Hunting is in a spot of bother

[ycbm]

I never really understand the objections to shooting… unless you are vegan.. it’s taking an animal quickly out of its own environment with out the stress associated with being transported to kill… the ultimate free range.

The death isn't quick. The birds are scared into flight, shot in flight, fall to the ground alive and fetched by a dog, taken to a human who then wrings the neck. If you did that to any other animal, you'd be prosecuted.

It's also my understanding that many shot birds are dumped, not eaten, (though i stand to be corrected if someone can give actual numbers) , in which case this killing is done entirely for fun.
.

 

[Clodagh]

The death isn't quick. The birds are scared into flight, shot in flight, fall to the ground alive and fetched by a dog, taken to a human who then wrings the neck. If you did that to any other animal, you'd be prosecuted.

It's also my understanding that many shot birds are dumped, not eaten, (though i stand to be corrected if someone can give actual numbers) , in which case this killing is done entirely for fun.
.

Not many fall to the ground alive, and it’s never the intention.

 

[Clodagh]

I think the objections to shooting are mainly to big bag driven shoots. SFAIA indivials shooting for the pot are only rarely villified.

 

[ycbm]

Not many fall to the ground alive, and it’s never the intention.

I have watched them shooting commercial moors, and I see lots falling to the ground alive. It's unavoidable if you are trying to kill a flying bird while keeping the flesh edible.
.

 

[blitznbobs]

I have watched them shooting commercial moors, and I see lots falling to the ground alive. It's unavoidable if you are trying to kill a flying bird while keeping the flesh edible.
.

I’ve been to quite a few shoots and have the opposite experience I can think of only a couple of times when something hit the ground alive. And the intention of the shooter is to kill the bird outright… winging a bird is seen as a very bad thing … the flesh is edible… its why you end up picking shot out of your meal.

 

[ycbm]

Maybe the shoots I've seen, on a big commercial shoot, paying an eye watering amount to be there, are inept?
.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Shooting also generally involves the release of staggering numbers of non-native birds into the countryside at the expense of native wildlife in the case of pheasant shooting.

Most of the birds don't actually make it into the human foodchain with many of them dying on roads where I am. Destructive and wasteful.

Dont get me started on the driven grouse shoots. Plenty of them where I am, and nothing good to say about them.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Big commercial shoots with inept guns paying huge sums of dosh to aim vaguely at intellectually challenged fat mass produced non native birds which have to be frightened into the air by paid plebs are a very different prospect to individuals shooting for the pot.

IMHO commercial shooting is more morally dubious than fox hunting, and brings precious few benefits to the countryside, apart from lining the pockets of a few.

Is the widely touted figure of 50 million game birds raised annually to be shot at for fun genuine, anyone know?

 

[palo1]

Shooting also generally involves the release of staggering numbers of non-native birds into the countryside at the expense of native wildlife in the case of pheasant shooting.

Most of the birds don't actually make it into the human foodchain with many of them dying on roads where I am. Destructive and wasteful.

Dont get me started on the driven grouse shoots. Plenty of them where I am, and nothing good to say about them.

I think there are issues with driven grouse but grouse are a native bird and whilst I am sure you will contest this, many, many times over the last few years it has been proven that traditional keepering on the moors for grouse shooting, is doing a 'better' job (in spite of some very sickening killing of rare raptors) than the charities that try to take them on and please everyone. There is plenty of evidence for this though I know it will be dismissed and I will be told I know nothing. I am not a regular shot and do not participate in organised shooting but I am passionately interested in the health and restoration of moorland and it is something that directly concerns our own hill though we don't have shooting there.

 

[Clodagh]

Big commercial shoots with inept guns paying huge sums of dosh to aim vaguely at intellectually challenged fat mass produced non native birds which have to be frightened into the air by paid plebs are a very different prospect to individuals shooting for the pot.

IMHO commercial shooting is more morally dubious than fox hunting, and brings precious few benefits to the countryside, apart from lining the pockets of a few.

Is the widely touted figure of 50 million game birds raised annually to be shot at for fun genuine, anyone know?

I’ve no idea of the numbers. But an awful lot of people in the countryside get their money from shooting, not only the shoot owners. I’m working today and there will be maybe 40 people there getting paid. And it’s all at least minimum wage now. Let alone the hotel where the guns stayed last night and all their staff.

