Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Gallop_Away]

Ultimately there seems to be a lot of "it's not us it's them" attitude from both sides. It's certaimnly not productive to anyone's cause.
I fear neither side will ever see eye to eye but a good starting point would be for BOTH sides to admit their own faults and work together for a solution.
I think hunting may well and truly have shot itself in the foot. There may well be time to turn things around but as time goes on its looking more doubtful.
In my opinion it would be a shame if horses and hounds working together was to dissappear from our countryside entirely. Sadly this may very well be the case because some hunts clearly felt above the law. It is hugely frustrating to those of us who are now getting dragged down with them.
One thought I do have on the matter of sabs and vigilantism....if hunting with hounds ends, where then will their attention turn? Shooting, fishing, farming........ I don't agree with illegal hunting, but neither do I agree with vigilantes taking the law into their own hands and I find it terribly worrying what precedents are being laid down allowing things to continue. Neither illegal hunting nor masked vigilantes belong in our society imo.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Hmmm. As a lifelong veggie I feel that eating broilers is as much a choice as following hounds tbh.

For me it's an animal death one way or the other that wasn't strictly necessary.

Im not about to push an agenda either way because people feel differently.
But objectively i feel pretty similar about both, it doesn't matter if it was a hunt follower or a KFC-lover that gets the accompanying "benefit" but I appreciate that's a minority view.

Personally years ago I could do the doublethink to have a day out with my horse, other people do it to eat cheap meat.

I agree that it's a choice, but (to me at least as a veggie) I can excuse people more who eat meat on the grounds that cognitive dissonance is at play. As Paul McCartney once said, if slaughterhouses were made of glass then everyone would be vegetarian. When meat is neatly packaged up and doesn't resemble an animal, people can easily forget that it ever was one and the suffering it endured.

Whereas there is a lot of evidence to suggest that many people who hunt fox, get a thrill out of seeing it ripped apart, wiping blood on the face etc - to me that is an enjoyment of violence and suffering. Someone who kills a deer in one clean shot to feed their family is a different matter.

 

[palo1]

You have defended the practice of hunting foxes with dogs, which plenty of people find cruel.

I believe, and I have been open about it, that foxes were better off as was their environment when hunting was legal. I understand the cruelty issue though I would argue that the hunting I witnessed was not cruel - as it largely enabled the fox to evade a predator in his own territory. I would not deny that the end of a hunt was brutal. I don't know how most people imagine most animals lives to end; often wild animals have a very difficult death through starvation, illness, injury or through aging processes which leave them sick or vulnerable in another way. The way in which crows take out the eyes of sheep or ponies when they are sick is grim, undoubtedly cruel and suffering in that situation is inevitable - often only relieved by human intervention. I don't and never have seen myself as uniquely superior to any other animal.

I understood the Hunting Act and I have hunted within the law since that ban came in. I do not think foxes are better off, nor is their welfare improved; foxes are less in number, sicker and many more are shot so those foxes haven't won at all and their welfare has seen no benefit which was supposed to be the point of the act. I understood, as I have posted earlier, why many hunting people felt the act would be repealed but we are where we are.

You are right in that I have defended the practice of hunting foxes with dogs, before the ban. I have not defended that since the ban though I accept I have tried to explain that 'other' perspective.

 

[palo1]

I agree that it's a choice, but (to me at least as a veggie) I can excuse people more who eat meat on the grounds that cognitive dissonance is at play. As Paul McCartney once said, if slaughterhouses were made of glass then everyone would be vegetarian. When meat is neatly packaged up and doesn't resemble an animal, people can easily forget that it ever was one and the suffering it endured.

Whereas there is a lot of evidence to suggest that many people who hunt fox, get a thrill out of seeing it ripped apart, wiping blood on the face etc - to me that is an enjoyment of violence and suffering. Someone who kills a deer in one clean shot to feed their family is a different matter.

Where is that evidence please?

 

[AmyMay]

Whereas there is a lot of evidence to suggest that many people who hunt fox, get a thrill out of seeing it ripped apart, wiping blood on the face etc .

