YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
Are you aware of the violent sabbing pre the hunting ban? Or the sabbing of legal shoots?
Hunting is in a spot of bother
- Thread starter Tiddlypom
- Start date
moosea
Well-Known Member
I have edited your comment - as that hunt continues to drag hunting through the mud with it's behavior.
For someone who hunts regularly I find it amazing that you are not already used to high levels of ignorance and prejudice.
So the sabs have sabbed hunts at country side shows. And drag hounds - This is a bit daft, but perhaps they thought it was fake,like trail hunting??
Am I to assume then that the sabs actually don't sab pleasure rides if they are not organised by hunts since no links have been provided??
moosea
Well-Known Member
Of course I am. If you choose to ocupy your free time killing living animals then you should expect to get a bit of sh*t over it!!!
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
So you are saying that anyone who is not vegan deserves to be followed and intimidated by masked people, while going about their lawful business?
moosea
Well-Known Member
No! I'm saying if you choose to take up a hobby that involves killing animals for fun then you must expect to be given a bit of sh*t for it!!
palo1
Well-Known Member
Is that right? I mean, you disagree with 'killing animals for fun' so that justifies some people being given 'a bit of sh*t for it'! (regardless of that activity being legal in the case of shooting, fishing, killing animals for food etc etc) ! What happens, say, if someone who disagreed with something that you do, decided that you deserved 'a bit of sh*t' for that? That would be ok I guess...That would help to build a better world wouldn't it?
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
But animals are killed to provide pleasure for people, as good, so take that to its logical conclusion, then anyone none vegan should expect to be stalked by masked activists
moosea
Well-Known Member
That is how the world works Palo! People disagree with the government and protest about it. They disagree with using petrol cars - and protest about it.
They disagree with hunting - they protest about it.
So if I thought dog fighting was cool and was something I wanted to take up for example? Yeah, I'd expect to get lots of sh*t for that!
If I decided that hamsters made better balls than tennis balls then I'd expect to get sh*t for that.
Or if I wanted to go fishing - for fun - then yeah I'd expect to get sh*t for that too!
You make your choices and live with the consequences.
I do things in my life that others don't agree with - I'm prepared for others to voice their opinions and happy to give my opinion back or happy to carry on regardless.
I don't run them over in my car!
No links to non hunt related pleasure rides being sabbed yet??
Yeah I get that, but if there is a final reason and its done as quickly and humanely as possible and then the animal is eaten, their hides tanned and used I suppose it gives a reason and makes it somewhat less disgusting to me than someone killing for the pure joy or entertainment value of it.
If all the cows that were killed for meat were chased around the supermarket car park by a gang of lads in hoodies for several hours and then torn apart by a pack of pitbulls then I'd protest against that!
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I don’t know if you own any animals, moosea, but would you agree it would be fair and right for someone who disagreed with horses being ridden, or the ownership of pets, to sab you while going about your daily business?
Animal rights people recently shut down a rabbit farm by, it appears, hounding the family until they cried enough. So if that’s all good then you think we should all intimidate people who we disagree with?
I’m very against many of the doctrines of the Catholic Church. Should I sab nuns?
Animal rights people recently shut down a rabbit farm by, it appears, hounding the family until they cried enough. So if that’s all good then you think we should all intimidate people who we disagree with?
I’m very against many of the doctrines of the Catholic Church. Should I sab nuns?
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
All the things listed apart from fishing would be illegal, so that isn't the same as protesting against something just because you don't agree with it? And I'm a bit concerned about what you mean by 'get sh*t for that'? If you mean legal protesting then fine, but if you mean the violent behaviour carried out by some sabs then I am shocked.
Regarding the fun rides, I used to live on the border between two counties and attended a lot of fun rides in both counties. Only one was run by someone other than a hunt (a RC, and without 'hunt' in their name) and that was the only one sabs ever turned up at. They turned up two years in a row and refused to believe it wasn't a hunt, hung around in bushes all day to try to get some evidence and scared several horses by doing so. They also caused traffic problems and resulted in the land owner refusing permission for the RC to use the land for a fun ride again.
I am pro-LEGAL hunting, but only in the (IMO unfortunately few) cases where the hunts attempt to kill/chase nothing (just follow an artificial scent), 'accidentally' kill/chase no animal, the hunts don't trespass, and they behave politely towards anyone they encounter. I am against hunting being made legal again, and I am definitely against hunts operating illegally now.
I appreciate that you feel passionate Moosea; I have debated with Palo and others on this thread before and (IMO) we had a useful and constructive conversation, but I don't think using extreme imaginary examples (e.g. killing hamsters) is achieving anything or helping prove a point.
stangs
Well-Known Member
True, you can interpret anything anyway you want. I can interpret your post as meaning that you’re secretly in love with FAT, but doesn’t make it true. And worse than not true, this kind of strawman argument means there’s no possibility of any real or constructive discussion. So then what could have been an insightful and educational thread - for both sides - just becomes polarised, thinly veiled name-calling. And that’s the tragedy of it.
moosea
Well-Known Member
Of course I would - if they disagree with it that much then they should protest about it!
