Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Millionwords]

There have been a multitude of misdemeanors posted alongside the chat of shooting.
Its interesting that the pro hunt have not said anything about it, but what CAN be said, when the governing bodies do nothing, and many many many people in the hunting community are part of the problem. Those that aren't are tarred, and yet do not stand up and make their voices heard within the community. Doing nothing is almost condoning the bad behavior.

 

[palo1]

In a 'Revenge' action against the attack on Lisa Jaffrey (being hit by a vehicle) over 80 sabs converged on the Cottesmore on Saturday. Their reports are gleeful of course. The Cottesmore have a slightly different account. Here is theirs:-

Dear All
Thank you for those who came out on Saturday from Braunston – and we hope you enjoyed the busy and fun packed day. It was great to see so many children out and the photographs from Nico show just how much fun everybody had. We know that some of you suffered verbal (and physical) abuse at the hands of the idiotic band of sabs who came out. We would like to encourage anyone who suffered any abuse to report it to the police by calling 101 or reporting online through the Leicestershire Police website. We know that many reports and complaints have been submitted – the more we submit the more chance we have of some action being taken – so please don’t be shy! We do hope their stupidity didn’t ruin your day.
On another note, Grocer, the hound who was injured at Manor Lane, is fine – he has a bit of a fat face but has been spoiled rotten with gravy bones by Sharon our Stud Groom, and is on the mend. His accident was a direct result of sabs agitating loudly, which made Grocer bolt though the horses, who became spooked. It’s really hard to see how the sabs can be interested in animal welfare if they are prepared to risk injury to our precious hounds.
Some of you may have read the sabs reports from Saturday – claiming a wonderful success in their ‘hit’ – I’m sure we all recognise that their reports are the stuff of dreams. Most of them were totally clueless and lost, and their only tactic was to use verbal abuse and foul language – whilst hiding behind a mask or balaclava. During the day we caught them frequently leaving gates open onto roads – either deliberately or through stupidity – which could directly lead to livestock being killed. Another stupid activity is blowing their horn to call hounds towards the roads – again putting our animals at risk. Another idiot tried to rattle a plastic bag around a follower’s horse to frighten it. It becomes increasingly hard to reconcile this behaviour with their stated aims of animal welfare!
One brainless sab tried to interfere with the treatment of the injured hound – and had to be physically restrained for her own safety – an injured and scared hound could easily bite someone who was not experienced in their care.
We know that one rider was assaulted in their horsebox and another was subject to physical assault from a group of about 15 sabs who surrounded her and tried to grab her horse. These incidents are being dealt with by the Police, and whilst unpleasant, were not dangerous. The vast majority of the bad behaviour was verbal abuse and threats, and most of the “sabs” are extremely cowardly – especially if they are not surrounded by a gang of their masked thug friends!
Thank you to our farmers who allowed us all to have a wonderful day – and we are all glad that despite the arrival of a hoard of idiots that our day was not, contrary to popular belief, ruined or shut down. Well done everyone who made such an effort to put on a very successful day.


Who knows exactly where the truth is. The fact that only 80 something sabs could be mustered is quite interesting - I would have thought many more than that would want to be involved considering the seriousness of the incident involving LJ as well as the positive media storm that resulted. Thankfully LJ is not seriously injured but now on remand for other activist offences. Good to hear the hound involved in an incident is going to be fine too. As many people who have witnessed Sab behaviour will know, the above report does ring true about the tactics of disruption that they use and which can increase the risks to all involved.

I know that anti hunters will repudiate all of the above but it seemed worth posting if only to balance out the sab only reports that tend to arrive on this thread.

 

[Millionwords]

That may well be the case, but its whataboutery in this instance because they wouldnt be there if hunts weren't doing things they shouldn't....like running people over, killing foxes, killing cats, getting convicted of criminal damage...

 

[Steerpike]

The whole hunting debate just goes around in circles, I don't think anything will change unless the governing body of hunting pulls their finger out and publicly starts suspending/banning/fining the hunts that are seen to break the law, if they don't they will lose hunting altogether.

 

[palo1]

Yes the Hunting authorities (bit of misnomer possibly) definitely need to get their disciplinary and governance procedures into gear. Sab groups and individuals also need to consider their own discipline and governance (such as there is there too!!).

