Hunting is in a spot of bother

[SilverLinings]

Never even thought of this before, but actually now it’s been pointed out - they have got a point. Dog owners have responsibility to clear up after their dogs, so why should hounds be different. As far as I’m aware hound poop is just as toxic to people and livestock as a pet dogs. You see all these stories of farmers livestock aborting due to coming into contact with dog poop, but whose to say it’s not from the local hunt going through their land ? !

And if they are trail hunting they can arrange to stay on private land (by invitation!) where the owner doesn't mind the fouling, and if they need to cross a road they could have someone there in advance to do gates and pick up after the hounds if necessary.

 

[SEL]

Absolutely wholeheartedly agree with this! Credit where it is due though, the BHSA have actually clearly taken the right disciplinary action against a relatively wealthy and influential hunt. That is good news to me because it signals that for whatever reason, there really is now some determination to deal with appalling behaviour, whoever is involved. The BHSA made the right and only possible decision. It's not much but it is a whole world of improvement on previous governance and discipline.

And for those of you who love genuine trail hunting I hope this is a start in weeding out those hunts who ignore the law.

 

[Millionwords]

Looks as though the footage originated from a WhatsApp group and that the new governing body have known about it for at least a month if hunting leaks is correct.

Not sure how to post a link, but it's the first news item on the hunting leaks news page.

I've never seen this page before! Interesting reading.

https://huntingleaks.is/news/

 

[Clodagh]

I wondered if the footage came from the WhatsApp that was found when they have seized phones? Which would be quite ‘funny’ in a sort of way.

 

[Clodagh]

And very, very poor that the powers that be did nothing until it was outed to the media.

 

[palo1]

I’m curious what the actual impact of not being a bhsa member cos you got chucked out is?

Insurance is possible for hunting outside the BHSA but, having been kicked out of the BHSA, if that wasn't disclosed would make you liable to a fraud conviction and if disclosed, likely to make insurance extremely difficult if not impossible!

Not being a member of the BHSA would put a hunt in the ranks of pirate packs - unregistered and therefore looked upon with some suspicion and with no formal 'legitimacy'. As a hunt, removal from the BHSA would mean also that hound breeding would not be registered and that would hurt whoever is in charge of that. It is very symbolic and status related as well as making life difficult in practical terms.

ETA - I was talking to my neighbour about this and we both said that we have had experience of pirate packs that are acting entirely within the law and in fact their manners and behaviour are far better than packs like the AVH. I do also know of hunts who have muttered in the past about working outside the MFHA as was. It is possible...

 

[Sandstone1]

The people involved should go to prison.

 

[Koweyka]

Absolutely wholeheartedly agree with this! Credit where it is due though, the BHSA have actually clearly taken the right disciplinary action against a relatively wealthy and influential hunt. That is good news to me because it signals that for whatever reason, there really is now some determination to deal with appalling behaviour, whoever is involved. The BHSA made the right and only possible decision. It's not much but it is a whole world of improvement on previous governance and discipline.

They sat on the footage for well over a month and hoped it would never come to light, would have more respect if they booted them out in December when this happened.

 

[Koweyka]

Harry Mayo is the best sab ever ….

“The Avon Vale 6” EXPOSED – Hunting Leaks

 

[SilverLinings]

Yes, I had been pleasantly surprised when this came out that they had reacted so quickly and so decisively, but now it's really disappointing, especially as we have no way of knowing how they would have punished (or not) the hunt if the footage hadn't been made public and forced them to do something. I hope they were planning to boot the hunt out anyway (when they found out), but even if that's true many people will be very sceptical at best.

 

[Quigleyandme]

Hopefully there was a formal investigation with a right of reply which could have taken some weeks to complete and that is why the governing body has only taken this decisive action now but then again…

 

[Sossigpoker]

Yes, I had been pleasantly surprised when this came out that they had reacted so quickly and so decisively, but now it's really disappointing, especially as we have no way of knowing how they would have punished (or not) the hunt if the footage hadn't been made public and forced them to do something. I hope they were planning to boot the hunt out anyway (when they found out), but even if that's true many people will be very sceptical at best.

They only reacted when it hit the national news. They've known about it for over a month.

 

[palo1]

All terrier work conducted by hunts has now been suspended pending a review. I think this is a good thing even though terrier work is legal. It is disappointing that the BHSA waited to take action on the AVH, really disappointing but they must know that this will now be common knowledge and that it is vital to act quickly.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The BHSA really are rattled. About time. Though rather than 'advise' hunts not to conduct terrier work, they should have ordered them not to.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they had been sitting on the AVH video for a month, hoping that it would go away/no one would find out, rather than taking any action.