Well that family chose to factory farm animals and force their will onto those animals but they should be free to do so with no one allowed to disagree with it??
I think we should be allowed to disagree with other peoples actions, particularly when it endangers others ( people or animals) or it kills tham in a way that is not humane as possible and as quick as possible.
Of course you should - if you feel that strongly - protest within the boundaries of the law. You should get a group of other nun haters together and go stand out side the nunnery shouting 'down with nuns' It's your right to do that
You go girl! Go give them nuns some stick over all their faults!It's legal to drive petrol cars but it's also legal to protest about it - it's how change occurs.
Of course I mean legally protest. I'm not an uncivilised barbarian. I have never protested illegally or tried to run people over, or accidently killed their pets, or accidently trespassed onto their land and disrupted their livestock....
Well they are allowed to protest. Shame it took them 2 years to realise it was not hunt related!
I've had horses spook at people in bushes too ... on a bridle path - keeps you alert I suppose. Thats the fun of riding 'off site' you never know what will happen.
I used to be very, very pro hunt. However more recently I have seen how hunts behave and am disgusted.
And if truth be known its not killing foxes that bothers me. Shoot them, do it fast, do it clean. I'm not a bunny hugger - but I really don't believe that any living thing should have a drawn out death. It's partly the attitude that hunts are above the law and do nothing to oust those repeat offender hunts that bothers me. And partly the attitude that ' sabs do worse' - it's a tedious attitude and reminds me of kids in a playground.
I used the absurd examples to highlight how, when you choose to do an activity which is abhorrent to a large section of the population, you should be prepared to defend those actions.
moosea
Well-Known Member
You could interpret it to mean that! I may be in love with FAT!!!
But I didn't write that you misinterpreted my post because you interpreted it how you did.
That would have been thinly veiled name calling
Gallop_Away
Well-Known Member
Sorry perhaps I didn't word it very well. I didn't mean that sabs would continue to sab legal hunts if all illegal hunting stopped. I think they would simply focus elsewhere. The reason I say that is that I do not think sabs sab illegal hunting simply because it is illegal. I think that many do it because they have a moral objection to animals being killed. So if the hunting ban was lifted tomorrow and fox hunting was no longer illegal, I do not think sabs would stop doing what they do and would continue to sab hunts, with the majority doing it with the intent to protect animals. So I'm hoping our hunt is no longer sabbed because they are satisfied that we aren't hunting foxes.
So what I mean to say is, if all illegal hunting stopped, I think these same sabs are likely to move on to other "sports" where animals are killed/used e.g. shooting, fishing, horse racing etc. I do not think sabs would dissappear if all illegal fox hunting stopped. I think they would simply move on and target other pursuits instead.
I'm not saying all sabs are in it for the love of animals. I have witnessed sabs strike out at hounds and attempt to scare horses and I do not believe these individuals do it for the love of animals. In fact I'm not sure why they do what they do.
moosea
Well-Known Member
I think you are absolutly right. Sabs would move onto other targets. And while I obviously condone any illegal activity, I also understand their need to 'protect' animals so it's kind of hard for me. On one hand you are legally allowed to pertake in an activity but for me morally it's wrong. It will never be resolved.
I do think hunting will be banned in all forms soon. And I do think hunts could have save it. But I think that it's past that point now.
Koweyka
Well-Known Member
Fun rides organised by hunts where all the profits go back into the hunts to fund the illegal activities are often protested at.
Fun rides organised by riding clubs and not hunt related why would they be sabbed.?
Drag hunts, never known one to be sabbed, we are often invited by the drag hunts to see what they do and they are happy for us to turn up unannounced as they have nothing to hide.
Country shows were hunts that have been blatantly killing foxes are parading like they are gods gift, yep protested those may the sound of boo’s never die !
Fun rides organised by riding clubs and not hunt related why would they be sabbed.?
Drag hunts, never known one to be sabbed, we are often invited by the drag hunts to see what they do and they are happy for us to turn up unannounced as they have nothing to hide.
Country shows were hunts that have been blatantly killing foxes are parading like they are gods gift, yep protested those may the sound of boo’s never die !
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
I think most do love animals. Plenty of people find shooting and racing (horse or greyhound) abhorrent, because of the suffering of animals. Its just that sabs, like any activist, are the ones that protest it.
I'm against shooting and racing, but I'd never protest as in; out on streets (over any topic) because it fills me with horror and I think there are more useful ways to affect change. In the case of sabbing, they are at least trying to save foxes lives in the moment, rather than JUST protest.
I can see their thinking, but I don't know how useful at affecting long term change it is. In the short term a life is saved (if there's illegal hunting occurring or if hounds "riot")
palo1
Well-Known Member
In my post above I put a link to an article about sabs at a drag hunt. As for country shows, my experience is at the larger ones where any number of hunts may be parading hounds or showing hounds. Why would sabs at the gate not know what the classes etc were about? It just feels like an 'anti-everything rural' sort of protest as often gets conflated with other hot topics such as farming, animal based foods etc etc. But, yeah I agree with the right to protest with placards, leaflets and chanting (preferably not abusive to individuals) - I just think it is very odd that in my experience those protesters don't actually know much about what they are doing there!!