 

[GoldenWillow]

https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/...XkFMUwul8heUJAeOQSHgojVCwroby3nTsWrOdED9qHwxk

A report about an incident mentioned earlier. I did doubt it slightly at the time but sadly, once again, it was true.

 

[Steerpike]

Well the hunt governing bodies have to be the 'grown ups' hold their hands up say they've been rubbish up until now and be seen to be coming down hard on the hunts that don't follow the law and their rules, this will in turn maybe save hunting, that way they can,god forbid, have a discussion with the sabs to show them that they are trying to improve, it seems both sides are refusing to talk to each other and from an outsiders point of view its like a bunch of children bickering ( I know it's more serious than that)

 

[Clodagh]

That may well be the case, but its whataboutery in this instance because they wouldnt be there if hunts weren't doing things they shouldn't....like running people over, killing foxes, killing cats, getting convicted of criminal damage...

But the sabs do get very upset if hounds are hit by cars, and always blame the hunt. Yet when they are out they constantly try to distress and confuse hounds which leads to more of them getting hit by cars. So it’s not really whataboutery. It is relevant.

 

[Clodagh]

Hunts themselves also need to get better at manning up to stuff. Idk exactly what happened with Matrix but if you know hounds (or your dog, or even your cat) have caught and attacked something, you don’t slink off you try really, really hard to find the injured animal. At least if he had been taken immediately to the vet he could have had pain control and been treated for shock.
When that woman was hit by a car, fair enough move hounds on but someone from the hunt should have immediately engaged, tried to help, spoken to the police, ID’d the person responsible.
So it isn’t just the governing body that need to wake up.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I doubt that the truth features much in either the sabs or the Cottesmore Hunt's account of the day's proceedings last Saturday ?. Both will be putting their own spin on it.

Sabs, even the non violent ones, actively disrupt the hunt then bray to all that the hunt has no control of its hounds. No sh1t, Sherlock, that's because you've just thoroughly upset and confused the hounds with false horn calls and citronella spray.

Peaceful non disruptive monitoring is quite another thing. Get the incriminating evidence in the can then take it to the police.

Since the death of its founder the formerly bordering on reasonable pro legal trail hunting FB page This is Hunting UK (who shared the Cottesmore's fanciful report) has now sold out completely to pro traditional hunting. Constant harking back to the founder and his ideals fools no one. It's noticeable that most of the sensible contributors to the page have bailed.

 

[SilverLinings]

That's very poor. Back in the day as a teenager (long pre ban) I hunted with the East Devon many times. Lots of road work even then...

We pony clubbers were welcomed, but were very much kept in line and were expected to behave at all times.

One of the masters at the time was a judge, as was his wife who also rode with the E.Devon. Lovely family, and I'd have said great respecters of the law and of doing the right thing.

I have sometimes wondered what they make of the self inflicted mess that hunting is in now. Last I heard they were both still alive, but are rather elderly now.

Apologies TP, I've only just seen your reply. I also hunted with the ED as a teenager, back in the early/mid 90s when foxhunting was still legal; at that age I hadn't really formed my own opinion on hunting. A few months ago I was visiting my parents in the area and bumped into an employee of the hunt with a follower who I used to know when I hunted. they didn't know my opinion on hunting had changed, and I got a very enthusiastic description of what goes on. Immediately post-ban (when I last lived in the immediate area) the ED had been at least attempting to stick to the rules and trail hunt so I was surprised to hear this.

It seems that foxhunting is still quite common in Devon as a whole, to my knowledge at least two other hunts appear to also be sticking to the 'old ways'.

Just to make it clear, I haven't observed/attended these hunts since pre-ban, but my information has come from locals who are currently involved with the hunts (who may be boasting to what they think is an empathetic audience, but I think it unlikely).

 

[Millionwords]

The fact that only 80 something sabs could be mustered is quite interesting - I would have thought many more than that would want to be involved considering the seriousness of the incident involving LJ as well as the positive media storm that resulted. Thankfully LJ is not seriously injured but now on remand for other activist offences. Good to hear the hound involved in an incident is going to be fine too. As many people who have witnessed Sab behaviour will know, the above report does ring true about the tactics of disruption that they use and which can increase the risks to all involved.

There are alot of hunts need sabbing i suppose, and getting there may be a long way.
80 is a pretty hefty number considering most hunts dont get double figures of sabs each week.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Immediately post-ban (when I last lived in the immediate area) the ED had been at least attempting to stick to the rules and trail hunt so I was surprised to hear this.

