Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Amirah]

Well goodness me. How is it in any way anthropomorphic to suggest that an animal chased and ripped apart by a pack of dogs feels terror?

 

[Koweyka]

Well goodness me. How is it in any way anthropomorphic to suggest that an animal chased and ripped apart by a pack of dogs feels terror?

I have heard fox hunters try and justify what they do by saying the foxes enjoy being chased by hounds.....

 

[palo1]

Well goodness me. How is it in any way anthropomorphic to suggest that an animal chased and ripped apart by a pack of dogs feels terror?

There is a great deal of research around what happens when one animal is hunted by another; I suggest you look that up. There is also a great deal of research about the importance of trophic cascades in ecosystem and species health - that is easily found too.

I have certainly never suggested that one animal 'enjoys' being hunted by another and whilst I supported fox hunting before the ban I have, since the ban hunted with trail hound packs that hunt within the law. The law itself is dire and has had no benefit whatsoever to foxes or other animals but that is not what is being discussed here.

I know that anti-hunters feel incredibly strongly about this issue but very rarely do any of them produce any research which is professional, peer reviewed or in any way scientifically validated to demonstrate that trail hunting has no benefit. The issue which is raised is regarding the Animal Welfare laws where the individual animal is always the priority. Where individual foxes are concerned, if they are killed by illegal hunting that is certainly an issue because of the illegality of that act. I have never contested that at all.

What I have argued, absolutely consistently is that hunting within the law is beneficial to our ecosystem in a number of ways (which can be referenced and demonstrated by independent scientific research) AND that pre-ban fox hunting cannot be proved, scientifically to have been more cruel than any other form of fox management; this was clearly the position taken by the Burns report at the time of the Hunting Act. Prior to the Act fox hunting had demonstrable species wide and ecosystem benefits. There are many, many types of hunting carried out globally and ecologists and environmentalists have a wide range of views about them but the form of hunting with hounds in this country pre the Hunting Act replicated an entirely 'natural' form of hunting albeit controlled to a degree because of the constraints of agriculture etc in the UK countryside. That form of hunting or predation is very widely understood to have species and ecosystems benefits and work is being carried out to try to restore those systems which allow for that in order to improve the ecological health of important natural systems.

Most of the alternative methods of fox control remain in place in the UK today in spite of real, provable concerns about the welfare implications of those methods - the vast majority of which are entirely ignored by anti-hunters because of the extraordinary inability to accept the hypocrisy of that position where it is ok to snare, gas, shoot, trap or poison a fox at any time of year regardless of their health, age or breeding status, yet not ok to use hounds where that method has not been proven more cruel and which also utilised the natural method of hunting to effectively 'target' old, weak or sick animals outside the breeding season.

It is accepted that foxes need to be controlled and that usually this involves a method intended to be lethal. Of course, some animal welfare activists would contest that but it is not generally widely contested and lethal fox control is NOT a legal issue (as long as it is not through hunting with more than 2 dogs/hounds).

I am appalled by that situation - for the sake of wildlife generally which has had no favours done for it whatsoever. A specific, calculable example of this would be problems faced by curlew for example - so incredibly close to extinction in this country and which face their most significant threat from predation by foxes: see this: ''Predators are having a major impact. Curlew eggs and chicks are predated by mammals and birds. This is a natural process, but some of these predators – such as foxes and crows - are more abundant in the UK than anywhere else in Europe and there’s simply too much predation for the curlew population to sustain.'' Eurasian curlew recovery | WWT . The Hunting Act has done nothing for the health of foxes in the UK either; as an iconic mammal in this country that is very, very sad and indicative, to me of a total disconnect and disengagement from understanding this amazing creature. I also have great concerns about where this approach to wildlife management is likely to lead and so continue to support the benefits that Trail Hunting has.

I would be really interested to see the research or evidence for your position though I have heard ad nauseam the anthropomorphising about 'How would you feel to be chased to death' arguments which reveal a considerable level of ignorance about how foxes and other species are naturally evolved to cope with that and about both Trail hunting and pre-ban fox hunting.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Or a trail is laid to try and fool the general public in to thinking hunts are hunting within the law and following said trail when in fact they are illegally hunting fox? ie a smokescreen.

From the Director of the Master of Foxhounds himself, as spoken on one of the infamous training webinars aimed at masters.

