Hunting is in a spot of bother

[ycbm]

Publishing/releasing the films is what both publicly demonstrates that trail hunting is taking place and puts us at risk of attack by nutters! I wonder who else, carrying out a legal activity has to film that to prove it? In UK law there is always a presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

There was a whole series of programs made about The Cheshire Drag, shown on Horse and Country TV I believe.

Nobody got attacked or threatened because of it. What an odd excuse to use.

There are many motorists driving around with black boxes in their cars to prove that they are driving within the law. I believe there is a plan to make them a requirement for all new cars. Football stadia of all sizes now have CCTV to stop crowd violence, now being used against racism (and smokers) too. Ditto nightclubs and drug dealing. It's pretty normal in activities where the law is routinely being broken to prove that you aren't breaking it.
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[Sandstone1]

we all know there are countless animal rights issues. Hunting apart from being illegal, causes a lot of disruption, its a "sport"so done for the plain enjoyment of killing something for fun. Its not even done for food. Its done in the public eye. It impacts other people, causes distress to other animals, damages land, causes traffic chaos etc etc.
Also you have to start somewhere, Factory farming, puppy farms, animal experiments etc etc are all welfare issues which people campaign and protest about. It really is not just hunting and saying what about this and what about that does not justify illegal hunting. Its just another form of animal abuse. Its like saying its ok to drink and drive because someone else takes drugs.

 

[ycbm]

Well I support a football team, they get very low crowds all season, but come Boxing Day the world and his wife want to go to a football match, never see them for the rest of the year, but they think they should go just because it’s a Boxing Day thing, look at horse racing, low crowds all year, come Boxing Day loads of people go. You never see these people for the rest of the year, if they truly truly gave a **** they would be there week in week out, day in, day out supporting the hunts, the facts are they aren’t, a few years ago there were never any anti demonstrations against hunts on Boxing Day now many demonstrations happened, how do you explain that ?

I was going to write about midnight mass on Christmas Eve. Half the attendees are atheists and most of the rest never go in a church any other time.
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[Miss_Millie]

Before I give up on this discussion entirely (again!) please, please can someone explain to me why a truly minority activity around animal welfare, which is important to me, commands so much attention when there are massively significant animal welfare issues that need all the manpower they can get. I mean the scale of some welfare issues totally dwarf any amount of illegal hunting yet there are clearly people who have dedicated their lives to anti-hunting activities. Why do the animal welfare issues around hunting prove such a potent driving force for some people? The animal welfare issue is clear to me but there seem so many more significant welfare problems to address. Anti hunter and pro hunters agree that hunting is a minority activity too. I am asking this question absolutely sincerely and because no-one from an anti-hunting perspective has ever managed to answer that question.

Most people I personally know who are animal rights activists, are also passionate about helping other causes. They are the sort of people who want to make a positive difference in the world and are sensitive to the suffering of others. Most people focus their efforts on one issue because it is fatiguing to try and take on all of the problems of the world.

The plight of illegally hunted foxes might seem like small potatoes to you, compared to larger animal rights issues, but to some people it is extremely important and they want to make a difference in that area.

In my local area, there is a very small charity who rescue and rehabilitate wild birds. It is literally just a few people who volunteer, but they make a huge difference to the local wildlife. They have taken in several creatures that I have found over the years (not just birds) and brought them back from the brink of death. This might also seem like small potatoes to some people, but I see the work that they do as being significant.

Going back to fox hunting, if those hidden cameras had not been set up recently, that awful man would have got away with torturing that poor fox, and would probably do it again to other foxes in the future. I don't see the point of saying 'what about this issue' and 'what about that issue', because there are a lot of problems in the world and we can't all take them on at once.

I am grateful to anyone making an effort to reduce suffering and expose those who are acting cruelly and illegally.

 

[YorksG]

But if no illegal hunting happened then sabs would not need to exist? So people who wish to continue to trail hunt should put their efforts into rallying against those illegally fox hunting and distancing themselves from those people.