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
I think a large part of the problem is that there are reasonable people on both sides, and extremists on both sides. And then there are the people - on both sides - for whom aggression/violence/intimidation is a large part of why they do what they do. The reasonable people on both sides are the ones who need to come together and work on how to stop those (on both sides) who behave badly/unlawfully/violently. The ones who behave badly are doing nothing in the long term except harm their 'cause'.
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
There are a lot of fact/science deniers in the countryside too though, because it is at odds with their established view of the world and farming practice. But science doesnt care about feelings, yet they all pat each other on the back telling each other how science is wrong and they are doing the right thing.
That's the same with some of the sabs I'm sure. There's too much polarisation and not enough real objective dialogue. At least those with the loudest voices in either "side" are the minority. We can hope that the quiet majority are more considered and objective.
moosea
Well-Known Member
I suppose they just see the words 'hunter class' and think it is prep for hunting - if you asked any of your non horsey friends they would probably think the same.
I don't think it is anti everything rural. Not at all. I think you're right about it all getting lumped in together.
For me personally, I think there is a lot of room for improvement in how we raise, handle and kill animals.
I don't eat meat - haven't since I was about 3 and found out what it was! My husband eats anything! If it has walked, crawled or swum he's probably eaten it at some point!! However he cooks it himself ( mainly because I'm awful at cooking meat!!)
It surprises many people that as a vegetraian one of the things I'd love to do is run an abattoir! But only because I know it could be done so much better.
palo1
Well-Known Member
There may be science deniers in the countryside and they come at you from all angles in my experience lol!! I have met folk who are as bonkers as anything in any number of ways both in the city and the countryside. On the whole, farmers, even those such as ourselves are VERY aware of science, of climate change, of animal welfare issues; not least because many feel absolutely on the front line of these issues as well as regularly being fed information from a variety of sources that they cannot avoid coming into contact with: vets, market practices and organisations, governmental organisations, environment organisations, nature organisations etc. For example, our hill grazing rights are on a hill that is a conservation area; there are a number of vested interests in the hill and it's management. The graziers that have grazed the hill their whole life have seen change that they are keen to reverse at the same time as pondering the sense in some policies and ideas that are being forced in their direction. I am not sure that pure science has anything like the impact it should; perhaps I am cynical but money seems to have more sway... There is an additional layer of information and 'pressure' that comes via subsidy and govt intervention in farming. FWIW we do not claim any subsidy (we are rare beasts but not totally reliant on the pitiful finances of hill farming thankfully!). Most farmers I speak to, certainly my neighbours who are graziers are only too aware of the impact of science on their way of life and livelihood. I am not sure about other people that live in the countryside tbh; second home owners, retired urbanites - everyone has a different perspective on the countryside of course.
palo1
Well-Known Member
God, it could be done so much better; with many smaller, more local abbatoirs with less stock going through them, more care, less stress. One of the grim things about big, commercially viable abbatoirs (aside from the distances that animals have to travel to get there and certain conditions in the system) is the brutalisation of abbatoir staff because of the conditions of factory killing. It could be so, so much better if more people were prepared to pay for both a better death for food destined animals and a better life for those people doing that job.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I think it’s a bit sad saying rural people are science deniers. Just as well urban people are all well educated, critical thinkers isn’t it.
Millionwords
Well-Known Member
I was only referring to the comment @palo1 made insinuating the antis etc dont know what they're protesting about really.
There are science deniers on both sides and suggesting it is only antis is disingenuous.
Take that idiot Welsh sheep farmer thats always on TV, he never has any comebacks to actual science, he just shouts loudly about the opposing view being wrong, despite the facts being otherwise.
As I said, the same problem exists on both sides.
Koweyka
Well-Known Member
A Portman hunt supporter has just been found guilty of assaulting a sab, he grabbed a lanyard around her neck and drove off dragging her by the neck after he had driven into another sab, this was after he beat a sab with a stick. He got a 16 week community resolution order.
moosea
Well-Known Member
^^^ All of this, a thousand times over.
Saddens me to think of the whole thing.
Part of the reason I am no longer really buying meat for OH. I don't want to be part of that system.
stangs
Well-Known Member
That seems a utterly gross miscarriage of justice. I don’t suppose you have any information on the court case, do you?
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
I never really understand the objections to shooting… unless you are vegan.. it’s taking an animal quickly out of its own environment with out the stress associated with being transported to kill… the ultimate free range.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I think people object to the 'sporting' element of it; there is a moral outrage that anyone should develop a skill for fun that involves any animal, even if that skill does not result in a worse outcome. That was, in part, the downfall of hunting and is still referenced with absolute regularity -including on this thread; that the outrage is not about the manner of death of the fox but that people should enjoy the skill involved in hunting with hounds or riding to watch those hounds. I know there are those that object on the grounds of it being wrong to kill any animal and I respect that view but there are a great many people who feel more strongly about people finding sport in any interaction with animals. It is coming to equestrianism generally too. FWIW I would prefer to only eat shot game tbh for the reason you have identified.