Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Sandstone1]

It is no secret that 'hunting' estates actively managed their land to enable foxes to live there. Foxes were recognised as absolutely necessary, a part of the ecosystem but one that needed controlling. Not exterminating. The two are different. Since the ban, there is no support for land that encourages foxes - and that is part of the reason foxes are in decline. Previously, hunts were good for foxes in general and thus enabled other species to thrive in the habitats that were maintained for foxes. There was a balance that was well maintained and that balance has been lost.

Oh hunts are great for foxes, im sure they really enjoy being chased and ripped to bits.

 

[palo1]

you are just trying to deflect from the question of fox hunting. Yet another smokescreen. For the record I do not own a cat.

No, I am applying logic and morality to the argument but it is clearly terribly uncomfortable and inconvenient for some people.

 

[Clodagh]

The majority of the fox species was far better off when hunting was legal.
Cats are crueller than hounds.
I’ve long thought it makes no odds to the fox if people are watching or not ( unless you get bloody sickos with forks).
I haven’t read every reply but I absolutely hate cats, next doors cat here has tortured and killed all my little old bantams (pre chook lockdown). I wouldn’t let my dogs into her garden to kill my animals. ‘Oh but it’s just what they do…’.
I object to the shit as well.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It is no secret that 'hunting' estates actively managed their land to enable foxes to live there. Foxes were recognised as absolutely necessary, a part of the ecosystem but one that needed controlling. Not exterminating. The two are different. Since the ban, there is no support for land that encourages foxes - and that is part of the reason foxes are in decline. Previously, hunts were good for foxes in general and thus enabled other species to thrive in the habitats that were maintained for foxes. There was a balance that was well maintained and that balance has been lost.

It's not often we agree on this thread, Palo, but this is spot on. Overall, the fox population (the ones that didn't get killed by the hunt, obvs) was stronger and healthier pre ban, because it was carefully managed to create the best sport.

It's the law of unintended consequences. But law abiding I am, so though I hunted pre ban, I would never fox hunt illegally post ban, or support anyone who did so.

 

[AmyMay]

No, I am applying logic and morality to the argument but it is clearly terribly uncomfortable and inconvenient for some people.

It’s certainly not uncomfortable for me, for no other reason than you are wrong.

 

[lannerch]

But presumably you don't derive pleasure from this aspect of cat keeping, and the fact that your cat catches wildlife is not your the prime reason for keeping him?

We've been down the cat whataboutery diversion a few times on this thread before, btw.

No I hate the fact he tortures animals , but then most people that hunted pre ban did not devive pleasure from any subsequent killing , it’s all about the chase, hence trail hunting is still as or even more so popular although maybe not with the farmers .

 

[Sandstone1]

No, I am applying logic and morality to the argument but it is clearly terribly uncomfortable and inconvenient for some people.

What is uncomfortable for me is that we, as human beings can enjoy and make a sport out of killing. There is something very wrong for people to want to chase and kill something for fun. Which is what hunting is. Not to forget that it is and has been for some years illegal and that makes anyone doing it a criminal.

 

[palo1]

Oh hunts are great for foxes, im sure they really enjoy being chased and ripped to bits.

Look, if you really want to discuss the subject it would help to stop using that kind of language. Foxes have been recorded carrying out their own hunting activities (including killing) whilst being hunted. The death of a fox by a pack of hounds was brutal in the end, no doubt but it was totally binary and inevitably swifter than many kills that a fox itself would make. Life and death are not as easily managed as anyone would like. Foxes often got away entirely from a pack of hounds. Foxes are entirely adapted to be hunted by a pack of large canines. Those are facts. They are accepted facts in relation to cats although cats often prolong a kill, possibly for their own entertainment - who knows? That isn't pretty or kind either but cat owners are entirely at peace with it on the whole.

 

[Sandstone1]

No I hate the fact he tortures animals , but then most people that hunted pre ban did not devive pleasure from any subsequent killing , it’s all about the chase, hence trail hunting is still as or even more so popular although maybe not with the farmers .

So you like chasing a fox until its completely exhausted but you dont like to think of it being ripped apart. Oh right. I see. You do not think that being chased by 20 odd hounds for miles its anything less than torture.

