Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Koweyka]

Lake District National Park will be keeping the ban on hunting on it’s land.

https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/2051...f3Cmww59GEw44Wsr97v3oOsRt1NLi0o9S14&fs=e&s=cl

 

[sakura]

It's funny, when I joined this discussion, I was really only arguing why, ethically, I hate hunting. I had no intention of sharing my opinion on anything else, but now, I have a pretty poor opinion of the hunting community itself. The entitled, elitist, "I'm more country than you" attitude is exactly what will end hunting. You can blame sabs as much as you like (and I know you will), but it'll be the hunting communities own fault - as the ban was itself. Not people hating the rich because they're rich, but people hating animals being chased and killed by a large group of people enjoying the thrill. Terrible attitude for a terrible hobby.

Anyway, I really am leaving this discussion now - feel free to insult me in the quote replies again. I won't reply because it just isn't worth it - I only am now cos I wanted to agree with others when they said that this thread itself has worsened hunting even more in my mind.

I'm going to take a minute to remember animals like Minnie the cat, brutally killed by out of control hounds trespassing on land they had no permission or right to be on. Argue pedantics all you like, it won't change the death of hunting. You should probably look for a new hobby.

Have a good day.

 

[Koweyka]

The fox stabber Paul O‘Shea from the East Essex Hunt has given an 18 week sentence, suspended for 12 months, community service and banned from owning a dog for five years. It’s not enough he should have had a custodial sentence, this isn’t enough of a deterrent for hunts to stop abusing foxes and their cubs, if they aren’t feeding fox cubs to hounds they are stabbing them with pitch forks.

 

[Clodagh]

That’s absolutely appalling. So much for the tougher animal cruelty laws.
I’m disgusted.

 

[Koweyka]

That’s absolutely appalling. So much for the tougher animal cruelty laws.
I’m disgusted.

Apparently because he has a mortgage and a family it was thought he could be rehabilitated…. It is no deterrent.

 

[Clodagh]

Apparently because he has a mortgage and a family it was thought he could be rehabilitated…. It is no deterrent.

What earthly difference does it make?

 

[Fred66]

The fox stabber Paul O‘Shea from the East Essex Hunt has given an 18 week sentence, suspended for 12 months, community service and banned from owning a dog for five years. It’s not enough he should have had a custodial sentence, this isn’t enough of a deterrent for hunts to stop abusing foxes and their cubs, if they aren’t feeding fox cubs to hounds they are stabbing them with pitch forks.

Totally agree that the sentence is too lenient and that stronger deterrents to animal cruelty are required.

However would have to disagree regarding the rest of your statement as it is totally unrelated to hunting.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Far too lenient a sentence .

A horrific act in itself, and he involved the juvenile.

Would there not be safe guarding issues re the juvenile being permitted to partake in such activities?

Can Paul O'Shea be rehabilated? No, of course not. He is evil personified, he might not do it again but only because he might get caught, not because what he did was utterly cruel and wrong.

 

[Koweyka]

Totally agree that the sentence is too lenient and that stronger deterrents to animal cruelty are required.

However would have to disagree regarding the rest of your statement as it is totally unrelated to hunting.

Which part ?

 

[Koweyka]

Far too lenient a sentence .

A horrific act in itself, and he involved the juvenile.

Would there not be safe guarding issues re the juvenile being permitted to partake in such activities?

Can Paul O'Shea be rehabilated? No, of course not. He is evil personified, he might not do it again but only because he might get caught, not because what he did was utterly cruel and wrong.

Exactly this, it’s only when animal abusers get caught do they pretend to show remorse, if the Sabs hadn’t caught that footage on camera would they have carried on attracting foxes in the A/E and torturing them, of course he would.

 

[Sandstone1]

If it were up to me he would be feeling the prongs of a pitchfork in a delicate part of his anatomy. He should have gone to jail.

 

[Fred66]

… for hunts to stop abusing foxes and their cubs, if they aren’t feeding fox cubs to hounds they are stabbing them with pitch forks.

Which part ?

The part above.
He should have been sentenced to longer and his sentence should have been sufficient to hopefully act as a deterrent to anyone thinking that it is acceptable to treat any animal in this way.
I am sure that the hunting community is equally appalled at his behavior, even though his actions were those of a private individual who was not acting as part of the hunt. By his personal association with a hunt it allows people to sling more mud our way.

 

[palo1]

That is a dire and utterly inadequate sentence Paul O Shea's behaviour was/is totally sickening and there is no way that sentence seems proportionate. Everyone I know that has discussed this is shocked and disappointed; it was an act of outright and appalling cruelty. Vile man.