What a complete load of nonsense - etc…

 

[Clodagh]

What a complete load of nonsense - etc…

Ballcocks. ? sorry wrong quote ?. I meant Miss Millie not AM.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Well, I hunted pre ban with 7 different packs (5 foxhounds, 2 harriers) and never knowingly saw anyone relish the act of the kill for its own sake.

There would be a sense of a job well done if we'd caught a known troublesome fox that the farmer asked us to target. But most of us followers were perfectly happy if the quarry got away after giving us a good run.

I drew the line at stag hunting though , though lots of people I knew used to go.

I never witnessed a 'blooding', either.

 

[milliepops]

Whereas there is a lot of evidence to suggest that many people who hunt fox, get a thrill out of seeing it ripped apart, wiping blood on the face etc - to me that is an enjoyment of violence and suffering.

I don't recognise that at all. Even pre ban I knew blooding was supposedly "a thing" but in my area it was something firmly confined to the history books.

In the field it was mainly a chance for a nice ride and a gossip. A few of the older folk watched the hounds. Hand on heart never came across any bloodthirsty crackpots.

Hunting was never my scene really but im glad to have had that experience. Just to have a bit of a balanced viewpoint for my own sake, more than anything.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I don't recognise that at all. Even pre ban I knew blooding was supposedly "a thing" but in my area it was something firmly confined to the history books.

In the field it was mainly a chance for a nice ride and a gossip. A few of the older folk watched the hounds. Hand on heart never came across any bloodthirsty crackpots.

Hunting was never my scene really but im glad to have had that experience. Just to have a bit of a balanced viewpoint for my own sake, more than anything.

To quote this article, published in 2015, written by a man who fox hunter for over 20 years before giving up. These are some of the cruel things he witnessed:

Clifford, of Newport, South Wales, told of one truly horrendous moment when hounds pulled a pregnant fox from her den and ripped it apart.

Afterwards, the hunt master put the heel of his boot on the three squirming pups that had been inside her and crushed them.

He added: “On one occasion we had a live fox in a sack which we tipped out in the field, but before it was tipped out they allowed the hounds to bite into the sack.

“There were other times when foxes were brought from somewhere else, so they didn’t know where they were. This meant that they ran with their head up.

"A fox brought in was trapped in a wood and then allowed to run across a few fields into a farm where it fell into the slurry pit. The farmer’s son shot it.

“It fell in because it didn’t know the pit was there, simple as that.

“Another time they dragged a fox across a couple of fields into a dry ditch before flinging the rope over a branch of a tree.

"They hoisted it up, and then let it drop a bit so the hounds could bite it. They kept doing this to work the hounds up. In the end they just dropped it into the pack of hounds.

“I remember looking at the fox being kept in the milk churn and thinking, ‘Tomorrow, you’ll be dead’. They are lovely creatures. I am totally ashamed at my cruelty to those animals.

“It’s quite awful, quite barbaric really. What I myself did was quite awful.”

If this isn't getting a kick out of hurting animals then I honestly don't know what is. I don't think most people who eat meat relish the thought of how the animal died, whereas the man mentioned above clearly enjoyed stamping on the unborn cubs of the vixen.

So to those above saying nonsense and bollocks, maybe not everyone who hunts gets a kick out of the cruelty, but there sure as hell are a lot of people who did/do.

 

[Koweyka]

I once walked with a sab carrying the head end of a fox that had literally been torn too shreds, there were teenage girls laughing at us, there was another smaller group that toasted us with their hip flasks, without doubt they revelled in the death.
Another fox was being bagged up at the side of the road for evidence with the police, a group of hunt support were making pretend crying faces and laughing at certainly my obvious distress.
This wasn’t pre ban it was just a few years ago.

 

[milliepops]

Im still not convinced that one man's account makes for "lots of evidence " about "many people".
Your previous post read like half the field was rubbing their hands with glee ?

Eta I also think that people will respond differently when sabs are around, both sides rile each other up ?

 

[AmyMay]

To quote this article, published in 2015, written by a man who fox hunter for over 20 years before giving up. These are some of the cruel things he witnessed:

Clifford, of Newport, South Wales, told of one truly horrendous moment when hounds pulled a pregnant fox from her den and ripped it apart.

