win the championship because of who I am. I won it because the pony had been bought off of his breeder a few months before and the judge is best pals, and God father to their kid, with the ponies breeder. Sometimes if you can't beat them, join them. I have no illusions of qualifying for HOYS BTW!

There have been lots of rumours going on about this show. Dodgy height certs, doping, badly performed shows being marked highly etc. These are performance classes yes but breed type and conformation also needs to be taken into consideration. Many people look at their animals through rose tinted specs. I'm not saying this was the vase at NOE as something has gone seriously wrong there. But at a more basic level.
 
Just read through the comments and mostly negative about the current state of the showing world, which I mostly agree with. But lots of constructive ideas for ways forward. The sport will die if things don’t change. I’m not naïve though, I have a lovely young horse and know if I want him to be successful showing I would have to place him with a well known producer - shouldn’t be like that. I’m still hoping to have a go in amateur classes, some do do well ??

ETA hoping somebody comes along to enlighten us about what went on at NOE to bring all this out.
 
Floofball said:
Just read through the comments and mostly negative about the current state of the showing world, which I mostly agree with. But lots of constructive ideas for ways forward. The sport will die if things don’t change. I’m not naïve though, I have a lovely young horse and know if I want him to be successful showing I would have to place him with a well known producer - shouldn’t be like that. I’m still hoping to have a go in amateur classes, some do do well ??

ETA hoping somebody comes along to enlighten us about what went on at NOE to bring all this out.
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But you DONT need to have them professionally produced. Producers do well because it's their job to. If they didn't have the horses looking and going well they wouldn't be winning so no one would be paying them. Its their job to make these animals the best they can be. Producers know every trick in the book to make a mediocre horse look great. An amatuer who doesn't put the work in can make an outstanding horse into something mediocre. If you work hard enough beating the professionals is perfectly doable! You just have to be better than them and have the mind set to do it. Of course there will always be some dodgy judges but not as many as you would think - especially not in the horse ranks compared to ponies. You just need to take note of the good judges and the bad judges and stick with the good ones.
 
Friends of mine who have had show ponies for years have said its got really bad they have been doing it less and leaning towards doing dressage now.

I have been to shows with them and they can predict the placings before it even starts and they get it right, they just get disheartened as they really work hard and just find it harder and harder to bother with it now.
 
I've been out of the showing world for a fair few years, but its always been the same gripes even when I was showing back in the day. It's who you know, if the face fits, underhand shenanigan's, get the pro to qualify then take the ride back, etc, etc.

What I am wondering if if the cost of living crisis has sort of highlighted it more? I was shocked at the lack of entries at Cheshire this year, not even close to making double figures in some of the HOYS classes! I remember when it would be 20 deep, and I imagine a lot of those would have known they wouldn't be in with a serious shot, but it was a nice day out so what the hell.

It would be nice to think it will be a shake up for the industry as there are a lot of problems, but somehow, I'm not holding my breath. My youngster will go out and see some of the world showing and then once she's four go and do other things...
 
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There are as in all sports and life good ones doing it right and others not. My horse was professionally produced, hard work, proper horsemanship, no gadgets, no tricks at one of the top showing yards. Flip side current horse missed a championship qualification finishing second to a professional produced horse that subsequently tested positive from that class and not for bute. By time test result and disqualification far too late to do anything about the championship not qualified for.

As above, it is a producer's job so they should be good at it. My current horse would probably have been to HOYS a number of times if produced as they would have done a better job than I can.

There were only 5 hunters in one of the HOYS qualifiers at the Hickstead Derby meeting and another show there were no hunters in one of the sections and many small classes all round although Great Yorkshire looks fairly decent - 39 RoRs I think although the RoRs are well supported generally.
 
Pinkvboots said:
Friends of mine who have had show ponies for years have said its got really bad they have been doing it less and leaning towards doing dressage now.

I have been to shows with them and they can predict the placings before it even starts and they get it right, they just get disheartened as they really work hard and just find it harder and harder to bother with it now.
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I personally don't think it's any worse. It was the same when I was competing in the BSPS in the 1980s. The difference now is, with social media, it's discussed more.
 
In Spanish horse showing (called morphology competitions) they film every competitor and put them online for viewing along with the scoresheet. It is really good but still doesn't stop certain studs winning because of who they are ??
 
Floofball said:
Just read through the comments and mostly negative about the current state of the showing world, which I mostly agree with. But lots of constructive ideas for ways forward. The sport will die if things don’t change. I’m not naïve though, I have a lovely young horse and know if I want him to be successful showing I would have to place him with a well known producer - shouldn’t be like that. I’m still hoping to have a go in amateur classes, some do do well ??