‘Some people say well, what’s the point in laying trails, well I think it’s fairly self explanatory, if you haven’t laid a trail on a daily basis you’re not going to be covered by the insurance.’

Laying trails is all about the insurance cover, folks. And here were some of us naively presuming that trails were laid post ban so that hounds had a legal scent to follow...

 

[palo1]

Well the more you comment on this case @Tiddlypom the less likely there is to be a legal outcome but what you have quoted is taken from a much larger body of words that contextualises that statement of course. Again, you don't address any of the issues I have raised but that is not surprising really and there is room and time for that on another post of course.

 

[Sandstone1]

There is a great deal of research around what happens when one animal is hunted by another; I suggest you look that up. There is also a great deal of research about the importance of trophic cascades in ecosystem and species health - that is easily found too.

I have certainly never suggested that one animal 'enjoys' being hunted by another and whilst I supported fox hunting before the ban I have, since the ban hunted with trail hound packs that hunt within the law. The law itself is dire and has had no benefit whatsoever to foxes or other animals but that is not what is being discussed here.

I know that anti-hunters feel incredibly strongly about this issue but very rarely do any of them produce any research which is professional, peer reviewed or in any way scientifically validated to demonstrate that trail hunting has no benefit. The issue which is raised is regarding the Animal Welfare laws where the individual animal is always the priority. Where individual foxes are concerned, if they are killed by illegal hunting that is certainly an issue because of the illegality of that act. I have never contested that at all.

What I have argued, absolutely consistently is that hunting within the law is beneficial to our ecosystem in a number of ways (which can be referenced and demonstrated by independent scientific research) AND that pre-ban fox hunting cannot be proved, scientifically to have been more cruel than any other form of fox management; this was clearly the position taken by the Burns report at the time of the Hunting Act. Prior to the Act fox hunting had demonstrable species wide and ecosystem benefits. There are many, many types of hunting carried out globally and ecologists and environmentalists have a wide range of views about them but the form of hunting with hounds in this country pre the Hunting Act replicated an entirely 'natural' form of hunting albeit controlled to a degree because of the constraints of agriculture etc in the UK countryside. That form of hunting or predation is very widely understood to have species and ecosystems benefits and work is being carried out to try to restore those systems which allow for that in order to improve the ecological health of important natural systems.

Most of the alternative methods of fox control remain in place in the UK today in spite of real, provable concerns about the welfare implications of those methods - the vast majority of which are entirely ignored by anti-hunters because of the extraordinary inability to accept the hypocrisy of that position where it is ok to snare, gas, shoot, trap or poison a fox at any time of year regardless of their health, age or breeding status, yet not ok to use hounds where that method has not been proven more cruel and which also utilised the natural method of hunting to effectively 'target' old, weak or sick animals outside the breeding season.

It is accepted that foxes need to be controlled and that usually this involves a method intended to be lethal. Of course, some animal welfare activists would contest that but it is not generally widely contested and lethal fox control is NOT a legal issue (as long as it is not through hunting with more than 2 dogs/hounds).

I am appalled by that situation - for the sake of wildlife generally which has had no favours done for it whatsoever. A specific, calculable example of this would be problems faced by curlew for example - so incredibly close to extinction in this country and which face their most significant threat from predation by foxes: see this: ''Predators are having a major impact. Curlew eggs and chicks are predated by mammals and birds. This is a natural process, but some of these predators – such as foxes and crows - are more abundant in the UK than anywhere else in Europe and there’s simply too much predation for the curlew population to sustain.'' Eurasian curlew recovery | WWT . The Hunting Act has done nothing for the health of foxes in the UK either; as an iconic mammal in this country that is very, very sad and indicative, to me of a total disconnect and disengagement from understanding this amazing creature. I also have great concerns about where this approach to wildlife management is likely to lead and so continue to support the benefits that Trail Hunting has.

I would be really interested to see the research or evidence for your position though I have heard ad nauseam the anthropomorphising about 'How would you feel to be chased to death' arguments which reveal a considerable level of ignorance about how foxes and other species are naturally evolved to cope with that and about both Trail hunting and pre-ban fox hunting.

Can you just get your head round the fact that hunting foxes with hounds is illegal?
It has been so for years, just because many hunts bend the rules does not make it right, you can spout as much **** as you like. Its a fact.
Like it or not fox hunting has had its day. Its not going to come back. Trail hunting will also go and you can blame the hunts that bend and break the law for that.

