Hunting is in a spot of bother

milliepops

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what occurred to me when watching it on the news yesterday, was that this feels waaaay to informal an arrangement for something so fundamental to farming and rural life.
i don't want to give Defra any more power or red tape than the next person, but are these sort of isolated incidents in a normally-well run network of local services, or are they all going rogue? I don't know the answer to that, it's a genuine question. everyone speaks highly of our local hunt WRT their pts services, sensitive and quiet etc but what happens at the flesh house (if it's still called that) behind the scenes is not something anyone talks about. I haven't any idea whether the local knacker is any better, for example. is more regulation needed?
 

Chianti

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It just shows a lack of respect. Would people honestly not care if they saw a much loved horse being treated like that? Thats leaving aside the very serious health and safety risks and the risk to public health.
I think it indicates an attitude towards animals that is not the same as mine. I believe that any living being deserves to be treated with respect when it dies. Doesn't matter if it's a horse, cow, dog or badger. If I asked the hunt to put my pony to sleep and then I knew it had been treated that that I would be heart broken.
 

Sandstone1

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Wasn't somebody warbling on about how much the hunts think of the hounds. Well I don't buy it.

The casual way those dogs are shot and discarded stinks and quite literally too, I would imagine.

I've never been able to get my head around killing for fun but this was even worse, this was taking lives without thought.

Life is cheap, it seems.

I couldn't bring myself to watch the programme. My opinion is based on the video clips shared above.
The annoying thing is that not long ago I was told I was not a "animal lover" because if "trail hunting" is banned all those poor hounds would be shot. The hounds are much valued animals with generations of breeding, much loved by the huntsman and kennel staff.
So well loved and respected that they are shot in the head and thrown in a bin like rubbish!
So well thought of that they are so causally shot by the very staff that are supposed to care for them.
How can people that claim to care for animals treat them like this?

I can sort of accept that once dead it does not matter but people say that they use the hunt for a dignified end for their horses, yes they may be shot quickly and not know any more but would you really like to think of your "Much loved horse"being driven over by a quad bike or used as a seat for a workers coffee break? Such a dignified way to treat a body.
This is all aside from the very real risk to health by rotting flesh being left in open bins for birds and other animals to get to.
What was wrong with the hounds so causally shot in the head?
They looked pretty young and in good health to me?
Too many hounds? Stop breeding them.
How people can be happy for this to go on and yet then blame anti hunt people for the threat of hounds being put down when trail hunting is banned is quite honestly ridiculous and I hope hunters hang their heads in shame.
I know that is unlikely as they have no respect for the animals they abuse in the name of their "sport" Horses and hounds alike are just tools to be thrown away like rubbish when no longer of use.
Utterly disgusting.
 

scruffyponies

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They looked pretty young and in good health to me?
I don't know anything about the case you're referencing, but you know that hounds are culled for behavioural issues too, right? A young healthy hound which riots should be, and usually is shot before it can do any more harm. Anything else would be irresponsible.
 

Gallop_Away

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The annoying thing is that not long ago I was told I was not a "animal lover" because if "trail hunting" is banned all those poor hounds would be shot. The hounds are much valued animals with generations of breeding, much loved by the huntsman and kennel staff.
So well loved and respected that they are shot in the head and thrown in a bin like rubbish!
So well thought of that they are so causally shot by the very staff that are supposed to care for them.
How can people that claim to care for animals treat them like this?

I can sort of accept that once dead it does not matter but people say that they use the hunt for a dignified end for their horses, yes they may be shot quickly and not know any more but would you really like to think of your "Much loved horse"being driven over by a quad bike or used as a seat for a workers coffee break? Such a dignified way to treat a body.
This is all aside from the very real risk to health by rotting flesh being left in open bins for birds and other animals to get to.
What was wrong with the hounds so causally shot in the head?
They looked pretty young and in good health to me?
Too many hounds? Stop breeding them.
How people can be happy for this to go on and yet then blame anti hunt people for the threat of hounds being put down when trail hunting is banned is quite honestly ridiculous and I hope hunters hang their heads in shame.
I know that is unlikely as they have no respect for the animals they abuse in the name of their "sport" Horses and hounds alike are just tools to be thrown away like rubbish when no longer of use.
Utterly disgusting.
I clearly struck a nerve with you Sandstone1, but can you please do me a favour and stop misquoting me.
I did not say you are not an animal lover. I do not know you personally. What I in fact said is that I find it hypocritical when people who say they are animal lovers call for all forms of hunting to be banned, in the exact way I find those who say they love animals that call for racing to be banned. They do not wish to see animals die but they call for the very thing that will cause thousands of animals to be culled. I'm afraid I do find that hypocritical and I stand by that opinion.
I'm not getting drawn into another argument over this as you clearly aren't able to keep things civil in a debate and I do not think admin should need to step in again. Neither of us are ever going to see eye to eye on anything hunting related so I see very little to gain from engaging with you further.

