Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Fred66]

What does seem to have come out of this evenings discussion is that fox hunting with hounds is morally repugnant to some of you BECAUSE there is human interaction in the process not the actual process itself.

So this then becomes about personal morality not the actual hunting and killing of one animal by another. I personally think that the welfare of the species rather than the right of the individual animal is more important and especially where man has already impacted the ecosystem we have a responsibility to provide balance where through our actions it no longer exists naturally.

Obviously to a certain extent this is now irrelevant as hunting fox with more than two hounds is now illegal on mainland Britain.

 

[palo1]

The issue is that the majority of people (myself included) see it as morally bankrupt to chase an animal to exhaustion before it is killed in a very nasty way. And to make a fun day out of it in a big jolly group. That's why it got banned, because the general public think it's barbaric.

A trained marksman giving a fox a quick bullet to the head is completely different. Foxes are not killed by humans to be eaten, so comparing us to predators who might eat foxes is pointless.

Relatively few predators eat foxes actually - they kill them to wipe out the competition. There has been a great deal written about this in fact - this is an interesting article: https://www.wildlifeonline.me.uk/animals/article/red-fox-predators

As for the moral bankruptcy argument; fox hunting was banned not remotely because of that but for entirely political reasons which everyone has acknowledged. Foxes were not actually chased to exhaustion as a matter of course, though that sometimes happened; foxes hunted by hounds were killed in varying situations. The 'fun' in it was to be riding with friends and to watch hounds, which are remarkable, following a scent with the intention of dispatching vermin. Very few people in the field were ever near a fox kill tbh. I find many things in our society morally bankrupt tbh @Miss_Millie, as do many other people but because we live in a liberal society people are generally allowed to live as they please. I am quite happy to list the things that I think could be termed as morally bankrupt but I wouldn't necessarily expect you to agree with me.

The idea of a trained marksman killing foxes is charmingly naive; most farmers are NOT trained marksmen and a high velocity rifle which is the most effective way to despatch almost anything is a very dangerous and rather specialised weapon. Welsh hill farmers for one thing don't have either the money or the time to train and maintain that level of skill though killing foxes in that way is definitely considered a 'sport' these days and there are people who are very happy to be out at night with a weapon, killing a great many foxes. That may be easier for you to accept. I hate coming across those people tbh; it gives me the creeps to think of someone with a weapon of that sort in the local woods and fields at night shooting and counting the foxes they have killed in one evening for fun. I just don't think you know the realities of that.

Farmers unions in Wales, upland England and parts of Scotland have long campaigned for hunting with hounds to be allowed in those areas and even the Scottish Parliament's own recent review ( The Bonomy Review: designed to further restrict hound activities) identified that a pack of hounds were a more effective pest control situation than 2 hounds (as is now legal anywhere) as well as being more humane.

ETA - I think you may be vegetarian so this may not be relevant but when people take great pleasure in going out for a meal, perhaps to eat a steak or lamb chop, to chat with friends and have a good time, they very rarely reflect on the pleasure they are having in consuming a dead animal; there is considerable distance travelled mentally in that situation and hunting pre-ban, was a bit similar though it is, I accept, a slightly awkward analogy. On the whole people often don't connect what they are doing with what it is. That is why it is so possible for people to consume 'stuff' at an unsustainable level, even now when we understand climate crisis, why people feel it is ok to fly for a holiday at the same time as lamenting environmental pollution. As animals with strong desires and a sense of determination to enjoy our precious freedom we often don't connect the dots. That is true in almost every activity we are engaged in. If we tried to square the circle all the time I think life would be extraordinarily different and very , very diffiicult.

 

[ycbm]

I personally think that the welfare of the species rather than the right of the individual animal is more important

So do I, but the Burns report concluded that shooting and fox hunting were equal in terms of welfare*, I believe, and therefore moral repugnance becomes relevant.

*though I am not sure that either cubbing or fake earths were included in that

 

[Koweyka]

How was that fox killed by the Puckeridge Hunt? If it was killed by hounds, may I ask why it is still in one piece (is the blanket covering a fatal wound?). I never saw an entire fox corpse when I hunted pre-ban so this very intact fox, if it was hunted to death, is strange. I do not want anyone to be upset by gory pictures but I can't see that image particularly clearly - perhaps I am not seeing what you would want me to see. I am not trying to be obtuse.

Better ?

 

[lannerch]

Better ?

Still far too intact for something that has died with a pack of fox hounds ripping it apart.

