Hunting is in a spot of bother

[palo1]

I think a lot of the resentment towards the ban was because it seemed so political; there was Tony Blair's unpopularity over the Gulf war and it was seen as his 'get out of jail free' card with his left wingers; old scores to be settled ('Thatcher closed the pits, now it's the toffs' turn') and the alleged huge donation to the Labour Party from PETA
If it had been seen purely as an animal welfare thing welfare issue the reaction might have been very different
I'm very anti 'real' hunting now but got sucked into the hype; I'm embarrassed to admit that I even signed Roger Scruton's stupid Hunting Declaration

I never signed the Declaration but I don't think it was entirely stupid as a statement of position. It was just a community trying to communicate their strength of feeling I guess.

 

[SantaVera]

They just like killing things. Pure and simple. Also some of them are not good enough riders for drag hunting as its faster and has less stopping and starting and hanging around than fox hunting.

I agree with this statement I've been drag hunting, it's fast and fun, when I mentioned this to some fox hunting people the reaction was that that is far too much for them.

 

[Fellewell]

I wasn’t aware that clean boot only referred to bloodhounds, and ycbm politely pointed me to the correct definition without being rude like you! I do however know that trail hunting use a fox scent, I also know about dogs scenting as i participate in dog Scentwork and man trailing. A dog can not detect the difference between an artificial fox scent and a natural fox scent, unless that artificial fox scent doesn’t actually smell like fox. That is not at all the same thing as a visual dummy and a pheasant



Oooh I think you'll find they can detect a difference. Those noses are very sensitive. I knew a bloke who worked his dog at C in obedience and his dog could differentiate between cloths wiped on different part of his owner's body (each to his own, we used tongs!). The main thing that affects a hounds or any canines scenting ability is stress IME.

 

[ester]

I agree with this statement I've been drag hunting, it's fast and fun, when I mentioned this to some fox hunting people the reaction was that that is far too much for them.

See note about standing round socialising

 

[Tiddlypom]

Back when I was hunting long before the ban (mid 70s to early 80s) I didn't ever witness any overt blood thirstiness from any person. Barring one memorable occasion, the fox usually escaped outright and if hounds did mark it to ground, it was left there undisturbed.

The memorable occasion was once when the fox had gone to ground, for some reason (presumably the landowner's wishes) it was subsequently bolted from its hiding place with the hounds waiting close up to get their fox. We in the field were a little way back watching. Up popped the fox and it got clean away, leaving the hounds and hunt staff looking a trifle foolish. Quite a few of us cheered the fox, pleased that it had got away. We got a right bolloxing, mind . I was about 15 at the time.

The illegal hunts will be self selecting the nasty blood thirsty types who couldn't give a toss about the law.

The Avon Vale has long been known to be flouting the Hunting Act on a regular basis, but the governing did nothing to attempt to check them, and are thus complicit in creating the monster which was only revealed to the wider public by the hunt themselves revelling in their utterly abhorrent practices.

 

[ycbm]

I agree with this statement I've been drag hunting, it's fast and fun, when I mentioned this to some fox hunting people the reaction was that that is far too much for them.

It depends very much on the hunt. The Beaufort, for example, will be jumping walls all day long, the Berkely right next door is big hedge country, the Curre just over the Severn Bridge had no jumping at all the day I went out.

 

[Kunoichi73]

I think a lot of the resentment towards the ban was because it seemed so political; there was Tony Blair's unpopularity over the Gulf war and it was seen as his 'get out of jail free' card with his left wingers; old scores to be settled ('Thatcher closed the pits, now it's the toffs' turn') and the alleged huge donation to the Labour Party from PETA
If it had been seen purely as an animal welfare thing welfare issue the reaction might have been very different
I'm very anti 'real' hunting now but got sucked into the hype; I'm embarrassed to admit that I even signed Roger Scruton's stupid Hunting Declaration

I'm not a fan of hunting but at the time of the ban, part of me didn't want it to happen. Why? Because in some circles it had become part of that horrible British tradition of bigoted classism. I hate this attitude with a passion and I lost track of the number of people I heard say things like 'I'm all for this ban as it's one in the eye for the toffs'. It showed so much ignorance from city folk about how the countryside works.

I don't care where someone is from, what their background is or where they went to school etc and I hate that it is still acceptable to use this as a way to insult and judge people.

 

[lizziebell]

You seem to not understand much about ‘hunting the clean boot’! It is not trail hunting at all but using a pack of bloodhounds to follow the natural scent of human runners. Bloodhound packs along with true drag packs, are not governed by the BSHA, instead most belong to the Master of Drag and Bloodhounds Association.

Thank you TGM, ycbm has already pointed out my incorrect use of the terminology (and rudely by Clodagh). I never claimed to be an expert on any type of hunting, so chose the incorrect term, however my post stating the use of fox scent still stands correct.

 

[lizziebell]

I find it beyond unlikely that a dog that can sniff out cancer, can track people who have been missing for days, can find a set of car keys on a Moor but can’t tell the difference between stale fox urine and fresh running fox.
Pheasants and dummies are not hidden in plain sight.