With regards to the hounds, I think people need to keep in mind that these are working animals. They are not pets. There are far worst fates for any animal than a bullet and a quick death. Indeed it is a method many people chose for their horses. I don't see why it is "cruel" to shoot a hound but not a horse?
It is not the method many people chose for their pet dogs but again, hounds are not pets.
Hounds may need to be culled for a number of reasons. Some may show too much interest in chasing livestock, or may go as far as rioting and putting them down is the responsible thing to do.
Some may have a health issue that means they can no longer do their job, or they have become too old. When this happens every effort is made to find hounds suitable retirement homes, but sadly this is not always possible, sometimes due to the hound itself not being suited to retirement, or perhaps there aren't any suitable and knowledgeable homes available.
Needing to destroy hounds where appropriate is part of the reality of hunting, but it does not mean these animals are not cared for and loved.
I realise it may be difficult to understand if you do not work with these animals directly. It's something I have in the past struggled to get my head around. But it is not possible to watch our hunt master interact with his hounds, see how well they look, and how proudly he has paraded them in the previous hunt shows and not think that they are very much cared for.
I can't really say any more on the matter.
 
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Koweyka

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It’s a matter of time before the public also lose their lives because of errrrr trail laying across busy roads ….

And the Quorn hunt followed a trail through a primary school playground this week while the kids were out for
playtime ….maybe they just wanted to see the kids…

These four legged ginger pesky trails eh
 

paddy555

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way I find those who say they love animals that call for racing to be banned. They do not wish to see animals die but they call for the very thing that will cause thousands of animals to be culled.

With regards to the hounds, I think people need to keep in mind that these are working animals. They are not pets. There are far worst fates for any animal than a bullet and a quick death. .
if hunting was banned in it's entirety then there would be a certain number of hounds that had to be PTS with a bullet and a quick death. There are worse fates you say. I have no idea of the numbers but lets say 7500 for arguments sake that cannot be rehomed etc etc.

If hunting continued for say another 5 years then, taking into account illness, uselessness, wear and tear etc etc etc plus old age there would be well in excess of 7500 shot. Those would of course be unborn hounds who if hunting stopped would not need to be born..
So I don't see having to kill hounds is a reason as far more (unborn)ones will be killed in future years.

Same in fact with racehorses. I am not sure racehorses have a very good life after racing.
 

Koweyka

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if hunting was banned in it's entirety then there would be a certain number of hounds that had to be PTS with a bullet and a quick death. There are worse fates you say. I have no idea of the numbers but lets say 7500 for arguments sake that cannot be rehomed etc etc.

If hunting continued for say another 5 years then, taking into account illness, uselessness, wear and tear etc etc etc plus old age there would be well in excess of 7500 shot. Those would of course be unborn hounds who if hunting stopped would not need to be born..
So I don't see having to kill hounds is a reason as far more (unborn)ones will be killed in future years.

Same in fact with racehorses. I am not sure racehorses have a very good life after racing.
Plus its not like “The Avengers” where there will be one click of a finger and they will all be dead in an instant, steps could be taken now …. Far too many hounds are bred just to be shot, same with racehorses bred and sold for peanuts when they can’t run fast enough just to end up on dinner plates, both “Sports” need to get their houses in order.
 

Gallop_Away

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I completely agree that breeding could be reduced. Smaller packs are easier to manage out hunting ime.
Yes there are worst fates than a bullet but I do think it is a great shame for perfectly healthy young hounds who have no issues that would dictate otherwise to be destroyed. Just as I would be saddened to see hundreds of thousands of healthy thoroughbreds sent to slaughter. I consider myself an animal lover and I wouldn't want to see either of these things happen, no more than I would want to see a fox killed by hounds.
 