That's an interesting point. I've long wondered how many hunts did initially try and hunt legally post ban, before realising just how easy it was to carry on as before.

ETA My days riding with the ED were about 20 years before yours .

 

[Koweyka]

I didn’t go to the Cottesmore Sab, instead my group monitored two hunts on Saturday at one the support slashed our tyres as we stopped the hounds killing a fox in a school in front of the police and at the other hunt the terrier boys complete with terriers were caught having filled a badger sett in, the hunt then spent hours chasing foxes in the valley the blocked sett was in.

That’s now takes our tally up to four cases in with the police two possibly three for illegal hunting and we aren’t out of November yet.

We have been to two more hunts today, foxes filmed running for their lives at both, one hound van left an injured hound behind, was clipped by a car so forgive me for not listening to the righteous indignation of some, because the whole sorry s show of trail hunting is just an excuse to abuse wildlife and domestic pets and hounds.

 

[SilverLinings]

That's an interesting point. I've long wondered how many hunts did initially try and hunt legally post ban, before realising just how easy it was to carry on as before.

ETA My days riding with the ED were about 20 years before yours .

Yes, I wonder if they were initially scared of prosecution but slowly drifted back to the old ways after realising it wasn't too hard to get away with. I suppose as for the first decade or so mobile phones didn't have cameras (or they were very poor quality) it was harder for monitors/sabs to gather evidence and passers-by wouldn't catch a video of a cat/sheep/deer/fox being chased which they could then give to the newspapers.

It does continue to amaze and confuse me that the illegal hunters are so arrogant (or stupid?) that they seem to be totally blind to the fact that they are a very tiny minority, and they are binging about both the demise of the 'sport' they love and the demise of the next best thing (trail hunting).

Regarding the control of dogs and the incidents of hounds chasing pets and livestock I don't see why hounds are still classed as 'working' dogs. If a hunt is abiding by the law then the hounds are just having fun chasing a scent for sport, they aren't providing a pest-control service (or hunting for food etc). They are no more a working animal than a pet dog who competes in agility or cannicross etc.

 

[SilverLinings]

Apologies if it's already been explained on the thread (it's got so long that I can't remember!) but can someone involved with a legal trail hunt tell me how trail hunting packs justify having terrier men? I can't really see what they are for if a pre-laid scent is being followed.

 

[Koweyka]

Not my group, we were lucky only two of ours were done.

https://fb.watch/gXrcdBTdBz/

 

[Clodagh]

Apologies if it's already been explained on the thread (it's got so long that I can't remember!) but can someone involved with a legal trail hunt tell me how trail hunting packs justify having terrier men? I can't really see what they are for if a pre-laid scent is being followed.

I think it is because if hounds mark an earth it is still legal to dig and dispatch the fox.

 

[SilverLinings]

I think it is because if hounds mark an earth it is still legal to dig and dispatch the fox.

Ah, that would make sense.

Although surely the hounds aren't very good at their job of hunting a trail if they are distracted by fox scent...*


*The sarcasm isn't aimed at you Clodagh, and thank you for explaining what the terrier men are for

 

[Clodagh]

Ah, that would make sense.

Although surely the hounds aren't very good at their job of hunting a trail if they are distracted by fox scent...*


*The sarcasm isn't aimed at you Clodagh, and thank you for explaining what the terrier men are for

My dogs hunt mice very enthusiastically when out on a walk. Hopefully not while actually working.

 

[Millionwords]

I think it is because if hounds mark an earth it is still legal to dig and dispatch the fox.

Ah, that would make sense.

Although surely the hounds aren't very good at their job of hunting a trail if they are distracted by fox scent...*


*The sarcasm isn't aimed at you Clodagh, and thank you for explaining what the terrier men are for

I thought the law was with TWO dogs.
NOT a pack.
And if they go to ground in Badger setts, which is where they do go to ground, digging that, interfering with it is an offence under WACA.

 

[SilverLinings]

My dogs hunt mice very enthusiastically when out on a walk. Hopefully not while actually working.

Good point, and my dogs (mainly spaniels) have always followed scents when out walking, but as you say if we are working them we wouldn't expect them to get distracted like that.

I thought the law was with TWO dogs.
NOT a pack.

We were talking about terrier men (who may have just two terriers) and digging a fox out, not foxes being killed or chased by a pack of hounds.