I wish that were true, but sadly it isn't.

 

[ycbm]

i find that an interesting question too palo. the people that break into intensive farming units to "liberate" livestock get branded loonies (i am not in agreement with that as a plan of action but the methods and passion/attitude re animal welfare is similar to hunt sabs, or so it seems to an outsider). Personally it seems like an easy target , compared to the many tricky facets to e.g. ethical meat production.

I've never met anyone who went on a tour of a chicken production unit as entertainment.
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[Koweyka]

Before I give up on this discussion entirely (again!) please, please can someone explain to me why a truly minority activity around animal welfare, which is important to me, commands so much attention when there are massively significant animal welfare issues that need all the manpower they can get. I mean the scale of some welfare issues totally dwarf any amount of illegal hunting yet there are clearly people who have dedicated their lives to anti-hunting activities. Why do the animal welfare issues around hunting prove such a potent driving force for some people? The animal welfare issue is clear to me but there seem so many more significant welfare problems to address. Anti hunter and pro hunters agree that hunting is a minority activity too. I am asking this question absolutely sincerely and because no-one from an anti-hunting perspective has ever managed to answer that question.

You seem to believe it’s the Sabs “job” to sort out every animal welfare issue in the country, many many of us cross over and protest for example the Beagle experiments, flights in and out of airports carrying live animals for exploitation, many Sabs are members or have crewed on the Sea Shepherd, take part in beach cleans, help out at wildlife hospitals, one of our group does regular weekly runs to a wildlife hospital on the other side of the country as it’s a specialist hospital, one has devoted herself to setting up a hedgehog hotel for hogs over winter, but that doesn’t suit the narrative about Sabs that it’s a class war.
I think you know me well enough now to know animal welfare is the at the front of everything I do, and hand on heart I can say the same of all the people I go out with.

But hunting a small mammal with a pack of dogs to be caught and killed it’s completely abhorrent, it’s not sport, the fox isn’t a willing participant in this, it’s illegal and cruel and that’s the bottom line. It’s also visible and if we can stop you hunting and killing foxes we will, lamping is vile and disgusting and the myth that anti’s don’t confront lampers is a lie, but we cannot “patrol” every inch of the countryside 365 days a year, but we come across them all the time during the badger cull and they are confronted then.

No bird or animal should have to die to provide paying customers a bit of fun, I don’t understand the pro hunt stance on this.

I would love to have had a nice quiet family Christmas, instead I have been to four hunts in seven days and seen a hare killed. I wish hunt Sabs didn’t have to exist but until the hunt killing innocent sentient animals stops monitoring and sabbing will not stop.

I still don’t understand why you don’t film trails, not to put them online but for proof you haven’t acted illegally should it ever be necessary, to an outsider that sounds like you have something to hide, given

 

[ycbm]

I wish that were true, but sadly it isn't.

I think the fact that there was an absolutely minimal sabbing of bloodhounds and an even stronger case with draghounds showed that there was a point when it was true.

Now however, with the recent convictions and videos, it is understandable that sabs will no longer believe that those people on horseback following dogs are not also going to chase fox.

Trail hunting is on a knife edge where it still has a chance to continue IF it distances itself a long way from illegal activities. Sadly I think they are going to miss that chance and take drag hunting and even blood hounding down with them.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I wish that were true, but sadly it isn't.

How do you know that it isn't true? Illegal fox hunting has continued since the ban, every year it is in the papers that X hunt killed a fox. If there was truly reform then sabs would not exist. The past couple of years have been particularly bad for mauled livestock and cats, trespass and illegal hunting. A member on here even said a few weeks back that the hunt cut one of her fences to ride across her field which had her ponies in it. Sabs will continue to grow in numbers because people are fed up of the continuous illegal behaviour.

 

[Koweyka]

[

I wish that were true, but sadly it isn't.

I know of several hunts working with Sabs and monitors to illicit change and to stop killing foxes, they have minimal monitoring now and the arrangements work well for both sides.