 

[ycbm]

Farmers unions in Wales, upland England and parts of Scotland have long campaigned for hunting with hounds to be allowed in those areas

Woah there! I live in English upland that has always used shooting as the primary method of fox control and nobody round here is campaigning for hunting with a pack of hounds and the farmers I know are very much against it.
.

 

[Fred66]

So do I, but the Burns report concluded that shooting and fox hunting were equal in terms of welfare*, I believe, and therefore moral repugnance becomes relevant.

*though I am not sure that either cubbing or fake earths were included in that

But hunting with hounds is more likely to lead to an element of survival of the fittest hence it is actually likely to lead to keeping the species healthier. Additionally it was dependent on the shot being clean which is by no means a sure thing.

 

[palo1]

Better ?

Well that fox has been partially disembowelled - not sure what the 'rope' is all about? No idea if this is the same fox, fox picked up off the road etc but like Lannerch, this doesn't fit the bill for a fox that has been ripped apart by hounds. How was it retrieved from hounds do you know? I can't imagine that if a pack of hounds were on this fox that it would either be easy to retrieve or would be so whole. Sorry. I know it is distressing imagery and subject matter.

 

[ycbm]

But hunting with hounds is more likely to lead to an element of survival of the fittest hence it is actually likely to lead to keeping the species healthier.

Yes but that actually led to the creation of stronger foxes which could be chased harder, faster, and longer, to give a better day's sport.

It also took foxes that were no threat to livestock, where farmers only shoot, or have shot for them, the ones that are causing an issue.
.
.

 

[Koweyka]

Well that fox has been partially disembowelled - not sure what the 'rope' is all about? No idea if this is the same fox, fox picked up off the road etc but like Lannerch, this doesn't fit the bill for a fox that has been ripped apart by hounds. How was it retrieved from hounds do you know? I can't imagine that if a pack of hounds were on this fox that it would either be easy to retrieve or would be so whole. Sorry. I know it is distressing imagery and subject matter.

That’s not a rope, it’s the foxes intestines, the kill was caught on drone footage, from flushing it to the hounds killing it.

 

[palo1]

Woah there! I live in English upland that has always used shooting as the primary method of fox control and nobody round here is campaigning for hunting with a pack of hounds and the farmers I know are very much against it.
.

Sorry, I can't find the info I had re:England but wrt Wales and Scotland it is easily found. This document is also useful (govt research paper). https://assets.publishing.service.g...Hunting_-_27_March_14_6454_Annex_A_Research.p

 

[YorksG]

That’s not a rope, it’s the foxes intestines, the kill was caught on drone footage, from flushing it to the hounds killing it.

So where are the hounds?

 

[palo1]

That’s not a rope, it’s the foxes intestines, the kill was caught on drone footage, from flushing it to the hounds killing it.

Yes, I can see that now; I just can't understand why it is being held up or caught on something possibly? It is a sad image but it is not at all the image of a fox ripped apart. I have seen similar as roadkill.

 

[Fred66]

Yes but that actually led to the creation of stronger foxes which could be chased harder, faster, and longer, to give a better day's sport.

It also took foxes that were no threat to livestock, where farmers only shoot, or have shot for them, the ones that are causing an issue.
.
.

Foxes typically range up to 5 miles so it is highly unlikely that a fox stays on one farmers land. So whilst it might not pose a threat to its immediate locality it is highly likely it poses a threat to others in the vicinity.

 

[jules9203]

I apologise as I haven't read all the comments! I feel that unfortunately hunting is put under one umbrella- that of fox hunting. I went fox hunting once in the early 90's. Since then I have only done drag hunting. Unfortunately people do not understand the difference between the two. I've had grief from passers by when drag hunting
At the moment all Hunting is seen as bad

 

[Nancykitt]

I've always had to explain Bloodhounds (clean boot hunting) to people but I'm finding that as time has gone on, they seem more reluctant to believe me. 'But what happens if the bloodhounds come across a fox?' I reply, 'They're trained to follow the scent of the runner, they don't hunt foxes.'y,

In a few recent conversations I've had people saying 'sorry I don't believe you' and telling me that trail hunting all a smokescreen for illegal fox hunting. I tell them that clean boot hunting is not the same thing as trail hunting. They tell me it's all the same.

I gave up hunting (with bloodhounds) when I moved to Scotland; I loved it, I had some of the best days ever out on a Sunday with the bloodhounds.
But I know that some who hunt with them are now getting a lot of abuse and I wouldn't be happy about that.
The whole thing is a mess.