Afterwards, the hunt master put the heel of his boot on the three squirming pups that had been inside her and crushed them.

He added: “On one occasion we had a live fox in a sack which we tipped out in the field, but before it was tipped out they allowed the hounds to bite into the sack.

“There were other times when foxes were brought from somewhere else, so they didn’t know where they were. This meant that they ran with their head up.

"A fox brought in was trapped in a wood and then allowed to run across a few fields into a farm where it fell into the slurry pit. The farmer’s son shot it.

“It fell in because it didn’t know the pit was there, simple as that.

“Another time they dragged a fox across a couple of fields into a dry ditch before flinging the rope over a branch of a tree.

"They hoisted it up, and then let it drop a bit so the hounds could bite it. They kept doing this to work the hounds up. In the end they just dropped it into the pack of hounds.

“I remember looking at the fox being kept in the milk churn and thinking, ‘Tomorrow, you’ll be dead’. They are lovely creatures. I am totally ashamed at my cruelty to those animals.

“It’s quite awful, quite barbaric really. What I myself did was quite awful.”

If this isn't getting a kick out of hurting animals then I honestly don't know what is. I don't think most people who eat meat relish the thought of how the animal died, whereas the man mentioned above clearly enjoyed stamping on the unborn cubs of the vixen.

So to those above saying nonsense and bollocks, maybe not everyone who hunts gets a kick out of the cruelty, but there sure as hell are a lot of people who did/do.

Absolute barbarity, and not something I ever experienced with the 4 packs I hunted with.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Im still not convinced that one man's account makes for "lots of evidence " about "many people".
Your previous post read like half the field was rubbing their hands with glee ?

Well that is your interpretation. The point that I was trying to make is that I don't think fox hunting can be compared to meat eating (as some were trying to do above) because people who buy meat from the supermarket are happily ignorant to the suffering of the animal they are eating. Whereas those who hunt/hunted fox, know exactly the kind of suffering the animal endures, and in some cases as written above, delight in tormenting the animal and prolonging its death.

The video of the man dragging out the fox and torturing it with a pitch fork is recent evidence that SOME people who hunt, take glee in causing suffering to the foxes.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Absolute barbarity, and not something I ever experienced with the 4 packs I hunted with.

Yes it is, and I never said that everyone who hunts is like this. But there are definitely some people who get a power rush from causing suffering, and the chance to kill an animal certainly attracts those kinds of deranged individuals.

 

[Koweyka]

"They hoisted it up, and then let it drop a bit so the hounds could bite it. They kept doing this to work the hounds up. In the end they just dropped it into the pack of hounds.”

I once discovered a skeleton of a fox hanging in a disused barn, there were several other fox skeletons piled in a corner, there was also an artificial earth, all in same location a fox was killed in prime hunt country.

 

[AmyMay]

Well that is your interpretation. The point that I was trying to make is that I don't think fox hunting can be compared to meat eating (as some were trying to do above) because people who buy meat from the supermarket are happily ignorant to the suffering of the animal they are eating. Whereas those who hunt/hunted fox, know exactly the kind of suffering the animal endures, and in some cases as written above, delight in tormenting the animal and prolonging its death.

The video of the man dragging out the fox and torturing it with a pitch fork is recent evidence that SOME people who hunt, take glee in causing suffering to the foxes.

Is it many people, or some people?

 

[milliepops]

Well that is your interpretation. The point that I was trying to make is that I don't think fox hunting can be compared to meat eating (as some were trying to do above) because people who buy meat from the supermarket are happily ignorant to the suffering of the animal they are eating. Whereas those who hunt/hunted fox, know exactly the kind of suffering the animal endures, and in some cases as written above, delight in tormenting the animal and prolonging its death.

The video of the man dragging out the fox and torturing it with a pitch fork is recent evidence that SOME people who hunt, take glee in causing suffering to the foxes.

I understand the point you're making.
But I don't think the cognitive dissonance (or willful ignorance) re unidentifiable lumps of supermarket meat is any better tbh, it happens on a potentially much wider scale so I find it hard to condemn one over the other really. Just my personal pov.

