HOYS announcement regarding judging

I took my young horse in a hunter class. Her first ever show. She went beautifully. She went lovely for the judge as well. We were placed down the line to a chap who deals in hunters etc and was well known on the circuit. When the judge came to speak to me I asked why we had been placed down the line, knowing full well why, he replied ' she gave me a lovely ride but your tack is wrong!! It was the same tack everyone else was in that was appropriate for the class!!
Another time, showing my Welsh A in a big class we were pulled I second which I was thrilled with. My pony was an absolute diamond. I asked the judge where we lost marks and apparently it was for manners??? The winner was a stallion that was actually quite rude. I accepted it, roll of eyes. As we walked out the ring the stallion turned round and booted some poor women in the stomach!! Yeah great manners!
 
minesadouble said:
You definitely can do this. I have a couple of friends who are home produced, not 'names' and have qualified for HOYS so it's certainly possible.
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dorsetladette said:
It's this all day long.

How you turn your pony out is a massive deciding factor. My dad (a hoys judge) always told us how important first impressions are. He said he decided on his first 6-8 ponies in the first pull in within the first 30 seconds of the ponies being in the ring. Often that 6-8 changed once he had seen them up close, but those were his short list. It wasn't unknown for him to bring a pony from much lower down the line if he had missed something either. I stewarded a lot for him and I learnt so much, things you don't see from the outside of the ring or as a competitor.

We never had any money for posh expensive ponies, but we were at hoys, ponies UK etc every year and won on more than one occasion. Turn out and ring craft are a massive part of showing. It's an art. You and your horse need to catch the judges eye and be a pleasure to watch (and ride).

I'm not saying the underhand judging doesn't go on. it does! Dad called it the brown envelope brigade!
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Ah this is good to hear, like I say I've been out of the ring for a fair few years and the above was what I would see a lot of, people seeing their own horses through rose-tinted glasses and feeling hard done by :P.

The level of attention and grooming that went into my bay with no white show horse who grew no hair, was still immense! Probably why I'm such a slob now, all the cleaning scarred me for life, highlight was just applied finishing touches when the Shires started chalking upwind, not sure we've ever moved so fast to try and get out of the way! Also the reason why I'm not fancying continuing to show the current grey and white, she's just going to continue to get whiter :eek:.
 
Fern007 said:
I really wouldn't to be a judge!! Someone my fb has posted her in her class at the Royal Norfolk saying her horse should have been placed higher, he went beautifully blah blah. Her friends have commented that she was by far the best in the class etc. No actually you were not the best, there were a fair few nicer horses and the overall picture of quite a few were a lot nicer!! But as we all know, we all take the best horse home!!
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I wonder if I've seen the same post, lovely horse that is much loved but to my view it was seriously overbent throughout.
The thing with showing is you pay your money to get someone's opinion. They don't have to agree with yours. I think there can be some dodgy moments and any measures to improve this from HOYS is good but I can't ever see it being totally removed. That's why I moved away from showing to dressage but that's not perfect either...
 
fetlock said:
In my BSPS days, there was one particular WHP judge who was obsessed with greys, big up to height greys, which was unfortunate when I had a chestnut, also on the small side, and she really didn't like him. Even if he was the only clear so she had no choice but to put him first, I always felt she did so with very gritted teeth. If it was grey and clear, it would be placed every time above my chestnut, very frustrating when one particular grey on the circuit had few redeeming features. We still showed under her but accepted if any greys went clear too, we'd always be placed behind them every time. There was also another judge who adored my little chestnut. If any shows clashed, it was the show where he was judging that we went to. Sometimes, if the same pro/horse is winning under the same judge, it's not necessarily always the back scratching or favouritism towards a producer some may perceive it as.

.
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But that in itself is poor judging. A good judge will have enough self awareness to know that they have a type that they may prefer if they were, say, going out to buy one, but that in the ring it is the best horse on the day that gets the top spot.

Fairness and courtesy are what is required. And a big dollop of integrity.
 
I remember showing at the Sunshine Tour one year in the coloureds classes, not high level and I wan't expecting a placing on my horse as we were just there for a day out; but the ride judge was a 5ft, very slight woman so unsurprisingly out of a class of approx 30, the top 10 were all 14.2hh and under.. He did much much better in the hunter class with a 6ft male rider, no more skilled but could just get his legs around my 17.2hh boy.
 
Manners are a judges excuse for the sake of having an excuse. I've had that one used on me a few times when there has been worse in the class.