I think, as with my use of incorrect terminology I shouldn’t have used the words “can’t tell the difference”, as that was simplifying how dogs process the information. Yes they can tell the difference between old and fresh scent, but that’s irrelevant to how dogs react to a scent. Dogs reactions aren’t to the scent itself, stale or fresh (it’s whatever scent the dog has been trained for) but the reward of what following/ finding that specific scent brings them. In Scentwork trials and training, you can get false indications from where an old scent article has been placed if the area hasn’t been cleaned well enough. I keep 2 jars containing scented articles. They get “refreshed” every 6 months. It doesn’t matter if I put down a freshly scented article or one that’s 6 months old - the find of the actual scent is the same for both, and the reward is equal for finding both (for my dog it’s cheese or a ball).
I don’t know how far in advance the foxhunting trail is laid (so if someone can educate me on this that would be great), so for arguments sake, let’s say it’s laid 45 minutes before the hounds get to it (I can’t see it being timed much closer as I guess the fun is taken out if you can actually see or hear the person laying the trail?) - there’s always going to be a chance that within that 45 minutes a fox has crossed that trail.
There is no justification for using a fox scent as it’s asking for “accidents” to happen.

 

[shortstuff99]

𝗖𝗢𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗦𝗠𝗢𝗥𝗘 𝗛𝗨𝗡𝗧𝗦𝗠𝗔𝗡 𝗦𝗔𝗠 𝗝𝗢𝗡𝗘𝗦 on horseback deliberately jumps gate and into hunt saboteur #Cottesmorehunt | By Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs | Facebook

𝗖𝗢𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗦𝗠𝗢𝗥𝗘 𝗛𝗨𝗡𝗧𝗦𝗠𝗔𝗡 𝗦𝗔𝗠 𝗝𝗢𝗡𝗘𝗦 on horseback deliberately jumps gate and into hunt saboteur #Cottesmorehunt

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[Sandstone1]

𝗖𝗢𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗦𝗠𝗢𝗥𝗘 𝗛𝗨𝗡𝗧𝗦𝗠𝗔𝗡 𝗦𝗔𝗠 𝗝𝗢𝗡𝗘𝗦 on horseback deliberately jumps gate and into hunt saboteur #Cottesmorehunt | By Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs | Facebook

𝗖𝗢𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗦𝗠𝗢𝗥𝗘 𝗛𝗨𝗡𝗧𝗦𝗠𝗔𝗡 𝗦𝗔𝗠 𝗝𝗢𝗡𝗘𝗦 on horseback deliberately jumps gate and into hunt saboteur #Cottesmorehunt

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He could have killed that sab, he should be arrested for that. Wheres the care for his horse too? Yet another isolated incident?

 

[w1bbler]

𝗖𝗢𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗦𝗠𝗢𝗥𝗘 𝗛𝗨𝗡𝗧𝗦𝗠𝗔𝗡 𝗦𝗔𝗠 𝗝𝗢𝗡𝗘𝗦 on horseback deliberately jumps gate and into hunt saboteur #Cottesmorehunt | By Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs | Facebook

𝗖𝗢𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗦𝗠𝗢𝗥𝗘 𝗛𝗨𝗡𝗧𝗦𝗠𝗔𝗡 𝗦𝗔𝗠 𝗝𝗢𝗡𝗘𝗦 on horseback deliberately jumps gate and into hunt saboteur #Cottesmorehunt

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That's horrific. Looking at the comments, it appears people are justifying the huntsmans actions because the sabs were asked to move They are also claiming he walked into the path of the horse, but watching the clip, his back was turned away from the gate as he moved.
Can't wait to see how the pros on here justify this

 

[teapot]

UK hunting being noticed by the NYT too.

The Fight Over Fox Hunting: A Cold War on England’s Muddy Fields (Published 2023)

Some groups still ride out even though the hunting of foxes using dogs was banned in 2004. They are confronted by anti-hunt activists in a very British clash of class, tradition and town versus country.

nyti.ms

 

[SilverLinings]

That is awful, it's stupid behaviour and absolutely unjustifiable. Even if the sab(s) did refuse to move the rider could have killed him, all in the name of a leisure activity.

 

[SilverLinings]

Hunting being noticed by the NYT too

The Fight Over Fox Hunting: A Cold War on England’s Muddy Fields (Published 2023)

Some groups still ride out even though the hunting of foxes using dogs was banned in 2004. They are confronted by anti-hunt activists in a very British clash of class, tradition and town versus country.

nyti.ms

That article seems to be behind a paywall- what's the NYT's opinion on it? Are they pro-foxhunting? Hunting in general is obviously quite a big thing in the US and still legal.

 

[teapot]

That article seems to be behind a paywall- what's the NYT's opinion on it? Are they pro-foxhunting? Hunting in general is obviously quite a big thing in the US and still legal.

You should be able to read it? (I didn’t pay to read it!) The article falls back on the class war issue, and sabs versus the hunts. Usual stuff!