 

[Tiddlypom]

A reminder of just how entwined the convicted fox stabber Paul O'Shea and his family is with the East Essex Hunt. He, his wife and daughter all ride with the hunt, and his son is, like him, a countryman for the hunt. His wife was, at the time of the report, a joint master. His father was huntsman with the same pack for 36 years, and was described as a 'legend'.

All courtesy of the gushing two page report on the East Essex Hunt in Horse and Hound, which was published on 16 Dec 2021. This was after the fox stabbing incident which occurred on 4 Dec 2021, but before the covert CCTV footage of the incident came to light.

The full account is deliberately blurred out, but is readily viewable if you access the H&H 16 December 2021 edition.

 

[skinnydipper]

Why would they need an eagle owl for trail hunting?

 

[Clodagh]

Why would they need an eagle owl for trail hunting?

Bizarrely it’s legal to kill a fox with an eagle owl. I think I’d rather be killed by a pack of hounds on the whole.

 

[stangs]

I think I’d rather be killed by a pack of hounds on the whole.

Why?

 

[ycbm]

Why would they need an eagle owl for trail hunting?

They are allowed to use a pack of hounds to flush a fox towards a bird of prey. As long as they have a bird of prey out with them it's impossible to prosecute for illegal hunting. They don't even need to make any pretence of trail hunting, they are openly hunting fox.
.

 

[ycbm]

Why?

I would imagine it's a much quicker death, I'd make the same choice as Clodagh. No worries, though, the owl is only there for a smokescreen show.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Mark Hankinson mentions using a bird of prey in the infamous webinars. This is the transcript of what he had to say on the matter.

Bird of prey: the law states you can use a pack of dogs to flush a wild mammal to be hunted by a bird of prey. Now, that’s a terribly good wheeze for holding up, and I think that everyone during autumn hunting ought to be considering that. However, it lacks viability if you’re having a 5 mile hunt. So really at that stage once the quarry is gone you very much need your trail laying exemption because a bird of prey one starts to... [inaudible].

He is describing how the use of a bird of prey can be used as a 'terribly good wheeze' to camouflage 'holding up' in Autumn hunting. Holding up is the post Hunting Act completely illegal practice of putting hounds into a covert and getting the mounted field to surround the covert. The field are asked to make a lot of noise eg by slapping their crops against their boots to frighten any foxes back who try to escape back into the covert, to be killed by hounds.

This is to teach the young hounds their job. Holding up makes for a slaughter fest so that the new entry of hounds get easy kills and get the taste for foxes.

More smokescreens.

Mark Hankinson might have won his appeal, but the webinars lay bare just what tips and tricks that illegal fox hunts are using to continue to fox hunt.

 

[Koweyka]

One of the worst things I witnessed was a hunt surrounding a copse, we had to go across a river to get close to them so we were a bit slow to get to them, we could hear the saddle slapping, the field surrounding the copse, the hounds baying, we saw one young fox tried to make a break for it, a man on his horse rode at the fox screaming “aye aye aye aye” the fox was turned back into the hounds, we found three distinct blood pools and an artificial earth with chicken carcasses near to one entrance, this was only a few years ago.

This will be happening all over the country in the next few weeks.

 

[ycbm]

I have done it, once. I had no idea what I had agreed to when I went, it was cutely called "Cubbing". I am still angry with myself 35 years later that I didn't leave immediately and tell the friends I went with what I thought of them.

 

[Koweyka]

I have done it, once. I had no idea what I had agreed to when I went, it was cutely called "Cubbing". I am still angry with myself 35 years later that I didn't leave immediately and tell the friends I went with what I thought of them.

I am glad you never went again, it’s truly the most disgusting practice. They changed “cubbing” to Autumn Hunting….it doesn’t fool anyone though.

 

[palo1]

Holding up didn't happen in every country; in hill country it was never really a practical strategy - I saw it happen when I was a child in some vale country but never since even when hunting with a number of different packs in different kinds of country.

 

[ycbm]

Holding up didn't happen in every country; in hill country it was never really a practical strategy - I saw it happen when I was a child in some vale country but never since even when hunting with a number of different packs in different kinds of country.

So? It doesn't happen where the country doesn't suit. That isn't saying a lot really. Do the hunts who don't do it makes the slightest attempt to stop the others? Do they even say one word suggesting that it's an unacceptable thing to do?

It's absolutely vile. When I first wrote about it on the forum a sheep farmer who was happy to have his land fox hunted and who himself was a huge enthusiast of shooting live birds out of the sky accused me of lying about it. That's how bad it is of you are far enough away from the trees to see the wood.
.