 

[lannerch]

What is uncomfortable for me is that we, as human beings can enjoy and make a sport out of killing. There is something very wrong for people to want to chase and kill something for fun. Which is what hunting is. Not to forget that it is and has been for some years illegal and that makes anyone doing it a criminal.[/QUOTE

So you like chasing a fox until its completely exhausted but you dont like to think of it being ripped apart. Oh right. I see. You do not think that being chased by 20 odd hounds for miles its anything less than torture.

where did I mention me? It’s not personal sandstone although have more than once tried to make it so.

 

[Sandstone1]

Look, if you really want to discuss the subject it would help to stop using that kind of language. Foxes have been recorded carrying out their own hunting activities (including killing) whilst being hunted. The death of a fox by a pack of hounds was brutal in the end, no doubt but it was totally binary and inevitably swifter than many kills that a fox itself would make. Life and death are not as easily managed as anyone would like. Foxes often got away entirely from a pack of hounds. Foxes are entirely adapted to be hunted by a pack of large canines. Those are facts. They are accepted facts in relation to cats although cats often prolong a kill, possibly for their own entertainment - who knows? That isn't pretty or kind either but cat owners are entirely at peace with it on the whole.

I will use whatever kind of language I like thanks. Hounds do rip foxes to bits if you do not like the language it seems you do not like the reality of hunting. fox hunting is not natural its a man made sport.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Pest control fits in because of the way that a number of foxes would be killed, seasonally, by the hunt whilst the remaining population were supported. Hounds killing foxes helped to maintain healthy populations of foxes that were part of a healthy ecosystem. Wholesale killing of foxes across all seasons has been very damaging to the fox population. They remain considered vermin so the issue of killing them is pretty irrelevant. The manner of killing was very pertinent to their on-going success pre-ban as it was in no way wholesale. There is huge difference between pest control and pest extermination.

They are only considered 'vermin' by people who's livelihoods they impact, e.g. farmers with livestock. I see no issue with a farmer shooting a fox in a field to protect his lambs, however, I do see the issue with a huge group of people on horseback making a jolly day out of chasing a scared fox to exhaustion who was just minding his own business. Let alone creating a fake home for him to nest in, before pulling him out and killing him. That some people delight in this ritual, truly baffles me.

 

[Sandstone1]

They are only considered 'vermin' by people who's livelihoods they impact, e.g. farmers with livestock. I see no issue with a farmer shooting a fox in a field to protect his lambs, however, I do see the issue with a huge group of people on horseback making a jolly day out of chasing a scared fox to exhaustion who was just minding his own business. Let alone creating a fake home for him to nest in, before pulling him out and killing him. That some people delight in this ritual, truly baffles me.

I totally agree.

 

[lannerch]

They are only considered 'vermin' by people who's livelihoods they impact, e.g. farmers with livestock. I see no issue with a farmer shooting a fox in a field to protect his lambs, however, I do see the issue with a huge group of people on horseback making a jolly day out of chasing a scared fox to exhaustion who was just minding his own business. Let alone creating a fake home for him to nest in, before pulling him out and killing him. That some people delight in this ritual, truly baffles me.

I struggle with that to, and that is by far the minority in my experience all my friends that hunt are avid animal lovers and true country folk, in all walks of life , including several vets some of whom hunt in Ireland where fox hunting is not banned.

 

[palo1]

What is uncomfortable for me is that we, as human beings can enjoy and make a sport out of killing. There is something very wrong for people to want to chase and kill something for fun. Which is what hunting is. Not to forget that it is and has been for some years illegal and that makes anyone doing it a criminal.

Well you are right about the legalities of course. You may be uncomfortable with killing and the sport of killing but it is a very fundamental human activity that connects us as closely with nature as it does lions and wolves to their environment. You may well object to sport hunting but agree with subsistence hunting but the two never happen in isolation; every single culture of subsistence hunting also celebrates sport hunting. That is a fact. Hunting connects us very closely to nature, the landscape and other species in a way that nothing else does or ever has. I don't want to kill animals but I equally don't want to lose touch with what it is to be part of the wider animal world. I accept my position as part of something even when I choose not to take that to it's most brutal conclusion (to kill). I prefer in fact, to see rats killed cleanly by dogs than to poison them in their burrows. I prefer to eat things that have lived a natural, wild life until they are killed and then eaten. I prefer to see nature played out - sometimes brutally than to see it vanish. I have witnessed ravens (which I adore) hunting larks (which I also adore) and pulling them apart whilst still alive and I have seen foxes killing an unbelievable number of chickens...far more than they could ever eat. I also see cats that are well fed killing song birds and discarding them after giving them a truly unpleasant death. I am at peace with raising animals to eat and in fact take great pleasure in those animals, even whilst knowing that they will be killed on my say so, for my desire to eat meat which is demonstrably not absolutely necessary.