 

[AmyMay]

All terrier work conducted by hunts has now been suspended pending a review. I think this is a good thing even though terrier work is legal. It is disappointing that the BHSA waited to take action on the AVH, really disappointing but they must know that this will now be common knowledge and that it is vital to act quickly.

It says advises not to use terriers. Not that terrier work is suspended.

 

[Sossigpoker]

The BHSA really are rattled. About time. Though rather than 'advise' hunts not to conduct terrier work, they should have ordered them not to.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they had been sitting on the AVH video for a month, hoping that it would go away/no one would find out, rather than taking any action.

View attachment 107512

That's exactly what they've done.

 

[palo1]

It says advises not to use terriers. Not that terrier work is suspended.

Yes, you are right. Sorry. I read this after I had had a message saying that terrier work had been suspended. Hmm.

 

[lizziebell]

I find it interesting that the hunting community are being very quiet about this incident, despite its national news coverage. In any other equestrian sport, the equestrian community are the first to condemn wrongful behaviour and mistreatment of animals within that sport/ environment. Therefore you’d think if you were a clean boot hunt, you’d want to condemn the actions of the AVH, distance yourself from that behaviour and make it clear you only trial hunt ……...in my opinion silence speaks volumes about the hunt community and how they conduct themselves!

 

[Abacus]

I find it interesting that the hunting community are being very quiet about this incident, despite its national news coverage. In any other equestrian sport, the equestrian community are the first to condemn wrongful behaviour and mistreatment of animals within that sport/ environment. Therefore you’d think if you were a clean boot hunt, you’d want to condemn the actions of the AVH, distance yourself from that behaviour and make it clear you only trial hunt ……...in my opinion silence speaks volumes about the hunt community and how they conduct themselves!

Perhaps with recent arrests and prior to charges and trials, they consider that it’s wise not to comment at this stage. However damning the video may be, the legal process needs to work and other hunts are not involved or responsible for this one, whatever they might be doing themselves. Except the B&B draghunt which has taken some action.

 

[Sandstone1]

This just proves to me that the whole kick people get out of hunting is the kill. All the talk of watching hounds work, thrill of the chase, ride across country, social side, pest, control, tradition etc etc is all absolute complete * £**% &s. They just like killing things. Why not be honest about it. The truth is out.

 

[sakura]

I’ve been vocally against hunting all my life, but no one has done as much for my cause as the hunting community themselves

 

[Sandstone1]

I’ve been vocally against hunting all my life, but no one has done as much for my cause as the hunting community themselves

Yes they have completely confirmed all my long held thoughts and observations on them.

 

[palo1]

I find it interesting that the hunting community are being very quiet about this incident, despite its national news coverage. In any other equestrian sport, the equestrian community are the first to condemn wrongful behaviour and mistreatment of animals within that sport/ environment. Therefore you’d think if you were a clean boot hunt, you’d want to condemn the actions of the AVH, distance yourself from that behaviour and make it clear you only trial hunt ……...in my opinion silence speaks volumes about the hunt community and how they conduct themselves!

There has been absolute unanimous condemnation of the AVH within the hunting community; even the BBC commented on that this morning! But there is a legal process pending. There is no sense in which I think anyone wants to excuse this vile behaviour. Trail hunting here today was conducted as usual, with trails laid and an invitation to all bystanders to ask questions, follow, film etc. Scent wasn't great so it gave many of us time to talk about this. Everyone I spoke to was simply appalled and relieved that the AVH are finished. I think that in part because of social media, many people live in an echo chamber so it is easy to simply see what you get rather than a bigger picture or more varied views. This morning we had a meet near a village and not a single person has indicated anything other than good manners and support to both the hunt as an entity and individual riders hacking to or from the meet. That doesn't mean that I don't realise that some people will have been questioning the legitimacy of trail hunting or actively wishing that we were banned; I am just reporting what I have experienced. It is possible, entirely possible for me and many others to trail hunt legally, safely and with consideration for other people and their views, even with incidents like that at the AVH; we are not all the same just because we are engaged in trail hunting (or not, in fact in the case of the AVH).

 

[AmyMay]

This just proves to me that the whole kick people get out of hunting is the kill. All the talk of watching hounds work, thrill of the chase, ride across country, social side, pest, control, tradition etc etc is all absolute complete * £**% &s. They just like killing things. Why not be honest about it. The truth is out.

I disagree actually. In the most part people who follow hounds really are just after a fun day out across the country.

