Hunting is in a spot of bother

[tallyho!]

I don’t have the answer to that I’m afraid but do you think it’s sustainable to keep on breeding and continuing in the current way? Lockdown has seen countless dogs abandoned and discarded, I’m not sure who’s that’s any different? We have to sort the dog mess out too. I never said it was easy but where there a will there’s a way. Don’t give up.

 

[paddy555]

Such as? These are working animals, not pets. Used to living in packs in kennels. Some maybe rehomed but not all. Where is their "place" then?

no they are certainly not pets and I suppose if the hunts cared so much for them they would retire them at their own premises for the rest of their lives or send them off to the people who puppy walked them but they don't.

I see the countryside alliance admitted 3000 were killed each year and welfare groups think the number is higher. So it is not as if they go on to live a cosy life after their working life is over. Once they get past their point of usefulness they get the chop.
It's fine saying the antis don't care about the lives of hounds but in fact the hunts don't either once their working life is over. Of course the hunts cannot do anything else except kill them but it is important to take into account large numbers are killed each year anyway.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The future of hound breeding is in the hands of hunting itself.

Demonstrate that you are not fox hunting and that any pack who continues to hunt illegally will be compulsorily disbanded, and there may be a future for hunting and for hounds.

Continue to ignore the widespread reality of illegal hunting and you sign their death warrants, as all hunting with hounds will be banned.

 

[tallyho!]

Maybe hunts should start thinking ahead and slow down breeding now. IF trail hunting is going to survive they are going to have to prove they are trail hunting.... Fox hunting has been illegal for years it has too stop.

That’s an incredibly valid point

I think probably at some point the pouting bottom lip of the hunting fraternity has to be ignored and society has to move on. It isn’t 1698 any longer and it’s nigh on time folk just came to terms with it all.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Would just like to point out, I would not be so concerned with employment within the hunting industry if all forms of hunting were banned (although this would obviously affect the livelihoods of many people and is a legitimate concern), but rather what happens to the tens of thousands of hounds? They can't simply be rehomed and would more than likely be pts.
Surely if we accept antis are in it for the purposes of saving animals then by saying they want to see all trail hunting banned, their argument falls flat on its face. What about the lives of hounds or do they not matter?

These dogs are culled by hunts themselves long before reaching the end of their natural lifespan so not sure how this could be considered a valid point?

 

[Jellymoon]

Errrr ok I don’t give half a hoot what you believe about me because you are completely wrong and are giving many people that do know me quite a giggle.

I was a member of this forum many years ago as I needed some advice about one of the many horses I own, some people were helpful and knowledgeable, I lost my log in details, though I wonder are you going to stalk all the other thousands of members on here and ask why they are here if they aren’t hunting ?

Doesn’t bother me at all if people on here hunt or not, what a silly thing to say.

Errrr ok I don’t give half a hoot what you believe about me because you are completely wrong and are giving many people that do know me quite a giggle.

I was a member of this forum many years ago as I needed some advice about one of the many horses I own, some people were helpful and knowledgeable, I lost my log in details, though I wonder are you going to stalk all the other thousands of members on here and ask why they are here if they aren’t hunting ?

oh sorry, I didn’t mean to cause confusion, I’m not at all bothered if people on this forum hunt or not, it’s just that the magazine is pro hunting. See this week’s issue for example - the hunting special. So when we post on the forum, it adds to the number of people/clicks who go on the magazine’s website. This makes it more attractive to advertisers, making the magazine more money. I was interested to see if you are actually a normal forum user, or someone who has simply logged on because you and your friends have seen there’s a debate about hunting and you want to have some ‘sport’ laughing at hunting folk. If you really care about animal welfare, I don’t think you would want to be adding to the coffers of a pro hunting magazine, one which has a whole article encouraging people to hunt.
And I still don’t believe you have ‘many’ horses!!

 

[Gallop_Away]

These dogs are culled by hunts themselves long before reaching the end of their natural lifespan so not sure how this could be considered a valid point?

It is a perfectly valid point. Antis are calling for an out right ban because they claim that they care about animals. But however way you dress it up, an outright ban WILL result in hounds needing to be pts. So why would they want to ban it to protect foxes but then indirectly result in the death of thousands of hounds? As I asked do they not matter to these people who claim they want to protect animals?