 

[ycbm]

Before I give up on this discussion entirely (again!) please, please can someone explain to me why a truly minority activity around animal welfare, which is important to me, commands so much attention when there are massively significant animal welfare issues that need all the manpower they can get. I mean the scale of some welfare issues totally dwarf any amount of illegal hunting yet there are clearly people who have dedicated their lives to anti-hunting activities. Why do the animal welfare issues around hunting prove such a potent driving force for some people? The animal welfare issue is clear to me but there seem so many more significant welfare problems to address. Anti hunter and pro hunters agree that hunting is a minority activity too. I am asking this question absolutely sincerely and because no-one from an anti-hunting perspective has ever managed to answer that question.

I've answered this so many times already.

Because increasing awareness of the sentience of animals means the tide of public opinion has turned against using the killing of animals to provide human entertainment.
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[ycbm]

lamping is vile and disgusting

Not if it's done as controlled pest reduction by people who know what they are doing.
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[ycbm]

Because, speaking from my own experience, some sabs simply want to cause distress and disruption regardless of the fact a hunt is hunting within the law.

They don't believe you.

And while people who claim to want the illegal hunting to stop also state that the webinars were taken out of context and the conviction is not safe, and include, or hunt with, Masters belonging to the organisation headed by the convicted man, and you continue to lay the scent of an animal it is illegal for you to hunt ...

why on earth would they ?

 

[Fred66]

I still don’t understand why you don’t film trails, not to put them online but for proof you haven’t acted illegally should it ever be necessary, to an outsider that sounds like you have something to hide, given

But we do! We have the evidence to show we are hunting within the law. We have to contend with sabs going on land and spraying citronella everywhere to in their words “confuse“ the hounds. This leads to hounds splitting and “hunting“ more than one line, increases the likelihood of them hunting fox not trail, of them straying and puts hounds and other road users at greater risk.
But this narrative doesn’t fit with the sabs message so is not published. Instead we get “we managed to save a fox as the hounds went the other way“. Duh!! Well as we weren’t hunting it then it’s likely to. Certainly with the hunt I follow sabs are more likely to cause a kill than prevent one.

 

[Sandstone1]

Asking why hunting gets so much attention when there are so many other animal welfare issues is very narrow minded in my opinion.
Its a bit like the police not bothering with shop lifting because other people commit car stealing! All different sides of the same coin.

 

[ycbm]

Publishing/releasing the films is what both publicly demonstrates that trail hunting is taking place and puts us at risk of attack by nutters!

No nutter attacks resulted from this video. An hour of what I think was the last boxing day meet before this hunt disbanded due at least in part to difficulties of laying trails with all the new development in the area around Manchester Airport.

 

[Velcrobum]

I have not joined this thread before but I once went out with a hunt aged 12 on a very slow pony. That was the only time. Fast forwards 30 years or so I went out for a quite hack on my youngster on a local bridlepath and got sabbed. I had no idea the hunt was even around until I was surrounded by what I can only describe as an aggressive mob threatening a lone female with violence. I pointed out I was not dressed smartly and was nothing to do with hunting, was riding a 4 year old who was getting very unsettled, I was eventually allowed past. It was an utterly terrifying experience and one that nobody should have to go through. I contacted the secretary of said hunt who subsequently sent me an annual meet card so I knew if the hunt might be near.

 

[Upthecreek]

Before I give up on this discussion entirely (again!) please, please can someone explain to me why a truly minority activity around animal welfare, which is important to me, commands so much attention when there are massively significant animal welfare issues that need all the manpower they can get. I mean the scale of some welfare issues totally dwarf any amount of illegal hunting yet there are clearly people who have dedicated their lives to anti-hunting activities. Why do the animal welfare issues around hunting prove such a potent driving force for some people? The animal welfare issue is clear to me but there seem so many more significant welfare problems to address. Anti hunter and pro hunters agree that hunting is a minority activity too. I am asking this question absolutely sincerely and because no-one from an anti-hunting perspective has ever managed to answer that question.