 

[Koweyka]

Can you just get your head round the fact that hunting foxes with hounds is illegal?
It has been so for years, just because many hunts bend the rules does not make it right, you can spout as much **** as you like. Its a fact.
Like it or not fox hunting has had its day. Its not going to come back. Trail hunting will also go and you can blame the hunts that bend and break the law for that.

Hallelujah !

 

[Koweyka]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/feb/17/hunting.ruralaffairs?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I watched a fox running for it’s life from a so called trail hunt, his mouth was hanging open his eyes were bulging, he was six feet away from a safe haven in a badger sett when the lead hound caught him, the second hound got him around the throat, they played tug of war with him until his neck/spine snapped and his torso twisted, the huntsman was watching it all unfold and did nothing to call them off.....that’s how he got away with a conviction because he didn’t encourage them on, he didn’t need to, the hounds were on the “trail”, it’s another facet to the smokescreen. By the time the body was recovered the huntsman had legged it, I have a photo of this poor foxes face and the terror is there for all to see. He wasn’t an old, sickly fox he was young and in his prime according to the post mortem.

The photo is far too graphic to show, but I don’t need any studies to tell me this fox was terrified and you trying to claim otherwise by linking studies trying to claim otherwise, it shows just out of touch hunters are.

 

[palo1]

Can you just get your head round the fact that hunting foxes with hounds is illegal?
It has been so for years, just because many hunts bend the rules does not make it right, you can spout as much **** as you like. Its a fact.
Like it or not fox hunting has had its day. Its not going to come back. Trail hunting will also go and you can blame the hunts that bend and break the law for that.

Clearly you haven't read what I have written. I have made it perfectly clear on numerous occasions that I am totally aware of the Hunting Act and that hunting foxes with a pack of hounds is illegal.

 

[palo1]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/feb/17/hunting.ruralaffairs?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I watched a fox running for it’s life from a so called trail hunt, his mouth was hanging open his eyes were bulging, he was six feet away from a safe haven in a badger sett when the lead hound caught him, the second hound got him around the throat, they played tug of war with him until his neck/spine snapped and his torso twisted, the huntsman was watching it all unfold and did nothing to call them off.....that’s how he got away with a conviction because he didn’t encourage them on, he didn’t need to, the hounds were on the “trail”, it’s another facet to the smokescreen. By the time the body was recovered the huntsman had legged it, I have a photo of this poor foxes face and the terror is there for all to see. He wasn’t an old, sickly fox he was young and in his prime according to the post mortem.

The photo is far too graphic to show, but I don’t need any studies to tell me this fox was terrified and you trying to claim otherwise by linking studies trying to claim otherwise, it shows just out of touch hunters are.

If what you describe is exactly as you describe it then it wasn't illegal in any case; you are allowed to hunt a fox with 2 hounds or dogs. That is pretty dire in fact exactly for the reasons you have stated, where a pack of hounds would despatch a fox far more quickly and humanely if that was legal which is not.

In response to the article you have posted - which was produced in 1999, more recent peer reviewed research explores the fear response in animals in more depth here: Current Biology (2019) Ecology of fear - ScienceDirect and also here: Journal of Applied Ecology (2020) Hunting for fear: Innovating management of human-wildlife conflicts | Request PDF (researchgate.net)

There is of course a very large body of work on this subject if you are truly interested in that.

 

[Kipper's Dick]

Can somebody tell me where the laughing emoji is please, your response is certainly worthy of it...

It’s clear you derive some sort of pleasure in fox hunting, it’s been evident throughout this thread, however you dodge direct questions and you deflect, thankfully the vets, the ecologists and environmentalists I work with and are present in the fields have the polar opposite to you views to you and your ilk You are in the minority. Your hobby is dying on its feet and it’s about time, no fox, hare, deer, stag, pet cat or dog should ever lose its life because of an outdated pass time.

You have to stop the killing, it’s as simple as that.

There is no law against the killing of this species. Are you happy with the methods currently being used? They can be killed by shooting, they can be caught in snares, culled at cubbing earths and they can be killed by terriers. There is no closed season and no requirement to keep records. Since the hunting ban, a higher number of foxes are now likely to be shot (and not always accurately). Are you in agreement with these methods of fox control?