 

[Gallop_Away]

For what its worth i don't disagree that hunts need to ease up on what they are breeding, but I am talking about the tens of thousands of hounds that are already here!?

 

[CrunchieBoi]

It is a perfectly valid point. Antis are calling for an out right ban because they claim that they care about animals. But however way you dress it up, an outright ban WILL result in hounds needing to be pts. So why would they want to ban it to protect foxes but then indirectly result in the death of thousands of hounds? As I asked do they not matter to these people who claim they want to protect animals?

I suspect anyone with that view would simply argue that the dogs will be culled regardless so it doesn't really matter if they're culled at 1 or 5 years of age.

At the end of the day it's not antis who are continually breeding and culling them.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I suspect anyone with that view would simply argue that the dogs will be culled regardless so it doesn't really matter if they're culled at 1 or 5 years of age.

At the end of the day it's not antis who are continually breeding and culling them.

And equally a fox will probably get run over at some point....so what does that matter?

I don't agree with hunting foxes by the way and I hunt with a LEGAL trail hunt and a drag pack, but I'm just pointing out how hypocritical this view is.

 

[Miss_Millie]

What concerns me the most about the use of dogs, even if the hunt are genuinely legally trail hunting, is that surely these dogs have it bred into them to chase a fox or deer out of pure instinct? So it almost seems like a cheeky way of getting to fox hunt if they 'accidentally' come across one.

We have also seen how many times hounds have killed pets (domestic dogs and cats) or killed livestock. I was reading on a farming forum that a farmer banned the local hunt from his land after they left a trail of dead sheep across his field. I would not be able to live with myself if I was in any way involved with something like that happening, I truly don't understand how people continue to justify what seems to me, a huge risk.

At the end of the day, dogs are extremely unpredictable animals. 'Working' dogs may have a level of loyalty to their owner, but as many have pointed out they also aren't pets, they very much act on instinct and pack mentality. I've had enough close calls with aggressive domestic dogs, to feel that a whole pack of dogs loose, is a really bad idea.

I also personally think it is sad/wrong that they are bred for the purpose of hunting, to me it is exploitative that they are culled when they are no longer up to it. I don't like the attitude towards any animal that it is disposable/easily replaceable.

 

[ycbm]

What concerns me the most about the use of dogs, even if the hunt are genuinely legally trail hunting, is that surely these dogs have it bred into them to chase a fox or deer out of pure instinct? So it almost seems like a cheeky way of getting to fox hunt if they 'accidentally' come across one.

We have also seen how many times hounds have killed pets (domestic dogs and cats) or killed livestock. I was reading on a farming forum that a farmer banned the local hunt from his land after they left a trail of dead sheep across his field. I would not be able to live with myself if I was in any way involved with something like that happening, I truly don't understand how people continue to justify what seems to me, a huge risk.

At the end of the day, dogs are extremely unpredictable animals. 'Working' dogs may have a level of loyalty to their owner, but as many have pointed out they also aren't pets, they very much act on instinct and pack mentality. I've had enough close calls with aggressive domestic dogs, to feel that a whole pack of dogs loose, is a really bad idea.

I also personally think it is sad/wrong that they are bred for the purpose of hunting, to me it is exploitative that they are culled when they are no longer up to it. I don't like the attitude towards any animal that it is disposable/easily replaceable.

Drag hunts use fox hounds and have no problems stopping them from chasing foxes or deer. It's about training and how the trail is laid. I have seen a lamb killed but it was a bad decision to lay a tail through a field with lambs in it.
.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Drag hunts use fox hounds and have no problems stopping them from chasing foxes or deer. It's about training and how the trail is laid. I have seen a lamb killed but it was a bad decision to lay a tail through a field with lambs in it.
.

So presumably the dog killed the lamb out of instinct? Thus acting on instinct, regardless of training.

 

[Indy]

C

I refer you back to land management.[/QUOTE can you elaborate or quote the post referring to land management please

 

[Indy]

C

Can you elaborate on the land management side of things please

 

[ester]

And the number of employees for the loss of jobs to be considerable but it's all gone quiet on that front too.