 

[Koweyka]

This is disgusting….


https://apple.news/AmoZwzTYdSCSQ_JLlmN4WQw

 

[Miss_Millie]

Is it many people, or some people?

I can't give you an exact number sorry, I'm not omniscient!

 

[Miss_Millie]

I understand the point you're making.
But I don't think the cognitive dissonance (or willful ignorance) re unidentifiable lumps of supermarket meat is any better tbh, it happens on a potentially much wider scale so I find it hard to condemn one over the other really. Just my personal pov.

I get it, lots of people are aware of the suffering caused to farm animals and continue to eat meat anyway. I just understand it slightly more because 86% of people eat across the globe eat meat so it is very normalised/acceptable. And also, some people with certain autoimmune conditions do actually need to eat some meat to stay healthy.

 

[AmyMay]

I can't give you an exact number sorry, I'm not omniscient!

But you said…

Whereas there is a lot of evidence to suggest that many people who hunt fox, get a thrill out of seeing it ripped apart, wiping blood on the face etc

.

Is it just ‘he said, she said’ lots of evidence then? ??‍

 

[milliepops]

I get it, lots of people are aware of the suffering caused to farm animals and continue to eat meat anyway. I just understand it slightly more because 86% of people eat across the globe eat meat so it is very normalised/acceptable. And also, some people with certain autoimmune conditions do actually need to eat some meat to stay healthy.

Yeah so this is going off topic a bit but it shows how much social norms shape people's opinions of what is acceptable, it's pretty subconscious a lot of the time.

 

[Upthecreek]

I hunted regularly pre-ban. I hunted for the thrill of it. The huge adrenaline rush of following hounds in full cry over testing country alongside friends. I think it’s a mis-conception that most of those who hunted were anywhere near or remotely interested in the kill. I couldn’t even tell you most days whether there was a kill or not and I expect they killed one or two out of every ten foxes chased, if that. Most of the field were completely unaware of what went on so if there was blooding or dodgy activities by terrier men I never witnessed it. To be totally honest I never even considered animal welfare at the time.

 

[Fred66]

I don't support illegal fox hunting (or killing of foxes pre ban) but I do find some of the language around it a bit uncomfortable.

While I understand the animal rights issues, most of the language I see aimed at hunters always includes some form of 'posh', 'toff', 'lording' etc which tells me it has become about more than just animal welfare.

There also seems to be a misnomer (which I think the sabs encourage) that hunting ie riding out hounds and horses is illegal, not only killing the fox with the hounds is illegal. This makes the public go for anyone.

Tell enough lies and people believe you. Trail hunting is not illegal

I mean most of this could all be sorted if the MFH actually made trail hunts stick to the law and prove it. Then everyone could, possibly, be happy.

But most do !!!
It makes no difference, you have hunt saboteurs out to many hunts, they aren’t interested in dialogue, they don’t want to see that you are following a legally laid trail. They enjoy intimidating, threatening and abusing people from a position of anonymity (including children). They break the law every time they come out but they do it under the guise of “animal welfare”.
Those of you who defend their actions then I hope you never have the misfortune to fall foul of people who act in this way. You might feel that they have a just cause in this instance but if they do succeed in getting all forms of hunting banned what next? Shooting, fishing, racing, eventing, eventually something that matters to you would be caught up by this type of illegal extremist behavior.
Why don’t they follow the hunts openly, unmasked, engage with the masters to find out how they are laying the trails, follow legally, don’t shout abuse to try and provoke a reaction or intimidate, especially when children are involved.

 

[shortstuff99]

Tell enough lies and people believe you. Trail hunting is not illegal

But most do !!!
It makes no difference, you have hunt saboteurs out to many hunts, they aren’t interested in dialogue, they don’t want to see that you are following a legally laid trail. They enjoy intimidating, threatening and abusing people from a position of anonymity (including children). They break the law every time they come out but they do it under the guise of “animal welfare”.
Those of you who defend their actions then I hope you never have the misfortune to fall foul of people who act in this way. You might feel that they have a just cause in this instance but if they do succeed in getting all forms of hunting banned what next? Shooting, fishing, racing, eventing, eventually something that matters to you would be caught up by this type of illegal extremist behavior.
Why don’t they follow the hunts openly, unmasked, engage with the masters to find out how they are laying the trails, follow legally, don’t shout abuse to try and provoke a reaction or intimidate, especially when children are involved.