ETA hoping somebody comes along to enlighten us about what went on at NOE to bring all this out.
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It's about naughty ponies, so it is the ride element that is being monitored rather than the conformation.
 
shortstuff99 said:
In Spanish horse showing (called morphology competitions) they film every competitor and put them online for viewing along with the scoresheet. It is really good but still doesn't stop certain studs winning because of who they are ??
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That wouldn't necessarily make a difference. I did some senior showing with my old boy. The organisation that runs the classes provides scoresheets for the judge to fill in. At the first affiliated show I did, I came second to a very smart cob. I don't deny that he was lovely, his rider was very experienced at showing and did a very correct and accurate individual show compared to my fairly amateurish attempt (it was only my second go at showing in about 20 years) or that he deserved to win but what happened next perplexed me to say the least. When the judge gave us our rosettes she told me how wonderful it was to see a horse of his age in such great condition and moving so freely and told the winner her horse was obese and it was affecting his movement, making him stuffy. When I went to collect my scoresheet, the winner's was still there. She had beaten me by one mark. We had one or two marks in most categories separating us, some I scored more highly and in others she did, but two categories where she had a higher mark than me were condition and movement.

Even if that had been videoed, she could have said the cob moved better than Monty IN HER OPINION (and that's fine, that's showing) however unless the camera was right next to her, no video would have picked up what she said to the winner and to me which would have called her scoresheets into question. It was clear to me she had to make the marks reflect the early decision she had made that the cob was going to win (and again, that's fine as it's her opinion that matters) rather than marking each category and then allowing the scores to make the decision (as a dressage judge would). I'm guessing she never expected me to see both sheets side by side and even if I questioned it, she could deny she ever said what she said to both of us.
 
I took my homebred 3yr old to hickstead CHAPs qualifiers, not cheap and was very successful at a local level, placed at the bottom of the line up in both classes, asked the judge for constructive comments as not cheap to try to progress, if she wasn't good enough to go to a higher level I wouldn't have been offended, but was told nothing wrong with the pony, just not produced!!! The judge then tried to back track. I was completely shocked and must admit it did upset me. Never shown again
 
Abesmum said:
I took my homebred 3yr old to hickstead CHAPs qualifiers, not cheap and was very successful at a local level, placed at the bottom of the line up in both classes, asked the judge for constructive comments as not cheap to try to progress, if she wasn't good enough to go to a higher level I wouldn't have been offended, but was told nothing wrong with the pony, just not produced!!! The judge then tried to back track. I was completely shocked and must admit it did upset me. Never shown again
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I had issues with chaps classes. Of the 9 classes I showed in only 1 judge appreciated a good shetland. The rest ditched him. One judge said he was "too much of a boy" - he was a 4yo Colt! He walked into a ring with a swagger, a bit of a jog and making a bit of noise, just announcing his presence, but by the time he had got down the first side he always shut up and got on with the job and never put another foot out of line. I asked another if it was worth persisting with a shetland and she said no, they get lost in amongst all the hair of the bigger cobs. Not quite sure how you could lose the smallest pony on the ring who stood out like a sore thumb but hey ho! The final nail in the coffin was being put last behind a lame cob and another who didn't do a stride of walk and spent most of its time throwing its head around and plunging. I quit doing chaps after that.
 
Elf On A Shelf said:
But you DONT need to have them professionally produced. Producers do well because it's their job to. If they didn't have the horses looking and going well they wouldn't be winning so no one would be paying them. Its their job to make these animals the best they can be. Producers know every trick in the book to make a mediocre horse look great. An amatuer who doesn't put the work in can make an outstanding horse into something mediocre. If you work hard enough beating the professionals is perfectly doable! You just have to be better than them and have the mind set to do it. Of course there will always be some dodgy judges but not as many as you would think - especially not in the horse ranks compared to ponies. You just need to take note of the good judges and the bad judges and stick with the good ones.
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This is true but, having stewarded at some of the larger shows where the big name producers go, one of the tricks is to intimidate the judge, an unspoken I dare you in body language. In this situation the judge should be the outside of this, but in reality everyone knows just about everyone in the line up, apart from the ones who are not on the circuit, there is chit chat in the line, if the judge also shows stock, next week the roles can be reversed, you have to be pretty thick-skinned, not to be influenced.
Some judges are hell bent to get an animal through, at one WHP comp, the confirmation judge pushed in to the box to try and make sure a certain pony won, it had done a rubbish round, so it didn't, but judges can try and fiddle the marks to get the 'right' result.
At top level there is a very small pool of people doing competing and judging, the judges are not paid, so most want to do it for a nice day out and see some nice horses, they don't want aggravation, and someone mouthing off about them outside the ring, so I think the temptation is to play safe, You see it in lots of competitions, its easier to give something a high mark when they have won before, and not make a brave choice.
I remember one judge who stood out, they got back chat in the ring, they finished the classes which ended. with a HOYS, had a fag and said right, I am going to sort them out and tell exactly why they didn't win. I would have loved to have been there.
 