 

[Sandstone1]

Well that fox has been partially disembowelled - not sure what the 'rope' is all about? No idea if this is the same fox, fox picked up off the road etc but like Lannerch, this doesn't fit the bill for a fox that has been ripped apart by hounds. How was it retrieved from hounds do you know? I can't imagine that if a pack of hounds were on this fox that it would either be easy to retrieve or would be so whole. Sorry. I know it is distressing imagery and subject matter.

I thought you didnt like the term "ripped apart"

 

[Koweyka]

Yes, I can see that now; I just can't understand why it is being held up or caught on something possibly? It is a sad image but it is not at all the image of a fox ripped apart. I have seen similar as roadkill.

So even though it’s throat, abdomen and intestines have been torn out that’s not enough to fulfil the image you believe a fox killed by hounds should look like ? Is this not enough?
The intestines are laying over the brush it’s not being held up.

Every fox bar one we have managed to retrieve was intact, completely disembowelled, throats torn out never a nip to the back of the head mind you, because we got to them quickly, the one that was torn into several pieces, the hounds had far more time with it, we literally pulled the head out of the jaws of one of the the hounds, it had the spinal column attached, seeing a decapitated foxes head just attached to the spinal column is something you never forget, the hounds were eating some of the intestines, we picked up a kidney and the stomach we also got the hips to the tail end, the huntsman stood over the spectacle smiling.
The police arranged a post mortem, the tests showed it was a healthy young male fox, the blood tests showed high levels of stress hormone. It didn’t die quickly as one would hope in this situation and it suffered.
Would you like to see the photos of all the foxes we retrieved ? If you have never seen a fox killed by hounds you can’t ever truly understand where I am coming from.

 

[Sandstone1]

Never has the Oscar Wilde quote been more apt.

 

[moosea]

It is a legacy issue; the Hunting Act was so difficult and so contested that many 'accomodations' had to be made - the Act would not even have made it as far as the deployment of the Parliament Act (where an Act can be passed without going to both the House of Commons and the House of Lords as our legislature usually demands - sorry if you know this but I think you are in the US so you may not be familiar with our parliamentary process!) without significant compromise. The unique qualities of traditional fox hounds were recognised in the agreement that an animal based scent could continue to be used; though any idiot could see the problems with that. Both sides were (and remain) completely entrenched and the pro-hunting lobby were determined not to lose the ability of fox hounds to hunt foxes as they felt that the act, utterly dire and nonsensical as it is, was bound to be repealed. In fact several governments considered that and everybody associated with the Act has publicly expressed great regret over it.

But now, several years down the line hunters are determined not to give any more ground up and the use of animal based scent is a problem in itself. It is one of those unintended consequences of an Act that was never fit for purpose. Drag hunts have always used a non-animal based scent and fox hunters never wanted to become drag hunters (on the whole anyway) so the traditionally minded packs who want to hunt legally hold the animal based scent as somewhat symbolic of their traditional ways. For some packs it is a loophole that they seem prepared to abuse at times. Whilst that behaviour is reprehensible and causes much angst and fury amongst law abiding packs, the use of traditional fox scent is still something of a sacred cow...

That compromise was always a pyrric victory - now also a liability in my eyes but my local pack manages to hunt legally in any case. It can be done - the scent used shouldn't really be an issue tbh but...

Sixteen years on, with trail huntings future balancing on a knife edge you'd think that it might be time to change before all is lost.

It doesn't matter how long @ycbm - the fact is that many pro-hunters, like the anti-hunters are utterly unwilling and unable to accept further compromise. Positions are as polarised or more now than they were back at the time of the Act when pro-hunters felt repeal was possible and anti-hunters felt that the Act would see the end of people on horses following hounds.

And that is why all hunting with hounds will soon be banned. Lost to pig headedness.

And off course the o

fox numbers have also significantly dropped in the countryside since the fox hunting ban and foxes have moved to more urban areas , no idea why although the suggestion is as vermin farmers are now having them killed by more effective methods where previously they let them be so the local hunt could dispatch, which inevitably resulted in the older sick or slower being the ones caught not all and any.

If foxes are vermin surley hunt followers would be pleased that rural populations were shrinking?

Well you are right about the legalities of course. You may be uncomfortable with killing and the sport of killing but it is a very fundamental human activity that connects us as closely with nature as it does lions and wolves to their environment.

What a load of rubbish!

I prefer to see nature played out - sometimes brutally than to see it vanish.

Do you refuse hospital treatment if you are ill ... to see nature played out ?
Go without clothing or modern technology ... to see nature played out?