 

[Koweyka]

If what you describe is exactly as you describe it then it wasn't illegal in any case; you are allowed to hunt a fox with 2 hounds or dogs. That is pretty dire in fact exactly for the reasons you have stated, where a pack of hounds would despatch a fox far more quickly and humanely if that was legal which is not.

In response to the article you have posted - which was produced in 1999, more recent peer reviewed research explores the fear response in animals in more depth here: Current Biology (2019) Ecology of fear - ScienceDirect and also here: Journal of Applied Ecology (2020) Hunting for fear: Innovating management of human-wildlife conflicts | Request PDF (researchgate.net)

There is of course a very large body of work on this subject if you are truly interested in that.

Sigh, it was a pack of hounds, a very well known pack they were investigated by the police and for reasons I explained and you clearly ignored the hunt got away with it.

I joined this thread because of you, because you were so clearly trying to defend the indefensible, you do not come across well, your arguments are flawed, you clearly believe that killing sentient creatures is acceptable, and judging by some other comments in response to you the majority of people have you pretty well worked out.

You twist arguments for your own narrative, bringing up Curlews, their decline is primarily loss of habitat, however when you flood what is their natural habitat with game species for the equally vile shooting brigade to draw in more so called “predators”

You pretend to be concerned about conservation to justify the destruction of another native species.

Maybe some of these ”peers” you constantly quote would actually like to come out with monitors and sabs and witness what we see happening, then they can look us in the eye and tell us these creatures feel no fear.

In fact why don’t you come out ”with the other side” and see what goes on, I am sure it can be arranged and then and only then will you be qualified to preach to people that see the myth of trail hunting for what is indeed a smokescreen.

 

[Koweyka]

There is no law against the killing of this species. Are you happy with the methods currently being used? They can be killed by shooting, they can be caught in snares, culled at cubbing earths and they can be killed by terriers. There is no closed season and no requirement to keep records. Since the hunting ban, a higher number of foxes are now likely to be shot (and not always accurately). Are you in agreement with these methods of fox control?

Snares should be banned immediately, not only do targeted species suffer horribly, none targeted species suffer immeasurably as well, in the last few months alone several cats, a dog, an owl and birds of prey have been found in snares, how many other animals have died that haven’t been discovered by members of the public.

Culled at cubbing earths WTAF everything you stated there is revolting.

Far too many gun happy (insert your own expletive) get a kick out of lamping etc it’s utterly repugnant and as you say has no closed season, I know some MP’s are actively looking into this very issue.

I know many many farmers who don’t want to kill foxes, they understand the value foxes have to the ecosystem, the way the fox population is plummeting especially in the countryside it will come that foxes have protected status and that can’t come soon enough, that will really throw a spanner in the works for hunting/shooting and snaring then.

 

[palo1]

Snares should be banned immediately, not only do targeted species suffer horribly, none targeted species suffer immeasurably as well, in the last few months alone several cats, a dog, an owl and birds of prey have been found in snares, how many other animals have died that haven’t been discovered by members of the public.

Culled at cubbing earths WTAF everything you stated there is revolting.

Far too many gun happy (insert your own expletive) get a kick out of lamping etc it’s utterly repugnant and as you say has no closed season, I know some MP’s are actively looking into this very issue.

I know many many farmers who don’t want to kill foxes, they understand the value foxes have to the ecosystem, the way the fox population is plummeting especially in the countryside it will come that foxes have protected status and that can’t come soon enough, that will really throw a spanner in the works for hunting/shooting and snaring then.

What means would you advise for fox control Kowyka? What do you think that a complete ban on trail hunting would achieve in animal welfare terms? How much impact would that have on wild animal welfare? Do you have any numbers to support your view? How would you deal with the issue of fox control if all means of killing foxes were made illegal (which is what I think you would prefer/advocate)?

I have been anti-hunting in the past and have had friends that were active sabs (at University many years ago). I haven't had direct contact with sabs for many years and would not wish to do that now but thank you for the offer, if that was genuine. I don't think I am 'pretending' anything; I try really hard to be honest in all fairness. The peers I refer to are not people I know but independent scientists and scientific journals - of which I have no knowledge of their views about hunting. Like anyone will in a debate I acknowledge that there is some information that is contested but at the same time I am able to produce independent , mainstream and very well respected research to back up my own views. I never see anything really that contradicts that information from anti-hunters/sabs.