Animal welfare is only part of it. I think it’s because most people cannot understand why something that was banned many years ago is still happening. Many people would be completely unaware of the different forms of hunting. It’s all hunting to them. The bad publicity of some hunts regularly breaking the law and seemingly being allowed to continue is also a factor.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I fully agree that there are pressing animal welfare issues other than just hunting which need to be addressed. Broiler chicken welfare, for one.

With fox hunting, though, it's the continual and blatant law breaking by a determined and often well connected group of individuals which grabs the attention as much as the fate of their quarry. Of course many people also feel passionately that killing foxes for entertainment is wrong.

 

[shortstuff99]

I don't support illegal fox hunting (or killing of foxes pre ban) but I do find some of the language around it a bit uncomfortable.

While I understand the animal rights issues, most of the language I see aimed at hunters always includes some form of 'posh', 'toff', 'lording' etc which tells me it has become about more than just animal welfare.

There also seems to be a misnomer (which I think the sabs encourage) that hunting ie riding out hounds and horses is illegal, not only killing the fox with the hounds is illegal. This makes the public go for anyone.

 

[Nancykitt]

While I understand the animal rights issues, most of the language I see aimed at hunters always includes some form of 'posh', 'toff', 'lording' etc which tells me it has become about more than just animal welfare.

There also seems to be a misnomer (which I think the sabs encourage) that hunting ie riding out hounds and horses is illegal, not only killing the fox with the hounds is illegal. This makes the public go for anyone.

I agree completely. There is definitely the 'nasty rich toffs in red coats' narrative from some - not from everyone, but the 'class' thing is still there.
I remember riding through a very beautiful little village once with the bloodhounds when a man came to the front door of an enormous house and screamed 'Stop killing foxes you disgusting rich b**tards!' He was absolutely furious and I couldn't help feeling that there was a touch of irony in that I could never have afforded to live in even a tiny house in that village. Sadly, there just wasn't time to stop and explain what we were doing.

 

[palo1]

But we do! We have the evidence to show we are hunting within the law. We have to contend with sabs going on land and spraying citronella everywhere to in their words “confuse“ the hounds. This leads to hounds splitting and “hunting“ more than one line, increases the likelihood of them hunting fox not trail, of them straying and puts hounds and other road users at greater risk.
But this narrative doesn’t fit with the sabs message so is not published. Instead we get “we managed to save a fox as the hounds went the other way“. Duh!! Well as we weren’t hunting it then it’s likely to. Certainly with the hunt I follow sabs are more likely to cause a kill than prevent one.

Yes, this. So many times I have read sab reports that they have 'saved' a fox from a hunt that was several fields away and yet in any video 'evidence' accompanying (often edited) hounds just can't be seen to be hunting; Sabs use this as a PR tactic to add to the narrative that all hunts are hunting illegally but that cannot be demonstrated. I know what sabs will say in response to this so probably don't waste the effort to type it!!

There still hasn't really been a clear answer as to why trail hunting is so compelling for some people to protest against; particularly in view of the evidence that the vast majority of illegal hunting is outside of trail hunting activities. That means that the vast proportion of any animal welfare issue is entirely other to trail hunting. For all the hours and hours and Christmasses missed why wouldn't people volunteer with local registered charities who are desperate for support or provide pro bono work for animal welfare organisations that could make a huge difference. I get the point about small potatoes and I would certainly not decry anyone the value that is brought to small, dedicated charities so my point is not about that at all.

 

[Sandstone1]

Yes, this. So many times I have read sab reports that they have 'saved' a fox from a hunt that was several fields away and yet in any video 'evidence' accompanying (often edited) hounds just can't be seen to be hunting; Sabs use this as a PR tactic to add to the narrative that all hunts are hunting illegally but that cannot be demonstrated. I know what sabs will say in response to this so probably don't waste the effort to type it!!