 

[palo1]

It is interesting too that no-one who opposes hunting has responded to the views of Daniel Greenberg who is not a hunt supporter but a legislator. I would like to read those responses.


There is some information about the number of people who would be impacted by a ban on trail hunting though that in itself is difficult as it needs all of the supporting industries to calculate what proportion of their business is directly associated with hunting. That would be similar to any equestrian discipline; does your farrier identify you as an eventer when you pop round an unaffiiliated 60cm course or a hunter when you do an open Hunter Trial? Does your feed merchant know what you do with your horses and why you might need higher energy feed at any particular time?
Does your saddle fitter have any way of inputting data about what you do with your horse or whether you might hunt 3 times a year or 2 days a week all season?

If some of the top eventers use hunting opportunities to train, fitten etc their horses how do they quantify the loss of that? What impact would that have financially and in employment terms for their business - can they quantify that by identifying a replacement activity or do they just lose that opportunity?

When Carl Hester turns up to support his local hunt, that calls in other people to that local town on that day - they support the town by visiting and probably some purchases or refreshments; how is that quantified?

When someone who is eventing or showing or anything else buys a tweed jacket that they also intend to use for hunting how is that quantified; they may or may not spend more or less money - who knows? When tack shops sell tack do they know whether that is for hunting or something else? Do we buy more expensive tack if we are hunting as opposed to hacking out? I certainly make sure that anything that I buy for trail hunting activities is going to last well and be the best quality - if I was just hacking out I might just go for a simple webbing bridle and cotton numnah. As it is, I have a M2M saddle and sheepskin numnahs. There is a huge difference in the expenditure of those things.

I am just one example of course but I am definitely not alone in my consumption behaviour. Removing hunting would certainly have an impact on jobs and lives. Again, in my own situation, we have 3 horses who are shod only for hunting; without hunting we would maintain their feet unshod all year and my farrier would lose those 3 horses off his books entirely. We use the farrier to trim and maintain purely because we need him to shoe in the winter. He may be happy to lose 3 horses for 6 months but if you repeat that across the country then yes, there would be an impact on farriers for one thing.

 

[palo1]

Can you elaborate on the land management side of things please

There has been so much written about this - both accepted and contested; on this forum and in other places. If you are really interested, just go and find out!

 

[ester]

fwiw I do think it will have an impact on people, I'm just not convinced on how considerable said impact is overall/in the grand scheme of horse ownership. If there really isn't much data that would probably be a good idea going forwards (all my hunt stuff was loaned by another hhoer except jods I think I had my own ones of those...)

 

[AdorableAlice]

Can you elaborate on the land management side of things please

Needing to ask indicates the lack of understanding of how any form of hunting, land owners, crop rotation, seasonal planting, the shooting season and land management is all linked.

Palo's comments cover the subject far better than mine.

 

[Indy]

Needing to ask indicates the lack of understanding of how any form of hunting, land owners, crop rotation, seasonal planting, the shooting season and land management is all linked.

Palo's comments cover the subject far better than mine.

I was just after your perspective that's all. I know about the farming side of things but I'm not sure how the hunt help us with land management

 

[palo1]

These dogs are culled by hunts themselves long before reaching the end of their natural lifespan so not sure how this could be considered a valid point?

That is such a misrepresentation of the truth...Would you also suggest that no-one should be breeding sheep dogs or other working dogs as they too are 'culled' before the end of their natural lifespan?

 

[palo1]

fwiw I do think it will have an impact on people, I'm just not convinced on how considerable said impact is overall/in the grand scheme of horse ownership. If there really isn't much data that would probably be a good idea going forwards (all my hunt stuff was loaned by another hhoer except jods I think I had my own ones of those...)

Before the ban came in there was considerable research done about the impact of a complete ban on livelihoods etc and that was certainly one mitigating factor in the extent and nature of the Hunting Act. However that is not up to date although the CA have fairly recently identified that more people hunt (either regularly or occasionally) now than they did at the time of the ban.

 

[Koweyka]

That is such a misrepresentation of the truth...Would you also suggest that no-one should be breeding sheep dogs or other working dogs as they too are 'culled' before the end of their natural lifespan?

There is a hunt up north that culled 18 perfectly healthy hounds before the start of last season, beautiful healthy hounds, MFHA got involved, huntsman reprimanded but made no difference 8 more were then shot. Hopefully the details will come out soon, because this particular huntsman should never be near a hound again.