 

[suestowford]

It's clear from Palo's posts that is is possible to trail hunt in a responsible manner. Which raises the question, why do some hunts find it so impossible? Is it the nature of their area, or the landowners' wishes, or the hunt subscribers' demands, or a desperate clinging on to tradition? Maybe it's all of those things.

 

[SilverLinings]

@Palo, I would be happy to trail hunt again if I could find a pack locally (I don't think I live anywhere near you) who behaved in the way you described, but no luck sadly. If all the packs had grown up, lost their arrogance and followed the rules in the way you describe then the future of (legal) hunting wouldn't be in such dire straits. It clearly can be done, it just appears to be the minority of packs who are doing it. I think many of us are hoping that the latest incident will be the 'big thing' that puts a stop to the BHSA enabling the badly behaved hunts to keep breaking the law and killing foxes (and other wildlife and pets), but sadly I am very sceptical.

 

[SilverLinings]

It's clear from Palo's posts that is is possible to trail hunt in a responsible manner. Which raises the question, why do some hunts find it so impossible? Is it the nature of their area, or the landowners' wishes, or the hunt subscribers' demands, or a desperate clinging on to tradition? Maybe it's all of those things.

I would suggest it's strong leadership from people with dubious morals who whip up support by concentrating on the 'tradition' aspect, and encourage people to feel like they are in a persecuted minority so it is their 'right' to fight back and continue in their old (illegal) ways.

A few of them are probably just thugs though, and in another walk of life would still be regularly breaking the law it just wouldn't involve foxes.

 

[Tiddlypom]

No holds barred piece in The Times quoting the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead on foxhunting crime. He says that there is a "significant criminal hunting scene. I am not saying it’s all hunts, but it is common.”

He wants to encourage police forces to work with hunt monitors.

Illegal foxhunting is still prolific, says police chief

Illegal foxhunting is “prolific in UK” and the police have “much more to do” in tackling it, the national police spokesman on the crime has said. Chief superi

www.thetimes.co.uk

Illegal foxhunting is “prolific in UK” and the police have “much more to do” in tackling it, the national police spokesman on the crime has said.

Chief superintendent Matt Longman, the commander for Plymouth, made the comments after a video was leaked showing members of a hunt digging foxes out of a den before the animals were chased by hounds.

He tweeted: “Deliberately killing a fox with a pack of hounds is illegal, wrong and prolific in the UK. National experts will offer support to investigating forces to raise the game of UK policing. Much more to do.”


Longman, who is the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead on foxhunting crime, told The Times he wanted police forces to work with the “volunteers” who monitored hunts so they could learn how to provide the kind of evidence, such as unedited and time-stamped footage, that could lead to successful prosecutions.

 

[SEL]

I disagree actually. In the most part people who follow hounds really are just after a fun day out across the country.

Absolutely and a lot more would join in if they knew it really was a trail hunt

 

[palo1]

It's clear from Palo's posts that is is possible to trail hunt in a responsible manner. Which raises the question, why do some hunts find it so impossible? Is it the nature of their area, or the landowners' wishes, or the hunt subscribers' demands, or a desperate clinging on to tradition? Maybe it's all of those things.

I think it is a combination of things tbh. The Hunting Act caused HUGE resentment and culturally in some hunting circles that remains; there is a sense of injustice which some folk simply cannot accept. Other hunts have felt they have way too much to lose to break the law and have worked, not without difficulty, to adapt. Ours is like that; we have had a series of forward looking huntsmen and masters who have somehow realised that maintaining our hunting community, with as traditional format as possible within the law is the only possible way. Some of the older people find it hard but are happy to follow hounds as long as the trails are decent and there is considerable skill in laying a trail so that you are not, in fact, drag hunting. Some landowners only want traditional fox hunting on their land, some are ambivalent and tolerate trail hunting as long as problem foxes are dealt with. Most subscribers that I have met over the years simply want to follow hounds across country that they have followed hounds over for aeons. I have NEVER personally met anyone that either hated foxes or enjoyed killing anything so the trope that hunters (pre and post ban) are bloodthirsty killers/psychpaths/vile human beings doesn't land at all. I suspect that where hunts were previously wealthy or fashionable, there would have been less incentive to adapt over the years. Hunts like mine, where most people have jobs in the public sector, know that illegal hunting cannot work for people who will not and cannot afford to risk their jobs/professional reputations for hunting.

At the same time, I do know people, many people who still reject the idea that hunting foxes with hounds is not an effective way of managing them. Those people obviously think the law is a farce but that doesn't mean they are prepared to break it. There are many people who simply will not talk about the issue; they feel their views are taboo or that they do not want to get involved in the debate in any way. Their thoughts are their own and not widely known...