Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Fred66]

Could you tell me please, does your hunt have terrier men and/or bird of prey?

No and no.
Albeit we do have quads out most weeks some are used to assist in trail laying and some help with gates and some landowners prefer to follow on quad rather than horse, foot or car.

 

[skinnydipper]

No and no.
Albeit we do have quads out most weeks some are used to assist in trail laying and some help with gates and some landowners prefer to follow on quad rather than horse, foot or car.

Thank you.

 

[Tiddlypom]

At the risk of repeating previous points, the decision on whether hunting with hounds should have been made illegal should have been made on animal welfare grounds not on individual perception of morals on hunting with hounds. If this meant some hunting was allowed then it should have been licensed and rules agreed as to what was deemed acceptable, failure to adhere could have resulted in sanctions up to and including removal of a license.

However that was not what happened, broadly speaking hunting live prey with hounds was banned with the odd exception and trail hunting came into being. Some hunts were slow to convert and a very small minority still flout the law. However the vast majority do now trail hunt.
I would point out that the changes have not improved the welfare of the fox one iota, if anything it is worse and ultimately my outlook is that the welfare of the fox as a species is more important than an assumed outrage at the method being enjoyed or not.

As someone who hunted pre ban, I agree with most of this post.

The countryside in general and foxes in particular were managed better pre ban.

However, we will have to disagree about the part where you say that only a very small minority of hunts flout the law. The law might be an ass, but it is the law and it ought to be followed.

The governance of hunting has had a makeover, so in theory intransigent hunts will be called out and dealt with by the governing body. However, too many of the old guard are still in authority for anyone to take that seriously. I hope to be proved wrong on that.

 

[palo1]

But the act of killing itself isn't done for me, or with me in mind.

Playing the devil's advocate here, but watching a crocodile drag down a zebra - whether in person, or on a screen - is a passive act on my behalf. If I were to start giving crocodiles directions to the local zebra population, or paying some Crocodile Co. for the chance to come along, then I'd be actively participating. So, surely, it's incomparable?

Yes, it is not the same thing at all but I was just trying to convey the different elements in witnessing a difficult event; I wasn't intending to suggest that active participation was the same as passive observation. But if you are deliberately observing a natural death scene, complete with potentially difficult to view stuff, you are still making a choice about that. Because of the potentially inspiring/dramatic/informative content you will accept the sometimes awful aspects of death/nature. I am not going to speak for @Clodagh but I read the post to mean that elements of the legal autumn hunting experience (not necessarily all aspects of hunting) were magical. That was in full knowledge of the purpose of the event but not specifically the killing of young foxes. I think that was intended simply to be honest and to convey the multi layered aspect of that experience in total.

 

[Millionwords]

I am not going to speak for @Clodagh but I read the post to mean that elements of the legal autumn hunting experience (not necessarily all aspects of hunting) were magical. That was in full knowledge of the purpose of the event but not specifically the killing of young foxes. I think that was intended simply to be honest and to convey the multi layered aspect of that experience in total.

She did say Cubbing. Not "legal autumn hunting". We all know the difference.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The E Essex hunt should be shut down or have an enforced change of management if they cannot control their staff and remain within the law.

Completely agree with this. The MFHA should have suspended the East Essex as soon as the fox stabbing video came out, and made a thorough investigation of how the hunt is run before deciding whether it is fit to continue.

It is not too late for the new governing body to act on that.

The fox stabbing happened within a very prominent local hunting family. Any and all ties of the hunt (or indeed any other hunt) with the O'Sheas must be permanently severed, there is no coming back from a crime like that being passed down the generations.

 

[palo1]

Rather than answering the point constructively? So untrue.

I have argued all the arguments worth arguing, (as a person who also fox hunted in the past, then drag hunted for many years), over and over and over on this and many other threads over many, many years.
.

At the risk of repeating previous points, the decision on whether hunting with hounds should have been made illegal should have been made on animal welfare grounds not on individual perception of morals on hunting with hounds. If this meant some hunting was allowed then it should have been licensed and rules agreed as to what was deemed acceptable, failure to adhere could have resulted in sanctions up to and including removal of a license.