I understand the argument that there should be no killing; the logical conclusion to that would be an extreme form of veganism and total non-interaction with our own life system. When you see how attempts to enact that reality work out for some religious groups you may argue that that in itself, perpetuates further and more deliberate cruelty.

Very few of us leave this life without a desperate struggle. I wish it wasn't so but being unable to change that I can accept that we can engage, fatally, with other species without it being the 'wrong' that you feel it to be. We are different.

In relation to fox hunting, it was never just sport but about control so that other activities could also be managed. The sport was the following of hounds bit which is still tremendously rewarding under trail hunting conditions.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Foxes are entirely adapted to be hunted by a pack of large canines. Those are facts.

Y'wot? ?

 

[ycbm]

In relation to fox hunting, it was never just sport

It was just sport for the vast majority of the field, ridden and foot.

 

[palo1]

It was just sport for the vast majority of the field, ridden and foot.

It was the sport of either watching hounds working or riding across country. The killing was never, culturally treated as sport but taken seriously as a job of work, carried out by paid, skilled people.

 

[Koweyka]

Look at the face of this fox, killed by the Puckeridge Hunt and try and tell me that your bit of fun is worth this.
You will never ever justify this cruelty, this fox deserved to live not die because of an outdated and cruel “hobby”

 

[palo1]

Y'wot? ?

Foxes are a prey species for a wide number of animals whereever they live, including but limited to wolves, bears, coyote, lynx, eagles, feral dogs, dingoesm other foxes and a whole host of other things. They are not at the top of the chain naturally anywhere and may be killed by other animals for a host of reasons.

 

[stangs]

Well you are right about the legalities of course. You may be uncomfortable with killing and the sport of killing but it is a very fundamental human activity that connects us as closely with nature as it does lions and wolves to their environment. You may well object to sport hunting but agree with subsistence hunting but the two never happen in isolation; every single culture of subsistence hunting also celebrates sport hunting. That is a fact. Hunting connects us very closely to nature, the landscape and other species in a way that nothing else does or ever has. I don't want to kill animals but I equally don't want to lose touch with what it is to be part of the wider animal world. I accept my position as part of something even when I choose not to take that to it's most brutal conclusion (to kill). I prefer in fact, to see rats killed cleanly by dogs than to poison them in their burrows. I prefer to eat things that have lived a natural, wild life until they are killed and then eaten. I prefer to see nature played out - sometimes brutally than to see it vanish. I have witnessed ravens (which I adore) hunting larks (which I also adore) and pulling them apart whilst still alive and I have seen foxes killing an unbelievable number of chickens...far more than they could ever eat. I also see cats that are well fed killing song birds and discarding them after giving them a truly unpleasant death. I am at peace with raising animals to eat and in fact take great pleasure in those animals, even whilst knowing that they will be killed on my say so, for my desire to eat meat which is demonstrably not absolutely necessary.

I agree with you on killing being a vital part of nature, and if humans are going to become part of the ecosystem again, we’re going to have to accept that some killing does have to happen. But I find more ‘fairness’ (so to speak) in a golden eagle killing some fox cubs, than I do in tens of people on horseback chasing a single fox. The golden eagle doesn’t have a concept of ethics but people do, and surely that understanding of ethics and morality would mean that the methods chosen to kill a fox should be those that are going to bring it the least suffering.

If foxes have to be killed (given that the rural population is decreasing), they should be killed like moose are in Sweden. One set hunting season annually, all hunters have licenses dictating how many moose they can kill, and the moose is killed with one shot.

 

[ycbm]

It was the sport of either watching hounds working or riding across country. The killing was never, culturally treated as sport but taken seriously as a job of work, carried out by paid, skilled people.

It was, for everyone I know, and that was many, the sport of riding across country that they were out for. The killing was previously a socially acceptable side effect. That ended 16 years ago by law and many years before that for me after seeing a fox run for its life pursued by hounds.
.

 

[Dizzy socks]

Palo, can I ask whether you believe that the vast majority of packs hunt within the law?

And if so (which I assume), say you were convinced that in fact a majority/sizeable minority do not, what would be your preferred option for dealing with that? Should trail hunting continue?