I am aware that curlews are suffering hugely from habitat loss - particularly since the 1970s. They were healthy in number at that time, along with fox hunting but the two are not necessarily directly linked and I wouldn't suggest that. However, foxes absolutely are responsible in part for predation on curlews; do you advocate that curlews should be allowed to suffer unlimited fox predation which increasingly threatens their survival so that foxes are not deliberately killed even though foxes are very numerous and the law does not prevent them from being killed by many means? That is what I have understood from you in relation to the lethal control of foxes; if that does not happen (which I think is your preference) then a number of vulnerable species would suffer. I am confused about your logic and values on that.

ETA - in relation to traps (not snares) those also kill and trap a variety of other animals and Chris Packham, a leading anti hunt campaigner has also been associated with their use by the RSPB which he is closely associated with.

 

[palo1]

Sigh, it was a pack of hounds, a very well known pack they were investigated by the police and for reasons I explained and you clearly ignored the hunt got away with it.

I joined this thread because of you, because you were so clearly trying to defend the indefensible, you do not come across well, your arguments are flawed, you clearly believe that killing sentient creatures is acceptable, and judging by some other comments in response to you the majority of people have you pretty well worked out.

You twist arguments for your own narrative, bringing up Curlews, their decline is primarily loss of habitat, however when you flood what is their natural habitat with game species for the equally vile shooting brigade to draw in more so called “predators”

You pretend to be concerned about conservation to justify the destruction of another native species.

Maybe some of these ”peers” you constantly quote would actually like to come out with monitors and sabs and witness what we see happening, then they can look us in the eye and tell us these creatures feel no fear.

In fact why don’t you come out ”with the other side” and see what goes on, I am sure it can be arranged and then and only then will you be qualified to preach to people that see the myth of trail hunting for what is indeed a smokescreen.

Sorry I didn't include this in my first reply but no-one is suggesting that hunted animals don't feel fear. Have you read those articles? Those scientists are exploring what the role of fear is in the wider ecosystem and how animals adapt as a species and individually to living with fear. Animals that are hunted by any predator feel fear of course. Do you plan to stop foxes predating on rabbits and mice so that they don't feel fear or experience death by direct predation? I suspect that you feel that humans should not have any role to play in animal death but sadly that is impossible on any level; even as the very strictest vegan you would be responsible for the effects of being part of the ecosystem and that would involve, at some point, negative effects on other animals.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Did I honestly just read a poster above me genuinely suggest that a pack of domestic dogs can effectively take the place of our extinct megafauna?

That is proper cloud-cuckoo land stuff.

 

[ycbm]

Sorry I didn't include this in my first reply but no-one is suggesting that hunted animals don't feel fear.

It's a very short leap from denying that foxes can feel human notions of fear, as you did earlier in this thread (see below) to believing that fox fear is somehow lesser than human fear.

But the document doesn't say that foxes are not capable of feeling fear at all...the document says that foxes don't experience human notions of fear. The two are different.

 

[Koweyka]

Why do you think fox numbers need controlling ? I am getting confused that you say trail hunting controls their numbers....how is that if you are following a trail ...

As for the fox scaring rabbits when he hunts for survival how can you even compare that to a pack of hounds and 40 odd horses chasing him relentlessly until his heart bursts or the hounds rip him apart when he is still alive....

 

[palo1]

Did I honestly just read a poster above me genuinely suggest that a pack of domestic dogs can effectively take the place of our extinct megafauna?

That is proper cloud-cuckoo land stuff.

Er - no?!! But hounds have fulfilled that role in part for several centuries.

 

[palo1]

It's a very short leap from denying that foxes can feel human notions of fear, as you did earlier in this thread (see below) to believing that fox fear is somehow lesser than human fear.

But no one has made that leap and I haven't expressed personal opinons about hounds/hunting and/or the fear of foxes - just presented scientific information about the nature of and role of fear in animal's lives. Just stop anthropomorphising for a moment...

 

[palo1]

Why do you think fox numbers need controlling ? I am getting confused that you say trail hunting controls their numbers....how is that if you are following a trail ...

As for the fox scaring rabbits when he hunts for survival how can you even compare that to a pack of hounds and 40 odd horses chasing him relentlessly until his heart bursts or the hounds rip him apart when he is still alive....