However that was not what happened, broadly speaking hunting live prey with hounds was banned with the odd exception and trail hunting came into being. Some hunts were slow to convert and a very small minority still flout the law. However the vast majority do now trail hunt.
I would point out that the changes have not improved the welfare of the fox one iota, if anything it is worse and ultimately my outlook is that the welfare of the fox as a species is more important than an assumed outrage at the method being enjoyed or not.

This, many times over. It is very widely acknowledged that the Hunting Act was not about animal welfare and thus as any kind of movement toward improved fox welfare it was utterly misbegotten. As it had to be pushed through Parliament without the standard parliamentary procedure it was recognised that there was not even a safe consensus on the issue. The fact that we are where we are now is not remotely surprising and foxes have simply not benefitted from the act. Anti hunters feel they have the high moral ground but pro hunters, without appalling behaviour from some hunts, feel the same because of the dire nature of getting the act in place and the lack of evidence to persuade hunters themselves that this was necessary from a welfare point of view.

 

[palo1]

She did say Cubbing. Not "legal autumn hunting". We all know the difference.

I think the reference was actually to cubbing and not Autumn Hunting.

 

[palo1]

Completely agree with this. The MFHA should have suspended the East Essex as soon as the fox stabbing video came out, and made a thorough investigation of how the hunt is run before deciding whether it is fit to continue.

It is not too late for the new governing body to act on that.

The fox stabbing happened within a very prominent local hunting family. Any and all ties of the hunt (or indeed any other hunt) with the O'Sheas must be permanently severed, there is no coming back from a crime like that being passed down the generations.

Yes, I completely agree with you on this.

 

[palo1]

To describe cubbing as magical is beyond belief, You do realise that young fox cubs are allowed no means of escape and are killed by young hounds? literally pulled apart in the name of sport?

@Sandstone and @Koweyka, what is the reason for your outrage at something that was legal and accepted at the time? I understand your ethical standpoint but it has very little impact or meaning to say that something is 'revolting' - that is an entirely subjective and personal opinion. My opinion of a whole variety of things has as much impact - zilch!! I think various methods of animal slaughter are pretty revolting, as are puppy farms and many other things but I wonder why you think that using that expression would add to a discussion other than to add heat and emotion?

 

[Clodagh]

As Crunchieboi says, you can’t explain what makes things interesting for you. A football game would be my idea of hell but to him is magical.
I no longer hunt but loved hound work.
The D&S beating that stag was as abhorrent as P O’S stabbing the fox.

 

[Clodagh]

That footage of the DSSH does not surprise me, having seen them out & about many times.


I was in the ring next to the hound show at Dunster, at the Fell pony show.

Oh I saw some fells, they were gorgeous. There was a rather keen stallion being shown in hand ?

 

[Koweyka]

@Sandstone and @Koweyka, what is the reason for your outrage at something that was legal and accepted at the time? I understand your ethical standpoint but it has very little impact or meaning to say that something is 'revolting' - that is an entirely subjective and personal opinion. My opinion of a whole variety of things has as much impact - zilch!! I think various methods of animal slaughter are pretty revolting, as are puppy farms and many other things but I wonder why you think that using that expression would add to a discussion other than to add heat and emotion?

Are you serious. Asking why we are outraged at the deliberate killing of fox cubs and the active participants of this disgusting practice finding it magical. I don’t give two hoots if it was back in the day, its about as sick a pass time as it can get.

It still happens now. It will be starting again within the next few weeks. I have seen it, I have seen cubs killed and this is very recently.

If I told a crowd of people who had no ideas about hunting, that people go out on horses just as it’s getting light and surround a small wood that has been identified as having a fox family living in it, either naturally or by means of an Artificial Earth and these people on horses surround the wood and the hounds are sent in, then the people on the outside of the wood slap their boots or saddles with their whip while making a Brrrrrring sound which unsettles the foxes, the foxes instinct is to run and hide but they are prevented from doing that by the riders surrounding the wood, the foxes are scared they turn back and are met by a pack of hounds and they are ripped to pieces, what do you think people would think ? Would they say it’s magical or would they say it was revolting and cruel ? I know from experience in outreach what people say and you are in a minuscule minority of thinking it’s acceptable practice back then or now.

 

[ycbm]

@Sandstone and @Koweyka, what is the reason for your outrage at something that was legal and accepted at the time?