 

[Clodagh]

The killing of raptors is absolutely incredibly rare now, although much publicised. Anyone who is found guilty is expelled from all shooting organisations. Amazingly, raptors do die of other means than shot and deliberate poison, although you’d never believe that from the media.

 

[scats]

I’m friends with the bloke who comes and shoots on our land and many of the local farms. He’s in his 60s and has been shooting nearly all his life.
We had a discussion about peoples perceptions of shooting and I said that I thought that people wouldn’t mind as much because it’s a quick, clean kill and the birds are dead before they hit the ground.
He just gave me one of his looks!
He then went on to tell me that the majority are still alive when his dog fetches them and he finishes them off. He said that’s how the majority of shooting is. He even finished the discussion with “it’s horrible really, when you think about it!”

 

[Millionwords]

The killing of raptors is absolutely incredibly rare now, although much publicised. Anyone who is found guilty is expelled from all shooting organisations. Amazingly, raptors do die of other means than shot and deliberate poison, although you’d never believe that from the media.

Expelled only if they're caught and its made public. But how many people are caught, hardly any.
I have come across a raptor in a trap before now on a shooting estate...just happened to be in there by accident did it...

 

[ycbm]

The killing of raptors is absolutely incredibly rare now, although much publicised. Anyone who is found guilty is expelled from all shooting organisations. Amazingly, raptors do die of other means than shot and deliberate poison, although you’d never believe that from the media.

I don't think you're right on that Clodagh, sorry. After wiping out the local buzzards, the shoot I used to live near asked me for permission to take magpies on my land. I refused but they disappeared anyway. (I know magpie are not raptors!).

 

[CrunchieBoi]

I think there are issues with driven grouse but grouse are a native bird and whilst I am sure you will contest this, many, many times over the last few years it has been proven that traditional keepering on the moors for grouse shooting, is doing a 'better' job (in spite of some very sickening killing of rare raptors) than the charities that try to take them on and please everyone. There is plenty of evidence for this though I know it will be dismissed and I will be told I know nothing. I am not a regular shot and do not participate in organised shooting but I am passionately interested in the health and restoration of moorland and it is something that directly concerns our own hill though we don't have shooting there.

I'm not going to bother getting into a debate around it on here either, my background is in ecology and I've yet to see a study that makes an overall convincing case for the type of intensive management seen on the average grouse moor. Ridiculously intensive management is required to produce the bag sizes offered by these estates.

A few select species (anyhting that does not directly compete with or predade grouse) do well on keepered moors and that's pretty much it. Keepered grouse moors represent an unnatural monoculture habitat.

Up here the keeper organisations were recently publicly celebrating the success of a single hen harrier nest, a pathetic return for hundreds of square miles of suitable habitat. Our only native cat species and plenty others are now pretty much extinct due to unrelenting persecution by keepers whose attitudes somehow haven't changed over the years if the continual prosecutions for wildlife crime are anything to go by.

Google the recent case of Rhys Davies, a gamekeeper who operated up the road a bit from us. I don't know how to post a link here. It makes for grim reading, especially when it clicks that his colleagues on the estate would have been fully aware of what he got up to.

 

[palo1]

Hmm, well I ride on an estate where there is large scale organised shooting and the bird life at the very least is incredibly rich. That keeper is certainly aware of the necessity of ensuring raptor's safety but then the birds are grouse rather than pheasant. Not sure if pheasant keepers are different; this isn't particularly rich in pheasant shooting here though it does occur on a smaller scale.

 

[palo1]

I'm not going to bother getting into a debate around it on here either, my background is in ecology and I've yet to see a study that makes an overall convincing case for the type of intensive management seen on the average grouse moor. Ridiculously intensive management is required to produce the bag sizes offered by these estates.

A few select species (anyhting that does not directly compete with or predade grouse) do well on keepered moors and that's pretty much it. Keepered grouse moors represent an unnatural monoculture habitat.

Up here the keeper organisations were recently publicly celebrating the success of a single hen harrier nest, a pathetic return for hundreds of square miles of suitable habitat. Our only native cat species and plenty others are now pretty much extinct due to unrelenting persecution by keepers whose attitudes somehow haven't changed over the years if the continual prosecutions for wildlife crime are anything to go by.

Google the recent case of Rhys Davies, a gamekeeper who operated up the road a bit from us. I don't know how to post a link here.