I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this - a major part of the disagreement over the continuation of trail hunting seems to stem from some posters believing that there are only a few illegal/trespassing hunts, and those who believe it is endemic.

I have just read the last few pages, and whilst I don’t agree with most of your arguments, I do recognise and understand the points you’re trying to make.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It was the sport of either watching hounds working or riding across country. The killing was never, culturally treated as sport but taken seriously as a job of work, carried out by paid, skilled people.

For some it was always all about the kill, but never in the hunting circles that I moved in - I'd have moved out of them pretty damn smartish if it had been.

My best days (pre ban) were the ones when a strong healthy fox gave us a good day and then got away to be given best.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Foxes are a prey species for a wide number of animals whereever they live, including but limited to wolves, bears, coyote, lynx, eagles, feral dogs, dingoesm other foxes and a whole host of other things. They are not at the top of the chain naturally anywhere and may be killed by other animals for a host of reasons.

The issue is that the majority of people (myself included) see it as morally bankrupt to chase an animal to exhaustion before it is killed in a very nasty way. And to make a fun day out of it in a big jolly group. That's why it got banned, because the general public think it's barbaric.

A trained marksman giving a fox a quick bullet to the head is completely different. Foxes are not killed by humans to be eaten, so comparing us to predators who might eat foxes is pointless.

 

[palo1]

Look at the face of this fox, killed by the Puckeridge Hunt and try and tell me that your bit of fun is worth this.
You will never ever justify this cruelty, this fox deserved to live not die because of an outdated and cruel “hobby”

How was that fox killed by the Puckeridge Hunt? If it was killed by hounds, may I ask why it is still in one piece (is the blanket covering a fatal wound?). I never saw an entire fox corpse when I hunted pre-ban so this very intact fox, if it was hunted to death, is strange. I do not want anyone to be upset by gory pictures but I can't see that image particularly clearly - perhaps I am not seeing what you would want me to see. I am not trying to be obtuse.

 

[lannerch]

Look at the face of this fox, killed by the Puckeridge Hunt and try and tell me that your bit of fun is worth this.
You will never ever justify this cruelty, this fox deserved to live not die because of an outdated and cruel “hobby”

Are you really sure that’s how it met it’s end forgive my doubt but I have read far too many fictional claims , it’s just it’s highly unusual for a fox to be so intact if it really met it’s end as a result of a pack of baying foxhounds . Shooting however is a different story as often the fox is not killed outright and dies a slow lingering death injured.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I agree with you on killing being a vital part of nature, and if humans are going to become part of the ecosystem again, we’re going to have to accept that some killing does have to happen. But I find more ‘fairness’ (so to speak) in a golden eagle killing some fox cubs, than I do in tens of people on horseback chasing a single fox. The golden eagle doesn’t have a concept of ethics but people do, and surely that understanding of ethics and morality would mean that the methods chosen to kill a fox should be those that are going to bring it the least suffering.

If foxes have to be killed (given that the rural population is decreasing), they should be killed like moose are in Sweden. One set hunting season annually, all hunters have licenses dictating how many moose they can kill, and the moose is killed with one shot.

Nicely put.

 

[lannerch]

How was that fox killed by the Puckeridge Hunt? If it was killed by hounds, may I ask why it is still in one piece (is the blanket covering a fatal wound?). I never saw an entire fox corpse when I hunted pre-ban so this very intact fox, if it was hunted to death, is strange. I do not want anyone to be upset by gory pictures but I can't see that image particularly clearly - perhaps I am not seeing what you would want me to see. I am not trying to be obtuse.

Exactly what I was trying to say

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Foxes are a prey species for a wide number of animals whereever they live, including but limited to wolves, bears, coyote, lynx, eagles, feral dogs, dingoesm other foxes and a whole host of other things. They are not at the top of the chain naturally anywhere and may be killed by other animals for a host of reasons.

So, out of that list our only native predator that would hunt foxes as a pack in the UK would be the gray wolf and even then it probably wouldn't have happened often given the amount of more suitable prey available. In the US foxes have been documented following wolf packs around at a distance to get the scraps from their kills.

Lynx have been shown to have far more impact on red fox numbers in the countries they co-exist and they certainly don't hunt in packs.

A pack of domestic dogs taken out a few times a week doesn't offer anything like the benefits of having top predators in a functioning ecosystem.