This question illustrates the depth of divide between those who would support a legal return to fox hunting and those who wouldn't.

If you can't see any it would have disgusted and outraged me to be told to slap my boot with my whip and talk in a loud voice to turn fox cubs back into the jaws of young hounds which have been put into a covert to learn to kill, then there is, (as I have understood for some time now), no point whatsoever in continuing to discuss these issues.

Just because something is legal does not mean it is immune from outrage and disgust.
.

 

[Clodagh]

…

 

[palo1]

Are you serious. Asking why we are outraged at the deliberate killing of fox cubs and the active participants of this disgusting practice finding it magical. I don’t give two hoots if it was back in the day, its about as sick a pass time as it can get.

It still happens now. It will be starting again within the next few weeks. I have seen it, I have seen cubs killed and this is very recently.

If I told a crowd of people who had no ideas about hunting, that people go out on horses just as it’s getting light and surround a small wood that has been identified as having a fox family living in it, either naturally or by means of an Artificial Earth and these people on horses surround the wood and the hounds are sent in, then the people on the outside of the wood slap their boots or saddles with their whip while making a Brrrrrring sound which unsettles the foxes, the foxes instinct is to run and hide but they are prevented from doing that by the riders surrounding the wood, the foxes are scared they turn back and are met by a pack of hounds and they are ripped to pieces, what do you think people would think ? Would they say it’s magical or would they say it was revolting and cruel ? I know from experience in outreach what people say and you are in a minuscule minority of thinking it’s acceptable practice back then or now.

I am really not trying to aggravate you but fox cubs were killed in that way as part of a practice of vermin control. It was no different to sending terriers in to a rat's nest/den where the terrier handlers stand around an area full of rats and try to prevent the rats from getting away from the dogs. There is much noise and shouting in that practice too. I know we will never find accord on this subject but what I have described with rats is considered legal and humane and few people would prefer to see rats poisoned or die in several other vile ways than at the teeth of terriers bred for the job. Some people really enjoy ratting with dogs but I totally understand that for you, killing in this way, even if considered swift and humane by the law and many people, would be cruel and revolting. That is an opinion that I am glad you have the freedom to hold but your revulsion is subjective.

 

[ycbm]

There is a world of difference between killing rats with a terrier and chasing a fox for miles for the fun of a group of horse riders and foot followers.

 

[Koweyka]

I am really not trying to aggravate you but fox cubs were killed in that way as part of a practice of vermin control. It was no different to sending terriers in to a rat's nest/den where the terrier handlers stand around an area full of rats and try to prevent the rats from getting away from the dogs. There is much noise and shouting in that practice too. I know we will never find accord on this subject but what I have described with rats is considered legal and humane and few people would prefer to see rats poisoned or die in several other vile ways than at the teeth of terriers bred for the job. Some people really enjoy ratting with dogs but I totally understand that for you, killing in this way, even if considered swift and humane by the law and many people, would be cruel and revolting. That is an opinion that I am glad you have the freedom to hold but your revulsion is subjective.

Foxes never have been classed as vermin, the only control was the sickos partaking in the killing of defenceless young animals and having no chance of escape and the participants controlled whether those cubs lived or died.

I can tell you something else a hound killing a fox is as far from humane as you can get, the animal is terrified and does not die instantly.

 

[Koweyka]

This thread has been wonderful in showing just how vile hunting is and some posters have done more damage in promoting hunting in a good light than most anti’s could dream of.

 

[ycbm]

What some see as 'whataboutery' I see as the calling out of double standards.

I don't see any comparison between eating British farmed meat and chasing a fox for miles across country for the enjoyment of a group of horse riders and foot followers. The Burns Report said shooting was of equal humanity to hunting with hounds (though it is questionable whether he included cubbing in that). The addition of horseback and foot followers is superfluous.

And way past its time.
.

 

[Mrs_P]

I don't see any comparison between eating British farmed meat and chasing a fox for miles across country for the enjoyment of a group of horse riders and foot followers. The Burns Report said shooting was of equal humanity to hunting with hounds (though it is questionable whether he included cubbing in that). The addition of horseback and foot followers is superfluous.

And way past its time.
.