For my sins I judge and am now on a panel. My view on manners inhand is that I don't mind a bit of spark, a touch of pizazz that makes you notice the pony - a bit of a jig jog (a few strides here or there not constant) a little leap side ways out of energetic excitement etc so long as the pony is not being dangerous, the Handler is in full control and walk and trot are shown well for 95% of the time as well as standing still both in the line up and in front of the judge. Basically I don't mind a bit of spice and enthusiasm but I will not tolerate badly mannered bruts of animals.

Ridden classes are a different kettle of fish. The animal must be true to each pace and stay in that pace until asked otherwise. They should be well schooled but looking up through the bridle - I would far rather see something a little above the vertical and moving forwards freely than something held back and stuffy. I don't want to see brain dead plods. I want to see horses enjoying themselves.
 
minesadouble said:
You definitely can do this. I have a couple of friends who are home produced, not 'names' and have qualified for HOYS so it's certainly possible.
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This is us ! Ours are literally in the back garden , and I went from an eventing/dressage background to showing native ponies sort of by accident , with absolutely no experience of either natives or showing !. I just watched and learned and we've had some top class success along the way . Plus almost all of ours had other careers alongside the showing - dressage , hunting , xc etc , so the showing wasn't the be all and end all . I find that the people who get the most bitter and disillusioned with showing are the ones who don't seem to do anything else .
 
Over the years I have stewarded for a fair few bsps judges, not one of them has placed an animal according to who the owner was. I've seen a few accosted outside the ring and in one very unpleasant private diving class, in the ring. I haven't always agreed with their placing, but that's the nature of showing. I have done a bit of unaffiliated judging and had competitors demand to know why their lame horse wasn't placed and be very upset when told why.
I've also shown the old appy and heard that we must have known the judge (not the case) when she placed well.
 
Rowreach said:
But that in itself is poor judging. A good judge will have enough self awareness to know that they have a type that they may prefer if they were, say, going out to buy one, but that in the ring it is the best horse on the day that gets the top spot.

Fairness and courtesy are what is required. And a big dollop of integrity.
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But its the best horse in the judges opinion.
 
dorsetladette said:
But its the best horse in the judges opinion.
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I split 2 Hunters recently on which head I would like to see over the stable door. Both were cracking examples of their weights, both were beautifully well ridden and shown to their best advantage, both had scars. And on the day I stood looking between them for 5 mins before finally making my mind up. Both had beautiful heads and expressions but at the end of the day I am not a fan of big white blazes. And that is where personal preference comes into it. The 2nd place rider was very understanding and gracious in defeat. They also went Reserve Champion over all of the other 1st places in the section because I really did love the pair of them. I could have sat on them both all day and had a thoroughly enjoyable time on them.

There will always be elements of judging that other people don't agree with but you are paying for someone else's opinion and interpretation of breed type. What one judge likes another may not.

There is a wide variety of Shetlands out and about now from the true old fashioned pit pony types to ones that are far too heavy, some lighter framed but very much performance ponies that could carry and pull weight to the new trend of fine legged, no width or depth things that look like mini dartmoors. What one judge would send to hoys another would put last.
 
i 'dabbled' with a bit of showing when i bred a coloured warmbred x, years ago, i was a complete novice. The people/other competitors very aloof , unfriendly (except 'Jethros' team who were brilliant!) so ended up completely disillusioned,
I was then advised to show my donkeys as it is a completely different atmosphere, what a shock, it was (generally) a friendly, helpful 'group' of people. Why the difference ?
 
Elf On A Shelf said:
I split 2 Hunters recently on which head I would like to see over the stable door. Both were cracking examples of their weights, both were beautifully well ridden and shown to their best advantage, both had scars. And on the day I stood looking between them for 5 mins before finally making my mind up. Both had beautiful heads and expressions but at the end of the day I am not a fan of big white blazes. And that is where personal preference comes into it. The 2nd place rider was very understanding and gracious in defeat. They also went Reserve Champion over all of the other 1st places in the section because I really did love the pair of them. I could have sat on them both all day and had a thoroughly enjoyable time on them.

There will always be elements of judging that other people don't agree with but you are paying for someone else's opinion and interpretation of breed type. What one judge likes another may not.

There is a wide variety of Shetlands out and about now from the true old fashioned pit pony types to ones that are far too heavy, some lighter framed but very much performance ponies that could carry and pull weight to the new trend of fine legged, no width or depth things that look like mini dartmoors. What one judge would send to hoys another would put last.
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Exactly. And then the hoys judge will have another opinion again.
 
dorsetladette said:
Exactly. And then the hoys judge will have another opinion again.
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But Elf is specifically saying that both horses were cracking examples of their type, and that she used her preference for less white on the head to split them. Not that she put the other one first just because it didn't have a blaze.
 