Dizzy socks

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I completely agree that breeding could be reduced. Smaller packs are easier to manage out hunting ime.
Yes there are worst fates than a bullet but I do think it is a great shame for perfectly healthy young hounds who have no issues that would dictate otherwise to be destroyed. Just as I would be saddened to see hundreds of thousands of healthy thoroughbreds sent to slaughter. I consider myself an animal lover and I wouldn't want to see either of these things happen, no more than I would want to see a fox killed by hounds.
Do you not think then that the only way to stop them being killed (whether in the manner they already are, or all at once if hunting is banned) is to stop breeding them entirely? I’m not entirely sure of your point, if I’m honest.
 

paddy555

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I completely agree that breeding could be reduced. Smaller packs are easier to manage out hunting ime.
Yes there are worst fates than a bullet but I do think it is a great shame for perfectly healthy young hounds who have no issues that would dictate otherwise to be destroyed. Just as I would be saddened to see hundreds of thousands of healthy thoroughbreds sent to slaughter. I consider myself an animal lover and I wouldn't want to see either of these things happen, no more than I would want to see a fox killed by hounds.
so what happens to TBs after racing? they all go on to lovely homes with wonderful living conditions? are some/any PTS or slaughtered.

. We breed TBs to do a job, job done and a bullet for some, possibly many.
how do you reconcile being an animal lover with putting young horses to sleep? Impossible to do so. Many PTS could have long healthy lives. They may not be rideable but then again horses were never put on this planet for the amusement of man. . They could live long lives in fields with company.

I do find racing and the wastage difficult to reconcile with being an animal lover.

As an animal lover how do you reconcile breeding anything, lets say hounds, that could be PTS for any number of reasons whereas in fact they could live long painfree lives just not hunting? I don't know what the natural lifespan of a hound is but probably around 13. How many live to that age? (obviously leaving aside those PTS in pain)
 

ycbm

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They may not be rideable but then again horses were never put on this planet for the amusement of man. .

I do understand this point Paddy, but those particular horses were put on the planet for the amusement of man. They would never have had any life in the first place I'd they had not been bred to race. And I think if the choice was possible in an egg and sperm, they would still choose a short life and a clean death over no life at all.

I'm not defending wastage rates in racing in any way, though.
.
 
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Tiddlypom

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There would be no compulsion to destroy healthy foxhounds if all hunting is banned. The breed would not be becoming a prohibited breed overnight.

The remaining hounds could be kept on in kennels to live out their natural lifespan. They could perfectly well be kept in the same routine as they always have been every summer - no hunting, but getting taken out daily en masse for hound exercise.

If the hunting community cared as deeply about their hounds as they insist they do, then this would be the way to do it without any need a mass cull.

A mass cull would be cheaper and less effort, of course.

Hunts cull a number of hounds every year anyway, for a variety of reasons.
 

Gallop_Away

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so what happens to TBs after racing? they all go on to lovely homes with wonderful living conditions? are some/any PTS or slaughtered.

. We breed TBs to do a job, job done and a bullet for some, possibly many.
how do you reconcile being an animal lover with putting young horses to sleep? Impossible to do so. Many PTS could have long healthy lives. They may not be rideable but then again horses were never put on this planet for the amusement of man. . They could live long lives in fields with company.

I do find racing and the wastage difficult to reconcile with being an animal lover.

As an animal lover how do you reconcile breeding anything, lets say hounds, that could be PTS for any number of reasons whereas in fact they could live long painfree lives just not hunting? I don't know what the natural lifespan of a hound is but probably around 13. How many live to that age? (obviously leaving aside those PTS in pain)
I'm not for one minute suggesting the racing industry is perfect. I think the amount of horses it churns out the otherside and also the age many thoroughbreds are run is very wrong. But while I think many improvements need to happen, that does not mean I think the whole thing should be banned.
I think thoroughbreds and hounds can still and do still deserve a place doing what they love to do, and we can still have the pleasure of watching them.
I think its better for them to live, even if it is a short life, as long as it is a happy healthy life, than not exist at all.
 

paddy555

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And I think if the choice was possible in an egg and sperm, they would still choose a short life and a clean death over no life at all.

I'm not defending wastage rates in racing in any way, though.


.
I find that impossible to understand. We have no way of knowing. If I personally had had a choice at that stage I would have preferred not be become a foetus. What if they chose to have a life but preferred to have a normal length one? saying they would still choose a short life simply seems to justify man's right to get rid of them when they have outlived their useful purpose.

I can't see wastage rates can be defended.
 

Gallop_Away

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There would be no compulsion to destroy healthy foxhounds if all hunting is banned. The breed would not be becoming a prohibited breed overnight.