I thought you had said everything you had to say on the matter?

I do find it interesting the outrage shown at the killing of fox cubs and yet no thought is given to the lamb on your (hypothetical "you" by the way) plate that has been killed for your personal enjoyment. Either way you are gaining pleasure through the death of an animal no?

I find it an interesting discussion but no doubt someone will begin shouting "whataboutery" very soon which is disappointing.

 

[Fred66]

There is a world of difference between killing rats with a terrier and chasing a fox for miles for the fun of a group of horse riders and foot followers.

I think you will find it was the act of surrounding a cover during cubbing that was being compared to ratting.

The following a scent for miles by hounds gave the fox a far better chance of escape unharmed than alternate methods.

Animal welfare/cruelty is not related to enjoyment. To me it is around ensuring that control of the fox numbers is done in a way that is as “uncruel” as it can be. As reports showed that hunting foxes with hounds was no more cruel and in many instances less cruel than other methods then I would support it as a method on that basis.
If despite this individuals believe that it is wrong to “enjoy” the method then that is their choice and for their conscience, however equally if it is deemed not to be more cruel than other methods then you have no right to impose your choice on others.

However as it is now illegal and therefore fairly academic.

 

[Mrs_P]

Just to add..... as I previously said, I do not support illegal hunting, nor have I hunted pre-ban. I attend drag hunts with a local pack of bloodhounds and have also been out with two local legit trail packs and have not witnessed any behaviour from either that would make me believe otherwise.

I do not condone illegal hunting, nor do I particularly wish to see the ban lifted.

I am simply trying to add a wider discussion to the table. Food for thought pardon the pun.

 

[Fred66]

Foxes never have been classed as vermin, the only control was the sickos partaking in the killing of defenceless young animals and having no chance of escape and the participants controlled whether those cubs lived or died.

I can tell you something else a hound killing a fox is as far from humane as you can get, the animal is terrified and does not die instantly.

This is your subjective opinion and is no way born out by independently commissioned reports.
You are obviously entitled to hold this opinion but please don’t try and dress it up as facts

 

[Koweyka]

I think you will find it was the act of surrounding a cover during cubbing that was being compared to ratting.

The following a scent for miles by hounds gave the fox a far better chance of escape unharmed than alternate methods.

Animal welfare/cruelty is not related to enjoyment. To me it is around ensuring that control of the fox numbers is done in a way that is as “uncruel” as it can be. As reports showed that hunting foxes with hounds was no more cruel and in many instances less cruel than other methods then I would support it as a method on that basis.
If despite this individuals believe that it is wrong to “enjoy” the method then that is their choice and for their conscience, however equally if it is deemed not to be more cruel than other methods then you have no right to impose your choice on others.

However as it is now illegal and therefore fairly academic.

Its still cruel whichever way you want to dress it up.

 

[Fred66]

Its still cruel whichever way you want to dress it up.

Actually it’s not, as reports have shown. It might well be distasteful depending upon your viewpoint and I can totally understand that some will feel that way, but the evidence doesn’t back up your assertion of cruelty

 

[Koweyka]

This is your subjective opinion and is no way born out by independently commissioned reports.
You are obviously entitled to hold this opinion but please don’t try and dress it up as facts

How many foxes have you seen die and how many bodies have you retrieved.

 

[palo1]

Foxes never have been classed as vermin, the only control was the sickos partaking in the killing of defenceless young animals and having no chance of escape and the participants controlled whether those cubs lived or died.

I can tell you something else a hound killing a fox is as far from humane as you can get, the animal is terrified and does not die instantly.

Foxes are classed as pests which is simply a different word for vermin. They are in the same classification according to the Govt as moles and mink. Traditional fox hunting certainly saw foxes - adults and cubs able to escape from and evade hounds; you know that is the truth.

 

[Koweyka]

This fox suffered, it was ragged between two hounds before being disembowelled, it didn’t die instantly. Look at his eyes and tell me he didn’t suffer.

 

[Koweyka]

Foxes are classed as pests which is simply a different word for vermin. They are in the same classification according to the Govt as moles and mink. Traditional fox hunting certainly saw foxes - adults and cubs able to escape from and evade hounds; you know that is the truth.

So some evade and some don’t so that makes it ok ?