 

[ester]

Before the ban came in there was considerable research done about the impact of a complete ban on livelihoods etc and that was certainly one mitigating factor in the extent and nature of the Hunting Act. However that is not up to date although the CA have fairly recently identified that more people hunt (either regularly or occasionally) now than they did at the time of the ban.

yup I was thinking post ban, I figured they would have generated figures pre ban.

 

[Fellewell]

So presumably the dog killed the lamb out of instinct? Thus acting on instinct, regardless of training.

But we can't just get rid of all animals on that basis, surely?
Our friendly yard cat kills voles, moles, birds and rabbits on a regular basis with practised skill. Unfortunately she draws the line at rats, which was her intended purpose but that's cats for you.
David Attenborough made a living out of following big cats and other predators for our entertainment and he's a national treasure. It's of no consolation to the zebra that it gets eaten.
Anyone who believes that The Hunting Act has improved the lot of the fox is very, very misguided. It was about political grandstanding, getting rid of what was perceived as 'the old guard' and plain old fashioned nimbyism. Up and down the country dozens of foxes are trapped and killed in urban areas all year round and Palo has illustrated what happens to those in rural areas far more eloquently than I could.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Needing to ask indicates the lack of understanding of how any form of hunting, land owners, crop rotation, seasonal planting, the shooting season and land management is all linked.

Wow, that was an unnecessarily patronising and unhelpful response, AA .

Hunting shooting itself in the foot again.

Anyone who believes that The Hunting Act has improved the lot of the fox is very, very misguided.

As I've posted before, I fully agree with this view. Back in the days of legal hunting the countryside in general, and the fox population in particular, were better managed simply to provide the best sport.

Many might despise the motives for this, but it is true.

But we are where we are, and fox hunting has been banned since the Hunting Act of 2004...

 

[Koweyka]

Wow, that was an unnecessarily patronising and unhelpful response, AA .

Hunting shooting itself in the foot again.

Have you seen the latest hunting leaks about the Cheshire Hunt ? Fascinating reading, though very sad about the hound killed on the road chasing a fox…this was when they had supposedly started trailing. I know people who witnessed it, the screams from the hound were horrendous, yet another victim of hunting.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Well it's a good idea for sure!! It wouldn't particularly appeal to me because the reason I go trail hunting is not to hang out in a gang of people galloping round the countryside (I think that is drag hunting...!!) but to watch hounds working a scent.

Drag hunting hounds still follow a scent, its great watching them work to find the lines. The runner is usually very fit, picks up and puts down the scent which is dragged behind, over fences too, interesting to watch when going over streams etc to see hounds working to pick up the scent trail again.
Big difference is that the master will often likely know the routes, so the field can whizz round fields, take wider lines on open common land - and find all the hedges, fences etc whilst watching hounds work a little further away.

 

[palo1]

There is a hunt up north that culled 18 perfectly healthy hounds before the start of last season, beautiful healthy hounds, MFHA got involved, huntsman reprimanded but made no difference 8 more were then shot. Hopefully the details will come out soon, because this particular huntsman should never be near a hound again.

I hadn't heard about this and have no idea why 18 perfectly healthy hounds would be killed; that is so far outside any experience or understanding I have of hunting practices. Hounds are killed/culled/euthanased for a variety of reasons; do you know why those hounds were killed? Had those hounds rioted or did they have some contagious and potentially dangerous illness (ie to cattle or sheep - neospora perhaps?)

Whilst that is utterly dire, it is not usual. Hounds ARE killed for sure but not before their time unless there is a good reason; unmanageable aggression, illness or behaviour that can't be managed within the infrastructure and a number DO return to their puppy walkers. I had a retired hound for 12 years; she didn't enjoy trail hunting so I had her at home. She was blooming awkward and would NOT have made a great pet for anyone who didn't understand her background. She wasn't especially bothered about being part of a pack (she would have been a better hound if she had been!) but never really 'cared' about house-training, was the most appalling thief, selectively deaf, rather territorial about where she chose to lie down and with the stamina of a blooming endurance animal...We adored her and entirely tolerated her foibles but they really would not be for most people wanting a pet.