I hear you. At the same time, heather moorland is incredibly important and in order to maintain that the money from shooting provides a far better chance than any governmental or charitable organisation. Grouse shooting is changing too; many, many people who want to shoot do so exactly because they want to spend time in that environment and very few people are now unaware of the issues around intensive management of any habitat. There is, of course, a conflict but my experience directly compares a NT owned area of heather moorland/bog and that of a private grouse shooting estate and I know perfectly well which one is richer in diversity of plant, bird and mammal life and it's not the NT owned and managed one! That is just my experience but it is quite stark tbh.

I have just seen too that the NT who own Powis Castle have this: https://www.powiscastleshoot.co.uk/ I am not clear of the mechanics of owning a shoot on land owned by the NT but it is an interesting contradiction.

 

[palo1]

I'm not going to bother getting into a debate around it on here either, my background is in ecology and I've yet to see a study that makes an overall convincing case for the type of intensive management seen on the average grouse moor. Ridiculously intensive management is required to produce the bag sizes offered by these estates.

A few select species (anyhting that does not directly compete with or predade grouse) do well on keepered moors and that's pretty much it. Keepered grouse moors represent an unnatural monoculture habitat.

Up here the keeper organisations were recently publicly celebrating the success of a single hen harrier nest, a pathetic return for hundreds of square miles of suitable habitat. Our only native cat species and plenty others are now pretty much extinct due to unrelenting persecution by keepers whose attitudes somehow haven't changed over the years if the continual prosecutions for wildlife crime are anything to go by.

Google the recent case of Rhys Davies, a gamekeeper who operated up the road a bit from us. I don't know how to post a link here. It makes for grim reading, especially when it clicks that his colleagues on the estate would have been fully aware of what he got up to.

I know that this info is from the Moorland Association but Natural England appear to have verified the figures :https://www.moorlandassociation.org...n today welcomes,highest figure for 100 years. Can you explain why this isn't valid?

 

[Burnttoast]

I think there are issues with driven grouse but grouse are a native bird and whilst I am sure you will contest this, many, many times over the last few years it has been proven that traditional keepering on the moors for grouse shooting, is doing a 'better' job (in spite of some very sickening killing of rare raptors) than the charities that try to take them on and please everyone. There is plenty of evidence for this though I know it will be dismissed and I will be told I know nothing. I am not a regular shot and do not participate in organised shooting but I am passionately interested in the health and restoration of moorland and it is something that directly concerns our own hill though we don't have shooting there.

Better in terms of biodiversity? Or carbon capture? I just look at them and wonder where the trees are tbh. It is well understood that 'edge' habitats are most biodiverse but these are not provided by moorland in traditional management as far as I can see. I know that a lot is made of ground-nesting birds doing ok on grouse moors but that's at the expense of a lot of other species. In Scotland species like capercaillie and wild cat are absolutely on the brink and little effort is apparently made in traditional systems to provide habitat for them, as it doesn't suit grouse. It'd be interesting to see over a longer term how non-shooting management does, as most of it's pretty recent in relative terms.

 

[ycbm]

heather moorland is incredibly important and in order to maintain that the money from shooting provides a far better chance than any governmental or charitable organisation.

I lived near extensive and commercially shot heather moors for over 30 years as you know because we've had this exact same conversation before. The only parts of the moor that appeared to be managed were those that were shot and where the birds were bred. Where the birds were bred there was hectare after hectare of ugly squares cut in the Heather, completely ruining the magnificent view of the hillsides. Where that didn't happen, the heather appeared to function perfectly well on its own.
.

 

[palo1]

Better in terms of biodiversity? Or carbon capture? I just look at them and wonder where the trees are tbh. It is well understood that 'edge' habitats are most biodiverse but these are not provided by moorland in traditional management as far as I can see. I know that a lot is made of ground-nesting birds doing ok on grouse moors but that's at the expense of a lot of other species. In Scotland species like capercaillie and wild cat are absolutely on the brink and little effort is apparently made in traditional systems to provide habitat for them, as it doesn't suit grouse. It'd be interesting to see over a longer term how non-shooting management does, as most of it's pretty recent in relative terms.