I understand the argument that there should be no killing

The argument is not that there should be no killing. The argument is that killing should be done swiftly, humanely and not in front of a jeering crowd after a 5 mile chase.

In relation to fox hunting, it was never just sport but about control so that other activities could also be managed. The sport was the following of hounds bit which is still tremendously rewarding under trail hunting conditions.

Then if it is the sport of watching hounds work, use a different scent. Hounds should never have accidents do the masters not know where the trail is laid? or are they just hopeless at controlling the hounds? If the later should they be in control of hounds at all??

Foxes are a prey species for a wide number of animals whereever they live, including but limited to wolves, bears, coyote, lynx, eagles, feral dogs, dingoesm other foxes and a whole host of other things. They are not at the top of the chain naturally anywhere and may be killed by other animals for a host of reasons.

As are horses. Please let me know if you think it would be ok to control the numbers of wild horses with a pack of bull terriers - after all they are prey animals so they will be ok with it.

What does seem to have come out of this evenings discussion is that fox hunting with hounds is morally repugnant to some of you BECAUSE there is human interaction in the process not the actual process itself.

Not some but it would appear, most, on this thread.

So this then becomes about personal morality not the actual hunting and killing of one animal by another. I personally think that the welfare of the species rather than the right of the individual animal is more important and especially where man has already impacted the ecosystem we have a responsibility to provide balance where through our actions it no longer exists naturally.

Balance isn't maintaining foxes so there are plenty to hunt.

But hunting with hounds is more likely to lead to an element of survival of the fittest hence it is actually likely to lead to keeping the species healthier. Additionally it was dependent on the shot being clean which is by no means a sure thing.

Why would you want vermin to be stronger and healthier?

 

[palo1]

Palo, can I ask whether you believe that the vast majority of packs hunt within the law?

And if so (which I assume), say you were convinced that in fact a majority/sizeable minority do not, what would be your preferred option for dealing with that? Should trail hunting continue?

I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this - a major part of the disagreement over the continuation of trail hunting seems to stem from some posters believing that there are only a few illegal/trespassing hunts, and those who believe it is endemic.

I have just read the last few pages, and whilst I don’t agree with most of your arguments, I do recognise and understand the points you’re trying to make.

I believe that the majority of trail hunts are hunting within the law. As for the others, where illegality is proven then the law should take due cause. Where hunts bring hunting into disrepute through bad behaviour there should be a real penalty from an effective disciplinary body. The MFHA have been hopeless for hunting and that has resulted in appalling PR where poorly behaved hunts could have been disciplined and any rot sorted before it became an own goal.

 

[palo1]

So even though it’s throat, abdomen and intestines have been torn out that’s not enough to fulfil the image you believe a fox killed by hounds should look like ? Is this not enough?
The intestines are laying over the brush it’s not being held up.

Every fox bar one we have managed to retrieve was intact, completely disembowelled, throats torn out never a nip to the back of the head mind you, because we got to them quickly, the one that was torn into several pieces, the hounds had far more time with it, we literally pulled the head out of the jaws of one of the the hounds, it had the spinal column attached, seeing a decapitated foxes head just attached to the spinal column is something you never forget, the hounds were eating some of the intestines, we picked up a kidney and the stomach we also got the hips to the tail end, the huntsman stood over the spectacle smiling.
The police arranged a post mortem, the tests showed it was a healthy young male fox, the blood tests showed high levels of stress hormone. It didn’t die quickly as one would hope in this situation and it suffered.
Would you like to see the photos of all the foxes we retrieved ? If you have never seen a fox killed by hounds you can’t ever truly understand where I am coming from.

Yes, that is unpleasant but sadly I am no stranger to unpleasant death; I have seen animals killed by other animals and it is brutal. One of my bantams was eaten alive by rats; I found her dying with all of one breast chewed off - that was unforgettable as are the sheep I have seen, alive but with their eyes out from crow attacks and their bellies chewed by foxes. Dispatching them after finding them like that is grim. These things happen even when we are not there to witness them or do anything about it too.

I don't doubt your sincerity btw.

 

[palo1]

Sixteen years on, with trail huntings future balancing on a knife edge you'd think that it might be time to change before all is lost.



And that is why all hunting with hounds will soon be banned. Lost to pig headedness.




If foxes are vermin surley hunt followers would be pleased that rural populations were shrinking?



What a load of rubbish!



Do you refuse hospital treatment if you are ill ... to see nature played out ?
Go without clothing or modern technology ... to see nature played out?