I don't believe that some hunts are acting legally though, and in those cases the terrier men and the rest of the hunt are still acting as they would pre-ban.

 

[Millionwords]

Good point, and my dogs (mainly spaniels) have always followed scents when out walking, but as you say if we are working them we wouldn't expect them to get distracted like that.



We were talking about terrier men (who may have just two terriers) and digging a fox out, not foxes being killed or chased by a pack of hounds.

I don't believe that some hunts are acting legally though, and in those cases the terrier men and the rest of the hunt are still acting as they would pre-ban.

See my edit. The fox would go ground because it is being chased. Why would terrier men be there with the hunt if they were not putting up foxes using their hounds?
They go ground in badger setts usually. Its an offence under WACA to interfere with a sett.

 

[Clodagh]

See my edit. The fox would go ground because it is being chased. Why would terrier men be there with the hunt if they were not putting up foxes using their hounds?
They go ground in badger setts usually. Its an offence under WACA to interfere with a sett.

Foxes also tuck away in earths when they know the hunt is around, so it isn’t always in setts and it’s not always because they’ve been hunted.
ETA or drains.

 

[Millionwords]

Foxes also tuck away in earths when they know the hunt is around, so it isn’t always in setts and it’s not always because they’ve been hunted.

But the terrier men follow the hunt because why would a trail enable them to better come across a fox in an earth rather a sett? ?

There is no justification for terrier men being there that doesn't implicate the hunt in illegal activity....they are after all, the hunts "soft underbelly" as they said themselves.

 

[SilverLinings]

See my edit. The fox would go ground because it is being chased. Why would terrier men be there with the hunt if they were not putting up foxes using their hounds?
They go ground in badger setts usually. Its an offence under WACA to interfere with a sett.

That is why I queried their presence on trail hunts. As I understand it from Clodagh though the hounds on a trail hunt may get distracted and indicate a den whilst following a legitimate trail, and then the terrier men will dig and dispatch (presumably once the hounds and hunt have moved on). I am fairly sceptical about how often this happens versus the hounds chasing the fox to earth and then the fox being dug out (or as you say the fox being dug out in order to chase it), but it is clearly possible, and I'm sure there are some hunts sticking to the law on this.

 

[Millionwords]

See attachments terrier men are not doing this

Certain forms of hunting, very closely defined in Schedule 1, are exempt namely:

• Stalking and flushing out a wild mammal for certain purposes, with a view to its being shot forthwith, and not using more than two dogs;
• Use of not more than one dog at a time below ground in the course of stalking or flushing to protect birds for shooting;

 

[Sandstone1]

That is why I queried their presence on trail hunts. As I understand it from Clodagh though the hounds on a trail hunt may get distracted and indicate a den whilst following a legitimate trail, and then the terrier men will dig and dispatch (presumably once the hounds and hunt have moved on). I am fairly sceptical about how often this happens versus the hounds chasing the fox to earth and then the fox being dug out (or as you say the fox being dug out in order to chase it), but it is clearly possible, and I'm sure there are some hunts sticking to the law on this.

Anyone that thinks that is how terrier men work is living in cloud cuckoo land.... They block sets including badger sets and dig out foxes so they can be chased.

 

[Millionwords]

That is why I queried their presence on trail hunts. As I understand it from Clodagh though the hounds on a trail hunt may get distracted and indicate a den whilst following a legitimate trail, and then the terrier men will dig and dispatch (presumably once the hounds and hunt have moved on). I am fairly sceptical about how often this happens versus the hounds chasing the fox to earth and then the fox being dug out (or as you say the fox being dug out in order to chase it), but it is clearly possible, and I'm sure there are some hunts sticking to the law on this.

If they're "distracted" after nearly 20 years of training...how can anyone expect them to be doing anything other than chasing fox.
Particularly when the scent of the trail is still (according to hunts) fox urine. I don't think they just mosey past a sett get distracted and mark to ground by chance very often

 

[SilverLinings]

I have no doubt that many hunts are not acting correctly/using terrier men within the confines of the law, but I have seen no evidence that ALL hunts/terrier men are breaking the law.

I suspect it will be a moot point in the not-too-distant-future as the behaviour of the illegally-hunting fraternity is likely to result in the banning of using dogs in any form of hunting. I even think there might be such concern that certain people will try to find loopholes/excuses to still hunt with dogs illegally that even things like ratting with terriers may end up banned.