I know trail is not illegal, but from what I see online general members of the public think the WHOLE thing is illegal and can't understand still seeing the hunt. This is perpetuated by SABS and what I think they need to counter if they want to survive.

As I've said before the antis/sabs etc are winning the PR war on this by miles. I KNOW people shouldn't have to justify themselves but if they want to survive then they really do need to. A strong response to any wrong doing and full transparency will go a long way to doing that.

I hunted pre ban and post ban I know what it is all about.

 

[Sandstone1]

Maybe tell all this to the Warwickshire who have killed THREE times recently. One of which was a deer. Now that is fact with evidence.

 

[Upthecreek]

Maybe tell all this to the Warwickshire who have killed THREE times recently. One of which was a deer. Now that is fact with evidence.

But nobody is condoning that. At all. Absolutely nobody. In my opinion hunts who do this should be stopped from hunting if they cannot or will not hunt within the law. It is not the fault of any posters on here that they are not punished appropriately for breaking the law.

 

[palo1]

Tell enough lies and people believe you. Trail hunting is not illegal

But most do !!!
It makes no difference, you have hunt saboteurs out to many hunts, they aren’t interested in dialogue, they don’t want to see that you are following a legally laid trail. They enjoy intimidating, threatening and abusing people from a position of anonymity (including children). They break the law every time they come out but they do it under the guise of “animal welfare”.
Those of you who defend their actions then I hope you never have the misfortune to fall foul of people who act in this way. You might feel that they have a just cause in this instance but if they do succeed in getting all forms of hunting banned what next? Shooting, fishing, racing, eventing, eventually something that matters to you would be caught up by this type of illegal extremist behavior.
Why don’t they follow the hunts openly, unmasked, engage with the masters to find out how they are laying the trails, follow legally, don’t shout abuse to try and provoke a reaction or intimidate, especially when children are involved.

Yes, quite. And why do sabs insist on giving Police edited footage of alleged illegal hunting when they know that cannot be used? Possibly there are things they don't wish to have to explain. The assertion that most sabs are peaceful and committed to animal welfare may be true but it is incredibly easy to find contradictions to that in all manner of ways. For example:-

Purely bizarre but probably harmless trespass:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=717628812532727

Calling hounds onto a road:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=626661957776781

Splitting of hounds: https://www.facebook.com/Hunting-fo...1/photos/pcb.879723919330535/879723682663892/

Imaginative design on a church door: https://www.facebook.com/Hunting-fo...41/photos/pcb.875991993037061/875991923037068

Safety first!! : https://www.facebook.com/127375934565341/photos/a.129978400971761/864405900862337/

Interesting choice of self protection:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1252472728499032

More safety advice: (throwing snap bangs at horses) https://www.facebook.com/Hunting-fo...1/photos/pcb.821443175158610/821441591825435/ Sabs would never hurt an animal’ we give you Tony. In Tony’s bio he is an advocate of Peace and Love. Yet his idea is to throw snap bangers at horses to cause them a great deal of stress and potential injury and make them to throw their riders. More proof if ever needed that the Sab ethos has nothing to do with animal welfare.

Looking after wildlife on the LACS estate at Baronsdown:-

A photograph of the concentration of deer on a farm near the League Against Cruel Sport's Barronsdown 'sanctuary' on exmoor. As you can see there are huge numbers. Would you be successfully able to farm with such a high concentration of deer on your land?
Once upon a time the farmers would rely on the hunt, not nessssaryly to kill deer but to disperse them.
The league artificially fed deer into the 'sanctuary'. Unfortunately this attracted so many deer that 107 were found dead of starvation and disease in a 12 month period in and around the leagues land.
So then the league started to medicate the deer for things like worms....which happens with high population densities. This unfortunately ment any deer shot on surrounding land had to be dumped rather than enter the food chain as medicated animals need a withdrawal period before they can be eaten.
Of all the deer found to be suffering from TB on exmoor 86% where in the area surrounding Barronsdown due to such artificial population densities.