I don't know! But here, heather moorland is absolutely inextricably linked with precious peat bogs and we know how incredibly valuable they are in terms of carbon capture. Ground nesting birds are also on the brink and our heather moorland is a vital habitat for them. Do we just wave goodbye to those species in the interest of 'other' species or for the principle of not shooting/managing those habitats? Certainly the upland heather moorlands here are totally unsuitable for trees and barely support any grazing animals; a few wild ponies do cope there though. Ideally, perhaps the upland moorland would be left alone possibly. BUT where an income can be made there is also the possibility of protection. Loss of income, from shooting for example, seems far more likely to result in more sheep which will eventually destroy that moorland (whilst also not thriving actually but hill farming is not easy...) and all that goes with it. Living, as I do, in this kind of area, that fills me with horror; the sight of curlew, golden plover, ravens, hare, foxes, snipe and many other species of plants and animals; rare and specialist as well as iconic common ones make me think that we should tread incredibly lightly with both principle and action in these places.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

I know that this info is from the Moorland Association but Natural England appear to have verified the figures :https://www.moorlandassociation.org...n today welcomes,highest figure for 100 years. Can you explain why this isn't valid?

It isn't valid becaus shooting estates were entirely esponsible for the poor baseline numbers which make any small improvement look good in terms of percentages.

Do you honestly believe that hen harriers as a species will be left alone to the extent that they'll be able to recover somewhat natural post-persecution numbers?

 

[ycbm]

This photo doesn't do justice to how ugly this is. Left to it's own devices, the moor in the distance would be covered in purple heather, as large parts nearby are. The areas cut in the heather to breed grouse spoil it completely.

 

[palo1]

I lived near extensive and commercially shot heather moors for over 30 years as you know because we've had this exact same conversation before. The only parts of the moor that appeared to be managed were those that were shot and where the birds were bred. Where the birds were bred there was hectare after hectare of ugly squares cut in the Heather, completely ruining the magnificent view of the hillsides. Where that didn't happen, the heather appeared to function perfectly well on its own.
.

Yes, I know. But you also had a good population of curlew and presumably other species which are absolutely on the brink of extinction. Those habitats and management may not have appealed to you but they seemed to work for the ground nesting birds at least...

 

[palo1]

It isn't valid becaus shooting estates were entirely esponsible for the poor baseline numbers which make any small improvement look good in terms of percentages.

Do you honestly believe that hen harriers as a species will be left alone to the extent that they'll be able to recover somewhat natural post-persecution numbers?

Well Red Kites have made an amazing recovery so yes, I believe it really is possible.

 

[palo1]

It isn't valid becaus shooting estates were entirely esponsible for the poor baseline numbers which make any small improvement look good in terms of percentages.

Do you honestly believe that hen harriers as a species will be left alone to the extent that they'll be able to recover somewhat natural post-persecution numbers?

Well, ok but even with poor baseline figures, a change in practices has resulted in improvement. That is exactly what is needed and the money to implement that isn't going to be coming from the government any time soon!!

 

[ycbm]

Yes, I know. But you also had a good population of curlew and presumably other species which are absolutely on the brink of extinction. Those habitats and management may not have appealed to you but they seemed to work for the ground nesting birds at least...

I never saw curlew above the moorland line, only below it on my land and other people's.

I nearly cried when the buyer of our house mowed my wild meadow.
.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Well Red Kites have made an amazing recovery so yes, I believe it really is possible.

Kites are an entirely different kettle of fish, one with less specific needs in terms of habitat. Do you think that if the numbers of hen harriers were to magically recover to the same extent as the kites did that they would be tolerated?
Bare in mind they'd generally be hanging around areas used for grouse shooting with an abundance of available prey and virtually zero predators of their own because the keepers have wiped them all out.

I absolutely maintain the belief that a few years worth of data from such a poor baseline isn't an overall valid means of looking at things. I also don't believe for a moment that increasing numbers of hen harriers will be tolerated unless the upcoming licencing of shooting estates has the desired effect and wildlife crime esentially becomes a thing of the past on sporting estates. That seems unlikely when many seem to rely on it.

 

[Sandstone1]

I’ve no idea of the numbers. But an awful lot of people in the countryside get their money from shooting, not only the shoot owners. I’m working today and there will be maybe 40 people there getting paid. And it’s all at least minimum wage now. Let alone the hotel where the guns stayed last night and all their staff.

And that makes animal abuse ok?

 

[stangs]

Had a look for some of the literature if anyone’s interested. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to find any papers comparing the biodiversity of grouse moors to areas managed for biodiversity, or anything on managed moors in Wales.

On peregrine falcons
On hen harriers
On meadow pipits
Government report