The argument is not that there should be no killing. The argument is that killing should be done swiftly, humanely and not in front of a jeering crowd after a 5 mile chase.





Then if it is the sport of watching hounds work, use a different scent. Hounds should never have accidents do the masters not know where the trail is laid? or are they just hopeless at controlling the hounds? If the later should they be in control of hounds at all??



As are horses. Please let me know if you think it would be ok to control the numbers of wild horses with a pack of bull terriers - after all they are prey animals so they will be ok with it.



Not some but it would appear, most, on this thread.



Balance isn't maintaining foxes so there are plenty to hunt.




Why would you want vermin to be stronger and healthier?

Because that is generally better for nature. There is a recognition of the need for all animals to be the strongest they can be in order for the natural system to be robust and resilient. It's not a new idea.

 

[meleeka]

I understand that hunts use fox urine. Can anyone enlighten me how they get the fox urine?

 

[Miss_Millie]

I understand that hunts use fox urine. Can anyone enlighten me how they get the fox urine?

Fox farms. Foxes are kept in horrendous conditions so that it can be 'harvested' from them. Just another reason why hunting is terribly unethical.

 

[Koweyka]

Yes, that is unpleasant but sadly I am no stranger to unpleasant death; I have seen animals killed by other animals and it is brutal. One of my bantams was eaten alive by rats; I found her dying with all of one breast chewed off - that was unforgettable as are the sheep I have seen, alive but with their eyes out from crow attacks and their bellies chewed by foxes. Dispatching them after finding them like that is grim. These things happen even when we are not there to witness them or do anything about it too.

I don't doubt your sincerity btw.

The hunt admitted there was an “incident” so no they don’t have to be in pieces to be killed by the hounds.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/sl...mFF1XF0LWKB9PplGjINDLBqfk-7xdS_eNhv030u4YyJzY

 

[Tiddlypom]

I've always had to explain Bloodhounds (clean boot hunting) to people but I'm finding that as time has gone on, they seem more reluctant to believe me. 'But what happens if the bloodhounds come across a fox?' I reply, 'They're trained to follow the scent of the runner, they don't hunt foxes.'y,

In a few recent conversations I've had people saying 'sorry I don't believe you' and telling me that trail hunting all a smokescreen for illegal fox hunting. I tell them that clean boot hunting is not the same thing as trail hunting. They tell me it's all the same.

I gave up hunting (with bloodhounds) when I moved to Scotland; I loved it, I had some of the best days ever out on a Sunday with the bloodhounds.
But I know that some who hunt with them are now getting a lot of abuse and I wouldn't be happy about that.
The whole thing is a mess.

The naughty hunts, who are far from being in the small minority that some posters still like to think they are, won't be losing any sleep at the concept of bringing down the blameless pastime of hunting the clean boot as well. They just don't care as long as they get their fix for as long as possible.

The naughty hunts know full well that what they are doing will bring all of hunting with hounds down, and the legal hunts are standing by helplessly, wringing their hands and waiting for the inevitable instead of banding together and standing up to them.

 

[Sandstone1]

The majority of the fox species was far better off when hunting was legal.
Cats are crueller than hounds.
I’ve long thought it makes no odds to the fox if people are watching or not ( unless you get bloody sickos with forks).
I haven’t read every reply but I absolutely hate cats, next doors cat here has tortured and killed all my little old bantams (pre chook lockdown). I wouldn’t let my dogs into her garden to kill my animals. ‘Oh but it’s just what they do…’.
I object to the shit as well.

Perhaps the hunt should chase cats instead then, maybe everyone would be happy. Oh wait, they have already killed cats on occasion " by accident" as the hounds are always so well under control. ALERT this is sarcasm just in case no one gets it!

 

[Clodagh]

Perhaps the hunt should chase cats instead then, maybe everyone would be happy. Oh wait, they have already killed cats on occasion " by accident" as the hounds are always so well under control. ALERT this is sarcasm just in case no one gets it!

I have no argument with anyone who is anti hunting. As it is illegal now (and I don’t go any more) the whole discussion about the merits or otherwise of it is a complete waste of time. I replied last night only because I got in from work and had wine.
I just can’t resist giving my opinion about cats.

 

[meleeka]

Fox farms. Foxes are kept in horrendous conditions so that it can be 'harvested' from them. Just another reason why hunting is terribly unethical.

I suspected it would be something like this Given that they aren’t supposed to hunt foxes this seems even more unnecessary and cruel.