 

[palo1]

So? It doesn't happen where the country doesn't suit. That isn't saying a lot really. Do the hunts who don't do it makes the slightest attempt to stop the others? Do they even say one word suggesting that it's an unacceptable thing to do?

It's absolutely vile. When I first wrote about it on the forum a sheep farmer who was happy to have his land fox hunted and who himself was a huge enthusiast of shooting live birds out of the sky accused me of lying about it. That's how bad it is of you are far enough away from the trees to see the wood.
.

I am not sure I understand the whole post @ycbm but as I have said many times before, whilst the MFHA may have the title of overseeing hunting, many, many hunts are distant in several ways from that organisation; either through choice because of their feelings about the MFHA or because the organisation isn't particularly relevant to their activities or needs. Of course hunts condemn poor practice and discuss that amongst themselves but as long as the MFHA fail to provide genuine governance and discipline over hunting matters then the general impression will be that no one is calling it out. There is considerable disquiet amongst hunting people about appalling behaviour. Not all hunting practices apply to all hunts and some of the worst abuses are things that may have been common with a few hunts BITD but for some hunts they have NEVER happened even when legal; feeding foxes, creating artificical earths, holding up etc.

The E Essex hunt should be shut down or have an enforced change of management if they cannot control their staff and remain within the law.

 

[palo1]

This is not as a response to vile Paul O'Shea's conviction but because this thread concerns the state of hunting; 5 hunt saboteurs have been convicted for assault and '...using threatening, abusive and insulting words and behaviour to cause harassment, alarm and distress.'. There were 3 victims on this occasion. stamfordmercury.co.uk/news/five-hunt-saboteurs-found-guilty-of-threatening-behaviour-9267060/?fbclid=IwAR25Ek68b1jF6l1qD9E_lpYLecEsrqRwUWbDn9MU5rL4pXi5wtcbqU1xSaw.


Oakham as a place has form for this issue as earlier this year another saboteur was convicted of criminal damage: https://www.stamfordmercury.co.uk/news/hunt-saboteur-targeted-car-with-young-children-in-9242510/.

I noticed too that the former huntsman Chris Mardles was in court for GBH (in 2020) for riding over, and severely injuring a hunt saboteur. The victim, Mel Broughton is a long time animal rights activist, convicted arsonist and bomb maker. (relating to incidents in 2010). He was jailed for 10 years in 2010.

 

[Millionwords]

This is not as a response to vile Paul O'Shea's conviction but because this thread concerns the state of hunting; 5 hunt saboteurs have been convicted for assault and '...using threatening, abusive and insulting words and behaviour to cause harassment, alarm and distress.'. There were 3 victims on this occasion. stamfordmercury.co.uk/news/five-hunt-saboteurs-found-guilty-of-threatening-behaviour-9267060/?fbclid=IwAR25Ek68b1jF6l1qD9E_lpYLecEsrqRwUWbDn9MU5rL4pXi5wtcbqU1xSaw. Oakham as a place has form for this issue as earlier this year another saboteur was convicted of criminal damage: https://www.stamfordmercury.co.uk/news/hunt-saboteur-targeted-car-with-young-children-in-9242510/.

I noticed too that the former huntsman Chris Mardles was in court for GBH (in 2020) for riding over, and severely injuring a hunt saboteur. The victim, Mel Broughton is a long time animal rights activist, convicted arsonist and bomb maker. (relating to incidents in 2010). He was jailed for 10 years in 2010.

Okay? Noone suggests this is okay....it just seems like deflection from the cubbing topic.

"OOOh but what about these incidents with sabs?" isn't really a valid defence to wrong doing or very useful.

x riding over y being okay because "y was worse than x" seems a bizzare suggestion.

 

[Koweyka]

kOkay? Noone suggests this is okay....it just seems like deflection from the cubbing topic.

"OOOh but what about these incidents with

I agree, there are so many huntsman/whips/terrier men and landowners up on charges at the moment but I can’t be bothered with a tit for tat.

 

[palo1]

kOkay? Noone suggests this is okay....it just seems like deflection from the cubbing topic.

"OOOh but what about these incidents with

I never suggested that this was a response to anything; simply reporting troubles within hunting. I wasn't intending to deflect from the post about either PO'S or cubbing practices at all. None of it is ok! It's not in any way OK to stab a fox with a pitchfork, assault hunt supporters, run over hunt saboteurs or plan terrorist attacks (Mel Broughton). None of it is ok.