 

[shortstuff99]

That article seems to be behind a paywall- what's the NYT's opinion on it? Are they pro-foxhunting? Hunting in general is obviously quite a big thing in the US and still legal.

The NYT for some reason loves an anti British article. So even if there is truth in there it will get a fair spin for why we are terrible . Not that we don't always deserve it.

 

[ycbm]

𝗖𝗢𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗦𝗠𝗢𝗥𝗘 𝗛𝗨𝗡𝗧𝗦𝗠𝗔𝗡 𝗦𝗔𝗠 𝗝𝗢𝗡𝗘𝗦 on horseback deliberately jumps gate and into hunt saboteur #Cottesmorehunt | By Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs | Facebook

𝗖𝗢𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗦𝗠𝗢𝗥𝗘 𝗛𝗨𝗡𝗧𝗦𝗠𝗔𝗡 𝗦𝗔𝗠 𝗝𝗢𝗡𝗘𝗦 on horseback deliberately jumps gate and into hunt saboteur #Cottesmorehunt

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Jesus wept!
.

 

[SilverLinings]

You should be able to read it? (I didn’t pay to read it!) The article falls back on the class war issue, and sabs versus the hunts

I've managed to get to it by googling the article rather than going to it via the link

ETA having now read it the article seems to mainly be about the hunting issue being a class war, rather than any opinion on whether illegal hunting is right or wrong morally (obviously they must recognise it's at least wrong from a legal POV). Even the quotes they include from both sides mainly consist about comments on class which is disappointing as I think the issue is actually about far more than that (for both sides).

 

[lizziebell]

That's horrific. Looking at the comments, it appears people are justifying the huntsmans actions because the sabs were asked to move They are also claiming he walked into the path of the horse, but watching the clip, his back was turned away from the gate as he moved.
Can't wait to see how the pros on here justify this

That is horrendous! How can that be justified. Would these people also drive someone over if they stood in front of their car ?

 

[Dave's Mam]

That is horrendous! How can that be justified. Would these people also drive someone over if they stood in front of their car ?

Aye, with not a backward glance.

 

[SilverLinings]

That is horrendous! How can that be justified. Would these people also drive someone over if they stood in front of their car ?

I think that's already been done (but not the same hunt I don't think)

 

[shortstuff99]

That's horrific. Looking at the comments, it appears people are justifying the huntsmans actions because the sabs were asked to move They are also claiming he walked into the path of the horse, but watching the clip, his back was turned away from the gate as he moved.
Can't wait to see how the pros on here justify this

I have had friends share this and laugh about it and think the huntsman did nothing wrong?! I just can't understand it, even if you've asked them to move etc you shouldn't jump anything if people are by it as anything could happen and it would be dangerous.

If I want to park my car and a pedestrian is in the way and I ask them to move and they don't, I then don't have the right to just run them over.

 

[Miss_Millie]

That is horrendous! How can that be justified. Would these people also drive someone over if they stood in front of their car ?

Yes. It happened quite recently and the lady was very lucky that she wasn't killed.

But no, these are just a few bad seeds, violent individuals are not rife in the hunting community, of course not...

 

[shortstuff99]

I think that's already been done (but not the same hunt I don't think)

It was this hunt!

 

[Millionwords]

The illegal hunts will be self selecting the nasty blood thirsty types who couldn't give a toss about the law.

A really Good point.

 

[Millionwords]

𝗖𝗢𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗦𝗠𝗢𝗥𝗘 𝗛𝗨𝗡𝗧𝗦𝗠𝗔𝗡 𝗦𝗔𝗠 𝗝𝗢𝗡𝗘𝗦 on horseback deliberately jumps gate and into hunt saboteur #Cottesmorehunt | By Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs | Facebook

𝗖𝗢𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗦𝗠𝗢𝗥𝗘 𝗛𝗨𝗡𝗧𝗦𝗠𝗔𝗡 𝗦𝗔𝗠 𝗝𝗢𝗡𝗘𝗦 on horseback deliberately jumps gate and into hunt saboteur #Cottesmorehunt

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Jesus chri$t, thats horrific.

And THE NUMBER OF COMMENTS Justifying the huntsmans actions!!!!

 

[Miss_Millie]

Can I just add that anyone who has an ounce of respect and care for their horse would never put them in harms way like that. The horse could have broken its leg. I feel so sad for the animals who have no choice but to partake in this circus. I hope the person who was knocked down was okay.

 

[meleeka]

I can’t remember if it’s come up before but where does the scent come from? I’m assuming that there’s a poor fox somewhere shut in a cage just so it’s urine can be collected?

 

[SilverLinings]

It was this hunt!

The governing body should be sanctioning them severely, that's two acts of violence against members of the public, both of which could have been fatal. That hunt clearly has a serious problem with whoever is running it if this type of behaviour is sanctioned, encouraged or just ignored. If a follower behaves like that then they should be banned from the hunt, and if it's hunt staff then they should be up before the BHSA for disciplinary action for at the very least bringing the sport into disrepute (plus facing any appropriate legal repercussions).