I'm not sure where viewing your own with rose tinted glasses and feeling hard done by comes into it - the judge/producer combos I've mentioned earlier were in classes I was watching. You don't need to be in the ring to see what goes on.

My biggest issue is placing horses which are obese, lame or do not meet breed standard. Possibly even worse than that - not being able to identify the right breed in m&m classes. How can you judge if you don't don't know what's in front of you?
 
Nudibranch said:
I'm not sure where viewing your own with rose tinted glasses and feeling hard done by comes into it - the judge/producer combos I've mentioned earlier were in classes I was watching. You don't need to be in the ring to see what goes on.

My biggest issue is placing horses which are obese, lame or do not meet breed standard. Possibly even worse than that - not being able to identify the right breed in m&m classes. How can you judge if you don't don't know what's in front of you?
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If a panel judge cannot identify a breed in a mixed M&M class it may be that the animal in question is not a good example of its breed.
I know a registered Section D that if I hadn't seen it's passport I would have sworn blind it didn't have an ounce of Welsh in it!
 
minesadouble said:
If a panel judge cannot identify a breed in a mixed M&M class it may be that the animal in question is not a good example of its breed.
I know a registered Section D that if I hadn't seen it's passport I would have sworn blind it didn't have an ounce of Welsh in it!
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I stewarded for a judge who thought the NF, nice pony but not very NF, was a Connie, it didn't look like a Connie, right up to the Championship, when the other judge said something. Who was I to point out? I see and hear all, and say nowt.
I entered the regional breed show, and our pony handled by my daughter came 3rd, the judge told my daughter it should have won. She was about thirteen, and I do not know if the judge was trying to make her feel better, but she came out very confused.
 
Elf On A Shelf said:
Manners are a judges excuse for the sake of having an excuse. I've had that one used on me a few times when there has been worse in the class.

For my sins I judge and am now on a panel. My view on manners inhand is that I don't mind a bit of spark, a touch of pizazz that makes you notice the pony - a bit of a jig jog (a few strides here or there not constant) a little leap side ways out of energetic excitement etc so long as the pony is not being dangerous, the Handler is in full control and walk and trot are shown well for 95% of the time as well as standing still both in the line up and in front of the judge. Basically I don't mind a bit of spice and enthusiasm but I will not tolerate badly mannered bruts of animals.

Ridden classes are a different kettle of fish. The animal must be true to each pace and stay in that pace until asked otherwise. They should be well schooled but looking up through the bridle - I would far rather see something a little above the vertical and moving forwards freely than something held back and stuffy. I don't want to see brain dead plods. I want to see horses enjoying themselves.
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A hypothetical question to you if you don’t mind? If there are two horses, one true to type, everything about it correct, apart from it’s behaviour, and another, has a conformation fault or isn’t true to type, but is beautifully behaved and does a lovely individual show, which do you choose?
 
minesadouble said:
If a panel judge cannot identify a breed in a mixed M&M class it may be that the animal in question is not a good example of its breed.
I know a registered Section D that if I hadn't seen it's passport I would have sworn blind it didn't have an ounce of Welsh in it!
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Oh, I completely agree, there are plenty of well loved but poor examples around.

However, equally, the judge may well still not be aware of breed colours etc, I've shown good grey Fells, a grey dartmoor and other 'outside the box' colours within breeds, done very well in breed classes and yet under some mixed judges been in the also rans.....
One told me that one of the Fell ponies was a very poor Highland. He had won several classes under different judges at the breed show only a fortnight before and was held up generally as a very good type.
Another said the Dartie didnt move extravagantly enough as Welsh ponies need to move better....
Plenty of other quite embarrassing (for a judge to say) comments too.

Most of the time judges would be wise to keep their thoughts firmly to themselves......

Having produced for nearly 30 years at the top, inc multiple visits to HOYS and Olympia (as well as backing, schooling, hunting, dealing, being a PC instructor who also had a child doing all PC stuff on various ponies and horses etc etc) I took myself off judging panels and stepped away from the rings completely.
I have no intention to return, tho once a year or so I toddle off to do a local one..... and come home intending never to go again!
 
dorsetladette said:
It's this all day long.

How you turn your pony out is a massive deciding factor. My dad (a hoys judge) always told us how important first impressions are. He said he decided on his first 6-8 ponies in the first pull in within the first 30 seconds of the ponies being in the ring. Often that 6-8 changed once he had seen them up close, but those were his short list. It wasn't unknown for him to bring a pony from much lower down the line if he had missed something either. I stewarded a lot for him and I learnt so much, things you don't see from the outside of the ring or as a competitor.