I never said trail hunting controls fox numbers. As for the hunting scenario you have presented, it suggests that you have never actually been near a fox hunted by hounds. Enough said, for me at least!!

 

[Koweyka]

I never said trail hunting controls fox numbers. As for the hunting scenario you have presented, it suggests that you have never actually been near a fox hunted by hounds. Enough said, for me at least!!

You have now utterly lost the plot.

 

[ycbm]

But no one has made that leap and I haven't expressed personal opinons about hounds/hunting and/or the fear of foxes - just presented scientific information about the nature of and role of fear in animal's lives. Just stop anthropomorphising for a moment...

How about you stop ignoring the fundamental fact that the hormones which create fear in a fox are the same ones as create fear, using exactly the same mechanism, as in a human?

The more research that is done into domestic animals the more obvious it is to me that all mammals share a great deal of the ability to feel emotion that a human has, they just lack the ability to express it in a way that humans can't ignore.

I've seen a fox running for its life as a pack closed in. It looked scared to me and I have absolutely no reason to assume that it wasn't.
.

 

[Koweyka]

A “Few” posts ago you stated this ....

In relation to trail hunting - one of the benefits of trail hunting is that the presence of hounds in the countryside disturbs and disrupts foxes in a sustainable way that the existing ecosystem more widely can cope with naturally.

So what do you mean by this ? Katy Perry could write a song about you ...we kill then we don’t ....we chase then we won’t....it wrong yes we know, but we’ll pretend we don’t know....

You literally contradict yourself in every post, I think ....but probably won’t have more respect for you if you admitted that you enjoy foxes being killed by packs of hounds, however considering you don’t recognise my description of hunting I am actually wondering now if you are just a sad old lady living in a total fantasy land and that’s why you come out with such piffle.

Trail hunting for the majority of packs is a myth, an excuse to kill, there is a reason drag packs don’t get sabbed, we actually get invited to come and watch the drag pack operate. But that doesn’t fit the pro hunt narrative does it.

 

[palo1]

How about you stop ignoring the fundamental fact that the hormones which create fear in a fox are the same ones as create fear, using exactly the same mechanism, as in a human?

The more research that is done into domestic animals the more obvious it is to me that all mammals share a great deal of the ability to feel emotion as a human, they just lack the ability to express it in a way that humans can't ignore.

I've seen a fox running for its life as a pack closed in. It looked scared to me and I have absolutely no reason to assume that it wasn't.
.

I am not ignoring that ycbm and I am aware of the hormones and response in the amygdyla of the mammalian brain. What scientists are saying is that fear has an important role to play in the life and health of individual animals and the species, that predated animals are evolved to cope with that response and that positive impacts on the species and ecosystem as a whole result from fear-influenced behaviour. I am not trying to get away from the fact that an individual animal feels fear at all however well they are adapted to that. I don't want my pet animals to feel fear and do what I can to avoid that but the situation with control of or our impact on wild animals is a different scenario and where do our attempts to reduce fear in wild animal individuals stop? Do we try to stop all predators from causing fear in all predated animals? That is not possible. Foxes who are shot or injured by other means will not only feel fear but also pain and great distress - I find it hard to stomach that that is a preferable risk/outcome than the entirely binary outcome of a hunted fox (pre ban hunted with hounds). I am certainly not convinced that a fox hunted and killed by 2 dogs is humane as there is a higher risk of that fox having a more prolonged death. There is certainly an evidenced and higher risk of injury and suffering from shooting, gassing and other currently legal method of fox killing.

 

[Koweyka]

Here is a really random thought, how about we as humans stop hunting animals full stop.

I and I am sure many more are struggling with what you are saying, you are expressing regret at foxes being killed by shooting and two dogs, incidentally the fox has to be shot instantly it is flushed out, the dogs cannot pursue....you think this is not humane but pursuing a fox with a pack of horses and hounds is humane ? You aren’t hunting for food, you aren’t hunting to survive you are hunting for fun. You make no sense.

 

[Kipper's Dick]

Snares should be banned immediately, not only do targeted species suffer horribly, none targeted species suffer immeasurably as well, in the last few months alone several cats, a dog, an owl and birds of prey have been found in snares, how many other animals have died that haven’t been discovered by members of the public.