There still hasn't really been a clear answer as to why trail hunting is so compelling for some people to protest against; particularly in view of the evidence that the vast majority of illegal hunting is outside of trail hunting activities. That means that the vast proportion of any animal welfare issue is entirely other to trail hunting. For all the hours and hours and Christmasses missed why wouldn't people volunteer with local registered charities who are desperate for support or provide pro bono work for animal welfare organisations that could make a huge difference. I get the point about small potatoes and I would certainly not decry anyone the value that is brought to small, dedicated charities so my point is not about that at all.

Well you have had answers you just choose not to accept it.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Yes, this. So many times I have read sab reports that they have 'saved' a fox from a hunt that was several fields away and yet in any video 'evidence' accompanying (often edited) hounds just can't be seen to be hunting; Sabs use this as a PR tactic to add to the narrative that all hunts are hunting illegally but that cannot be demonstrated. I know what sabs will say in response to this so probably don't waste the effort to type it!!

There still hasn't really been a clear answer as to why trail hunting is so compelling for some people to protest against; particularly in view of the evidence that the vast majority of illegal hunting is outside of trail hunting activities. That means that the vast proportion of any animal welfare issue is entirely other to trail hunting. For all the hours and hours and Christmasses missed why wouldn't people volunteer with local registered charities who are desperate for support or provide pro bono work for animal welfare organisations that could make a huge difference. I get the point about small potatoes and I would certainly not decry anyone the value that is brought to small, dedicated charities so my point is not about that at all.

I thought that my post explained it quite well; because to some people, the plight of illegally hunted foxes is very important and despite the ban, foxes are still getting killed illegally every. single. year.

 

[littleshetland]

Before I give up on this discussion entirely (again!) please, please can someone explain to me why a truly minority activity around animal welfare, which is important to me, commands so much attention when there are massively significant animal welfare issues that need all the manpower they can get. I mean the scale of some welfare issues totally dwarf any amount of illegal hunting yet there are clearly people who have dedicated their lives to anti-hunting activities. Why do the animal welfare issues around hunting prove such a potent driving force for some people? The animal welfare issue is clear to me but there seem so many more significant welfare problems to address. Anti hunter and pro hunters agree that hunting is a minority activity too. I am asking this question absolutely sincerely and because no-one from an anti-hunting perspective has ever managed to answer that question.

Correct. There is so much cruelty and injustice in this world when it comes to animal welfare and no one or one organisation can take them all on but we have to start somewhere, and why not with a 'sport' that pursues the death of an animal for pleasure? There are legions of people dedicated to filling any spare time they might have to improve the lives of animals, probably because it doesn't take a great leap of imagination to know that an animals life is as important to it as yours is to you, and mine is to me.

 

[ester]

I seem to come across quite a lot of filmed by the hunt/people hunting videos (of all types) and I also thought there was a push for the hunt to be filming sabs and vice versa so that both sides can be presented at evidence. As such I'm also struggling with why filming lines makes you more of a target.

 

[ester]

There still hasn't really been a clear answer as to why trail hunting is so compelling for some people to protest against; particularly in view of the evidence that the vast majority of illegal hunting is outside of trail hunting activities.

I think it's probably because they see a large number of people who think they are above the law. Which isn't the case for all other animal welfare issues they might otherwise be engaged in.

 

[shortstuff99]

I mean most of this could all be sorted if the MFH actually made trail hunts stick to the law and prove it. Then everyone could, possibly, be happy.

 

[mariew]

It's an easy focused domestic and therefore kind of tangible target. I'd like to see the same dedication and effort made to ending the killing of whales for their fins or stopping catching swallows off the coast of Africa.

If I ever went on a legal trailhunt no way would I want to be on a video in social media in this day and age. Especially with the possibility to be identified by someone who means harm and twisting the truth with two clicks of a mouse. Maybe if all faces and horses could be blurred so not to be able to recognise individuals but that's a lot of work.

This thread will never end as there are two opposite views that will never meet and one fuels the other and vice versa. No matter how hard each side tries. I do feel often it is a bit of a personal attack on Palo though sometimes.

 

[ester]

I think there's plenty of middling views too.