Certainly not taking the moral high ground on this character: https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....cOlqnvtDy1s0hzTrDNbRBP5ZoMYyOnfH5yF8YJcBQ1cNk

And just looking after the countryside of course:
North Wales Hunt Sabs got themselves into a little bother yesterday. Despite being warned that their vehicle was leaking diesel, these wildlife warriors and all round environmentalists decided to drive their land rover through private land and over a heavy populated salmon river, despite the protests of the landowner who was concerned about pollution entering the watercourse.
The NW Sabs have previously been warned by police about overloading their clapped out Landy and after travelling another 200 yards their vehicle finally collapsed under the load

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=397865128477019

 

[Sandstone1]

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/n...sm-zhh-vQiAfD6oa6mdJQJ846I0dCc5CrWND5QxU_-REo

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=618487526134222

I can copy and paste too.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eaCKGUHEgBAiQW_XXnBZBz9dT_4k8IVGi3LqRF-MaLtQE
There is SO much more but I can not be bothered at this point. It goes round in circles again and again. Fact is illegal hunting IS going on and when trail hunting is banned too you will know who to blame.

 

[meleeka]

Yes, quite. And why do sabs insist on giving Police edited footage of alleged illegal hunting when they know that cannot be used? Possibly there are things they don't wish to have to explain. The assertion that most sabs are peaceful and committed to animal welfare may be true but it is incredibly easy to find contradictions to that in all manner of ways. For example:-

Purely bizarre but probably harmless trespass:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=717628812532727

Calling hounds onto a road:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=626661957776781

Splitting of hounds: https://www.facebook.com/Hunting-fo...1/photos/pcb.879723919330535/879723682663892/

Imaginative design on a church door: https://www.facebook.com/Hunting-fo...41/photos/pcb.875991993037061/875991923037068

Safety first!! : https://www.facebook.com/127375934565341/photos/a.129978400971761/864405900862337/

Interesting choice of self protection:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1252472728499032

More safety advice: (throwing snap bangs at horses) https://www.facebook.com/Hunting-fo...1/photos/pcb.821443175158610/821441591825435/ Sabs would never hurt an animal’ we give you Tony. In Tony’s bio he is an advocate of Peace and Love. Yet his idea is to throw snap bangers at horses to cause them a great deal of stress and potential injury and make them to throw their riders. More proof if ever needed that the Sab ethos has nothing to do with animal welfare.

Looking after wildlife on the LACS estate at Baronsdown:-

A photograph of the concentration of deer on a farm near the League Against Cruel Sport's Barronsdown 'sanctuary' on exmoor. As you can see there are huge numbers. Would you be successfully able to farm with such a high concentration of deer on your land?
Once upon a time the farmers would rely on the hunt, not nessssaryly to kill deer but to disperse them.
The league artificially fed deer into the 'sanctuary'. Unfortunately this attracted so many deer that 107 were found dead of starvation and disease in a 12 month period in and around the leagues land.
So then the league started to medicate the deer for things like worms....which happens with high population densities. This unfortunately ment any deer shot on surrounding land had to be dumped rather than enter the food chain as medicated animals need a withdrawal period before they can be eaten.
Of all the deer found to be suffering from TB on exmoor 86% where in the area surrounding Barronsdown due to such artificial population densities.

Certainly not taking the moral high ground on this character: https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....cOlqnvtDy1s0hzTrDNbRBP5ZoMYyOnfH5yF8YJcBQ1cNk

And just looking after the countryside of course:
North Wales Hunt Sabs got themselves into a little bother yesterday. Despite being warned that their vehicle was leaking diesel, these wildlife warriors and all round environmentalists decided to drive their land rover through private land and over a heavy populated salmon river, despite the protests of the landowner who was concerned about pollution entering the watercourse.
The NW Sabs have previously been warned by police about overloading their clapped out Landy and after travelling another 200 yards their vehicle finally collapsed under the load

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=397865128477019

Another round of whataboutery.