Culled at cubbing earths WTAF everything you stated there is revolting.

Far too many gun happy (insert your own expletive) get a kick out of lamping etc it’s utterly repugnant and as you say has no closed season, I know some MP’s are actively looking into this very issue.

I know many many farmers who don’t want to kill foxes, they understand the value foxes have to the ecosystem, the way the fox population is plummeting especially in the countryside it will come that foxes have protected status and that can’t come soon enough, that will really throw a spanner in the works for hunting/shooting and snaring then.

I have huge issues with these methods, too. But is the fox population plummeting? Do you have references for this?

In a survey of Welsh farmers in 2013, 96% said that predation on lambs had an impact on their income. Seventy-five per cent said that they had lost more lambs to foxes since the hunting ban in 2005. Going back further, in 1999, according to one estimate, foxes cost sheep producers approx. £9.4 million. This is obviously counter-balanced by the benefits of having a healthy fox population, rabbit control for example. But, if farmers perceive a problem with foxes attacking livestock, they will take matters into their own hands. I can see farmers absolutely up in arms if they are restricted in this matter, and I can't see any government who would pass such a law in the near future. If they did, then fox control, and the methods used, would simply slide out of sight, in the privacy of farms and fields and woodland. Much like it is now, really.

 

[Dizzy socks]

But no one has made that leap and I haven't expressed personal opinons about hounds/hunting and/or the fear of foxes - just presented scientific information about the nature of and role of fear in animal's lives. Just stop anthropomorphising for a moment...

Would you mind presenting the scientific information again please - I can't seem to find it?

From my perspective, I don't see how a fox perspective of fear could be any less unpleasant than a human's perspective? The very purpose of fear *is* to be unpleasant, so as to essentially drive mechanisms to escape the danger. I also don't see how, if as you are suggesting, foxes feel fear differently, scientists could ever have measured that, either?

Througout history, people have criminally underestimated the emotional capacities of animals - this is undisputable. I feel that, on the back of that, perhaps instead of always assuming that animals lack emotions in a way which makes crueltly more palatable to us as people, we should perhaps start assuming the converse. It seems a far safer starting point to limit cruelty.

I just want to note I'm not currently adding anything to the debate of fox hunting as a whole, just the justification that foxes feel pain differently.

 

[palo1]

Here is a really random thought, how about we as humans stop hunting animals full stop.

I and I am sure many more are struggling with what you are saying, you are expressing regret at foxes being killed by shooting and two dogs, incidentally the fox has to be shot instantly it is flushed out, the dogs cannot pursue....you think this is not humane but pursuing a fox with a pack of horses and hounds is humane ? You aren’t hunting for food, you aren’t hunting to survive you are hunting for fun. You make no sense.

Sadly, when a fox is flushed to 2 dogs, it is not always simply shot instantly. The dogs certainly should not pursue but dogs can legally kill foxes in other ways although clearly there are ways that are legal under the Hunting Act that may be illegal under the Animal Welfare act. How on earth can many of those situations be enforced? I didn't quite mean to suggest that a fox flushed to guns would be pursued by those dogs. Legally you can take 2 lurchers for example and hunt a fox. That is not what I would care for but a farmer or landowner who had that opportunity and wanted rid of a fox, he can do that.

The Burns report - and I know you will be enraged by this, but it is primary report in this particular argument, did not conclude that hunting with hounds was any more cruel than any other method and there is a very clear and binary outcome to that method. Unlike many other methods of fox control. It is not realistic to assert that foxes dont' need controlling. The impact of no control of foxes would be pretty grim for them and for other wildlife and you should, if you care, be aware of that.

 

[Koweyka]

In 2013 Defra estimated that there were around 430,000 foxes in the UK however in 2018 this estimate had dropped to around 350,000, however at the rate the lampers all over the country are killing foxes and posing with 20 plus foxes they have killed in one night it’s a wonder there is any left. It has to be regulated, they aren’t professional marksmen and they probably maim and cause immense suffering.

Defra also put the levels of lambs killed by foxes at just 1% foxes may take sick lambs that have been abandoned, but rare to take a healthy one, they may also be seen to carry a dead one ....they have to eat. There was a study in Scotland that backed this up.

If the countryside if there are that many foxes in the countryside, why do hunts breed them .....why do they feed live Cubs to hounds, why do they have artificial earths .....