honetpot said:
This is true but, having stewarded at some of the larger shows where the big name producers go, one of the tricks is to intimidate the judge, an unspoken I dare you in body language. In this situation the judge should be the outside of this, but in reality everyone knows just about everyone in the line up, apart from the ones who are not on the circuit, there is chit chat in the line, if the judge also shows stock, next week the roles can be reversed, you have to be pretty thick-skinned, not to be influenced.
Some judges are hell bent to get an animal through, at one WHP comp, the confirmation judge pushed in to the box to try and make sure a certain pony won, it had done a rubbish round, so it didn't, but judges can try and fiddle the marks to get the 'right' result.
At top level there is a very small pool of people doing competing and judging, the judges are not paid, so most want to do it for a nice day out and see some nice horses, they don't want aggravation, and someone mouthing off about them outside the ring, so I think the temptation is to play safe, You see it in lots of competitions, its easier to give something a high mark when they have won before, and not make a brave choice.
I remember one judge who stood out, they got back chat in the ring, they finished the classes which ended. with a HOYS, had a fag and said right, I am going to sort them out and tell exactly why they didn't win. I would have loved to have been there.
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True but there are still good judges out there. But sometimes it really is the competitorstl that are rhe problem. I stewarded for one judge earlier this year who had a pen in his top pocket. But it wasn't a pen, it was a camera that recorded everything. They have worn it for a couple of years now after he dropped a horse out of a qualifying place because it performed badly and the owner went absolutely mental at him, calling him every name under the sun and then reported him to that particular showing body trying to get him struck off of the judges list.
 
thefarsideofthefield said:
It works both ways though ? ! I once won a class at county level because the elderly judge thought I was someone else .
I had a young native pony in his first open class , we got pulled in 1st after the go around and then the judge stood and chatted to me for the whole class , barely paying attention to anyone else . And it was a very weird conversation which left me greatly confused ! When she finally tottered off toward the steward the rider next to me leant over and whispered " She thinks you're xxxxxxx " and pointed at a well known producer who was way down the line with a face like thunder .
I said " What should I do ? "
She said " Keep quiet ! ". She thought it was hilarious . And sure enough as the judge handed me I got my red rosette she said " Well done xxxxxxx . "

Nb - just thought I would add that my pony was actually very nice and did go on to have a succesful showing career on his own merits !
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brilliant.
 
I think the biggest issue is not that it’s unfair to competitors but that it leads to poorer quality horses, who haven’t won on their own merits, becoming popular breeding stock.

The whole point of showing is to identify the best specimens of the breed.

And gradings are worrying too. I know a premium graded horse with a well known society with such wonky forelegs that it’s effectively retired at 7 and will be lucky to see 8. It is conformationally broken and that would have been evident.
 
This is true. Not quite as extreme in terms of soundness but if you read the Dales breed standards they don't match the current fashionable lines. Welsh cob trots and gypsy cob hair seem to be the winning attributes. They are not Dales standard though and this will impact the breed going forward as the popular stallions will have too much influence in a rare breed with a limited gene pool.
 
The one and only time I've been showing as a teen I was told my pony was not covered enough/jumping condition, and too well schooled (not an equitation class my dear). I came last to some well known local families on obese waddling ponies. ?
 
I think the only reason to go showing, as an amateur, is if you want a nice day out. It’s great for that, or for youngsters to get experience of parties, but anyone who actually thinks anything is judged solely on its merits needs to give their head a wobble. It’s just one persons opinion on the day, so even if it was judged fairly, it’s really not worth getting upset over the results.

I’ve been placed first, because the judge was besties with the previous owner. I didn’t know this at the time and genuinely thought my cob must be better than I thought he was! I did however take that with as much of a pinch of salt as the fifth rosette in the next class.
 
meleeka said:
I think the only reason to go showing, as an amateur, is if you want a nice day out. It’s great for that, or for youngsters to get experience of parties, but anyone who actually thinks anything is judged solely on its merits needs to give their head a wobble. It’s just one persons opinion on the day, so even if it was judged fairly, it’s really not worth getting upset over the results....
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I agree with this, but, it's a sad thing really! You should be able to produce your own animal and if it's good enough get to the top without it being a popularity contest between the people showing and judging...
 