The remaining hounds could be kept on in kennels to live out their natural lifespan. They could perfectly well be kept in the same routine as they always have been every summer - no hunting, but getting taken out daily en masse for hound exercise.

If the hunting community cared as deeply about their hounds as they insist they do, then this would be the way to do it without any need a mass cull.

A mass cull would be cheaper and less effort, of course.

Hunts cull a number of hounds every year anyway, for a variety of reasons.
I agree this is what *should* happen if hunting were to be banned, but how would you fund the care for these hounds? The money raised from caps, funrides, p2p, shows etc is what cares for these hounds.
If hunting is banned and hunts are disbanded then they can no longer self fund through hunts and other events.
I realise the stereotype that hunting folk are dripping in money but this is not always the case. Our hunt for example is made up of working class people.
I'm sure there will be some members who would still be happy to contribute but I think the reality is many hunts would struggle.
So I don't think its as simple as "the hunts are choosing to cull them", as if they can not care for them, and can not rehome them, what other choice do they have?
 

Fred66

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if hunting was banned in it's entirety then there would be a certain number of hounds that had to be PTS with a bullet and a quick death. There are worse fates you say. I have no idea of the numbers but lets say 7500 for arguments sake that cannot be rehomed etc etc.

If hunting continued for say another 5 years then, taking into account illness, uselessness, wear and tear etc etc etc plus old age there would be well in excess of 7500 shot. Those would of course be unborn hounds who if hunting stopped would not need to be born..
So I don't see having to kill hounds is a reason as far more (unborn)ones will be killed in future years.

Same in fact with racehorses. I am not sure racehorses have a very good life after racing.
On that basis let’s eliminate all life on earth as in the long run it will save lives.
 

Miss_Millie

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This is kind of what I struggle with with veganism (apologies for off topic), if everyone went vegan the same thing would happen to farm animals.
Well only 1% of the world's population is vegan, so it is extremely unlikely that overnight, all farm animals would have to be culled because suddenly everyone stopped eating animal products. It is more likely that there might be a gradual reduction in the amount of animals bred for meat etc, if the demand goes down. I think that many will be forced to eat less meat in the future, due to climate change. I am not vegan but I care very much about animal welfare and would be happy to see a huge reduction in meat consumption in the future. The intensive farming needed to meet the demand for animal products at the moment means that many animals are kept in horrific conditions and lead miserable lives.
 

Tiddlypom

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I agree this is what *should* happen if hunting were to be banned, but how would you fund the care for these hounds? The money raised from caps, funrides, p2p, shows etc is what cares for these hounds.
If hunting is banned and hunts are disbanded then they can no longer self fund through hunts and other events.
I realise the stereotype that hunting folk are dripping in money but this is not always the case. Our hunt for example is made up of working class people.
I'm sure there will be some members who would still be happy to contribute but I think the reality is many hunts would struggle.
So I don't think its as simple as "the hunts are choosing to cull them", as if they can not care for them, and can not rehome them, what other choice do they have?
But that's the point.

The hounds would not need to be culled as long as those who currently contribute to their upkeep were prepared to fund their retirement if hunting was ever fully banned. It would only need to be for a few years.

Don't try and shove the blame for any hypothetical mass hound culls on the antis. Blame the law breaking hunts and those hunting individuals who would have no further interest in what happens to the existing hounds if they get no sport from them.
 

Gallop_Away

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But that's the point.

The hounds would not need to be culled as long as those who currently contribute to their upkeep were prepared to fund their retirement if hunting was ever fully banned. It would only need to be for a few years.

Don't try and shove the blame for any hypothetical mass hound culls on the antis. Blame the law breaking hunts and those hunting individuals who would have no further interest in what happens to the existing hounds if they get no sport from them.
It's not always a case of whether hunt members are "prepared" to pay for the hounds retirement. Its whether they could actually afford to. If hunting is banned you are cutting off the very source of income that funds the care of the hounds.

I would blame both to be honest. The illegal hunting that is fuelling the fire and those who claim to be animal lovers but who call for a complete ban without thought for the ramifications.
 
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Clodagh

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I don't buy the 'can't afford it' argument. Hunt members would only need to continue to pay all or part of what they are already paying, albeit with no sport to show for it.

Not all hunts are wealthy, for sure, but a lot of them are.
If they continued to offer a flesh round that would help but you would need a full time person to look after them. And they need a house etc.
 
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