We never had any money for posh expensive ponies, but we were at hoys, ponies UK etc every year and won on more than one occasion. Turn out and ring craft are a massive part of showing. It's an art. You and your horse need to catch the judges eye and be a pleasure to watch (and ride).

I'm not saying the underhand judging doesn't go on. it does! Dad called it the brown envelope brigade!
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This is what my instructor tells me! She says if she’s judging the first moment she sees a horse she wants to get that “I want to ride that” feeling from how they are presented and how they are going
 
Seen it all over the years from judges who like one colour eg a line up of grey section a Welsh to a line up of bay newforest ponies. My highland was champion in a mixed breed county show class one week to be told the next it was a poor example of a Welsh B the next. Was told recently which pony was going to win the HOYS class as the male judge had been sleeping with one of the competitors the night before. (It didn't). So I guess some is experience and some is sour grapes. I must admit I enjoy showing watching and choosing winners I am rarely wrong which is surprising as I know no one or nothing about the politics. I guess the reason is that producers are paid to get it right before they go into the ring. My biggest hate is obesity and clear lameness not being sorted on the go round
 
nagblagger said:
i 'dabbled' with a bit of showing when i bred a coloured warmbred x, years ago, i was a complete novice. The people/other competitors very aloof , unfriendly (except 'Jethros' team who were brilliant!) so ended up completely disillusioned,
I was then advised to show my donkeys as it is a completely different atmosphere, what a shock, it was (generally) a friendly, helpful 'group' of people. Why the difference ?
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Donkeys do not sell for big money. Donkeys stay with their home for life in many cases and are pets first and show animals second.

The first show I took my donkeys to I was unable to do much due to stewarding at the goat section. I took my donkey to the showground and gave him to a recently met donkey person. When I had finished with the goats I found my donkey, who had already come second in the condition and turnout class without me.

This would never happen with a pony. 45 years ago no one would lend me a girth when I had forgotton mine at one show. A tradestand owner came to my rescue and lent me one. That was one class I was really pleased to win.
 
Nudibranch said:
Not my animal but I know of a Dales owner whose pony was misidentified as a Fell and criticised as such. It was wearing ribbons...there's really no excuse there.
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Not only were we highly placed in a massive class but that ' Best Dales " award is one of my most treasured rosettes ?
Brownie points if you can guess the breed ( Clue - it's NOT Dales ! ) .

IMG_20220702_115840_kindlephoto-2082390364.jpg
 
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honetpot said:
I stewarded for a judge who thought the NF, nice pony but not very NF, was a Connie, it didn't look like a Connie, right up to the Championship, when the other judge said something. Who was I to point out? I see and hear all, and say nowt.
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The Fuzzy Furry said:
Oh, I completely agree, there are plenty of well loved but poor examples around.

However, equally, the judge may well still not be aware of breed colours etc, I've shown good grey Fells, a grey dartmoor and other 'outside the box' colours within breeds, done very well in breed classes and yet under some mixed judges been in the also rans.....
!
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One of the best pieces of advice I was given , by an eminent judge , regarding identifying the breed of non typically coloured ponies , is to squint until you can't see the colour and then just look at the silhouette .
" And if you still can't tell " he added " It's a New Forest . "

( Apologies in advance to Foresty fans ) .
 
thefarsideofthefield said:
One of the best pieces of advice I was given , by an eminent judge , regarding identifying the breed of non typically coloured ponies , is to squint until you can't see the colour and then just look at the silhouette .
" And if you still can't tell " he added " It's a New Forest . "

( Apologies in advance to Foresty fans ) .
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I had a very old school judge who just about made history in the mid 80s.
I wasnt expecting to be highly placed as mine wasnt black, he was quite elderly but so very knowledgeable.
He put my animal 2nd in a huge breed class. Told me as he presented me with the rosette, that he was well known for not liking colours within the breed, but my pony was such a good example that he had thought to 'turn the photo negative to mono'.
A lovely way of putting it ?
 
windand rain said:
Seen it all over the years from judges who like one colour eg a line up of grey section a Welsh to a line up of bay newforest ponies. My highland was champion in a mixed breed county show class one week to be told the next it was a poor example of a Welsh B the next. Was told recently which pony was going to win the HOYS class as the male judge had been sleeping with one of the competitors the night before. (It didn't). So I guess some is experience and some is sour grapes. I must admit I enjoy showing watching and choosing winners I am rarely wrong which is surprising as I know no one or nothing about the politics. I guess the reason is that producers are paid to get it right before they go into the ring. My biggest hate is obesity and clear lameness not being sorted on the go round
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A highland as a section B is definitely a special one!
 
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