HufflyPuffly said:
I agree with this, but, it's a sad thing really! You should be able to produce your own animal and if it's good enough get to the top without it being a popularity contest between the people showing and judging...
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You definitely can do this. I have a couple of friends who are home produced, not 'names' and have qualified for HOYS so it's certainly possible.
 
I had a big horse I showed locally in-hand as a hunter as a 3 yr old for the experience. He was never in 'show' condition and lived out apart from the night before a show. His feet weren't great either. If we had a judge who liked big horses and the grass was long (so they couldn't see his feet) we did well. If they didn't like big horses and the grass was short - we didn't. I had an arrangement with my dad that he who paid the entry fees kept the prize money so there was much schedule studying as we tried to predict these things. I remember it as a lot of fun.
 
Aside from showing being "facey", which it always has been, some who believe they have been judged unfairly/become disillusioned have unrealistic expectations in the first place. Their horse/pony isn't as good an example as they think it is, or it might be, but isn't produced to its best advantage.

The number and size of plaits to suit the neck, stragically placed quarter marks to enhance the rear, longer jackets to help disguise a weak back (before bum freezers became de rigour, that is), a saddle (and stirrups) with the comfort of a judge riding the horse considered, not yourself, ringcraft too etc etc etc. Little - and not so little - things that matter. Then there's choosing your judge, not in an underhand way but in terms of knowing their type/preferences.

In my BSPS days, there was one particular WHP judge who was obsessed with greys, big up to height greys, which was unfortunate when I had a chestnut, also on the small side, and she really didn't like him. Even if he was the only clear so she had no choice but to put him first, I always felt she did so with very gritted teeth. If it was grey and clear, it would be placed every time above my chestnut, very frustrating when one particular grey on the circuit had few redeeming features. We still showed under her but accepted if any greys went clear too, we'd always be placed behind them every time. There was also another judge who adored my little chestnut. If any shows clashed, it was the show where he was judging that we went to. Sometimes, if the same pro/horse is winning under the same judge, it's not necessarily always the back scratching or favouritism towards a producer some may perceive it as.

On saying that, it's why I liked doing workers - no producers and a level playing field with a course of fences involved. Or I should say a more level playing field, as there were some whopping "ponies" around in those classes back then, who must have limbo danced their way under the measuring stick - another big (excuse the pun) problem societies show no real inclination to tackle.
 
I did a worker a few years ago with a very smart Belgian warmblood. Judge liked him, he got good marks for his jumping etc etc and we won. Judge walked past him after the rosettes had been awarded and exclaimed " oh God he's got a brand - I'd never have put him up if I'd known that"
 
I really wouldn't to be a judge!! Someone my fb has posted her in her class at the Royal Norfolk saying her horse should have been placed higher, he went beautifully blah blah. Her friends have commented that she was by far the best in the class etc. No actually you were not the best, there were a fair few nicer horses and the overall picture of quite a few were a lot nicer!! But as we all know, we all take the best horse home!!
 
fetlock said:
Aside from showing being "facey", which it always has been, some who believe they have been judged unfairly/become disillusioned have unrealistic expectations in the first place. Their horse/pony isn't as good an example as they think it is, or it might be, but isn't produced to its best advantage.

The number and size of plaits to suit the neck, stragically placed quarter marks to enhance the rear, longer jackets to help disguise a weak back (before bum freezers became de rigour, that is), a saddle (and stirrups) with the comfort of a judge riding the horse considered, not yourself, ringcraft too etc etc etc. Little - and not so little - things that matter. Then there's choosing your judge, not in an underhand way but in terms of knowing their type/preferences.
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It's this all day long.

How you turn your pony out is a massive deciding factor. My dad (a hoys judge) always told us how important first impressions are. He said he decided on his first 6-8 ponies in the first pull in within the first 30 seconds of the ponies being in the ring. Often that 6-8 changed once he had seen them up close, but those were his short list. It wasn't unknown for him to bring a pony from much lower down the line if he had missed something either. I stewarded a lot for him and I learnt so much, things you don't see from the outside of the ring or as a competitor.

We never had any money for posh expensive ponies, but we were at hoys, ponies UK etc every year and won on more than one occasion. Turn out and ring craft are a massive part of showing. It's an art. You and your horse need to catch the judges eye and be a pleasure to watch (and ride).

I'm not saying the underhand judging doesn't go on. it does! Dad called it the brown envelope brigade!
 
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