Hunting is in a spot of bother

[milliepops]

I've never met anyone who went on a tour of a chicken production unit as entertainment.
.

And i haven't met anyone on the hunting field going OOOH great look at that fox getting torn up, the entertainment value is elsewhere for (I'd hazard) most followers. I pottered about in the field for a few seasons pre-ban, purely along for the ride in the eventing off-season.

and although few people would want to see the inside of a chicken production unit, plenty of people like to eat the product

 

[Miss_Millie]

It's an easy focused domestic and therefore kind of tangible target. I'd like to see the same dedication and effort made to ending the killing of whales for their fins or stopping catching swallows off the coast of Africa.

If I ever went on a legal trailhunt no way would I want to be on a video in social media in this day and age. Especially with the possibility to be identified by someone who means harm and twisting the truth with two clicks of a mouse. Maybe if all faces and horses could be blurred so not to be able to recognise individuals but that's a lot of work.

This thread will never end as there are two opposite views that will never meet and one fuels the other and vice versa. No matter how hard each side tries. I do feel often it is a bit of a personal attack on Palo though sometimes.

Maybe you haven't heard of Sea Shepherds? They have been campaigning against whaling since the 70s, and they aren't the only ones.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I think we can argue the sabs vs hunting argument round and around until we are blue in the face. Ultimately there is right and wrong on both sides.
Some sabs don't give a fig about animal welfare, its purely an exercise in "sticking it to the toffs". They harass, intimidate and trespass constantly which does their "cause" no favours. However, there are those peaceful monitors who genuinely care about British wildlife.
Equally there is clearly a huge problem with illegal hunting happening right now. Those hunts that continue to flout the law and ruin it for those that are genuinely hunting within the law. It is truly shameful and I've not seen anyone try and justify this awful behaviour on this or any other hunting thread.
Ultimately there is a huge distrust on both sides it would seem. In order for things to finally end I think both sides will need to compromise.
Hunts need to be more transparent, and open with sabs but equally sabs must also be prepared for the intimidation and harassment of hunts to stop. Otherwise I see neither side reaching an understanding with the other.

* Edit as I hit save far too soon *

 

[mariew]

Maybe you haven't heard of Sea Shepherds? They have been campaigning against whaling since the 70s, and they aren't the only ones.

My apologies, that should have been sharks, not whales. Too much multitasking. Fortunately whaling isn't anywhere near as common anymore!

 

[TGM]

No nutter attacks resulted from this video. An hour of what I think was the last boxing day meet before this hunt disbanded due at least in part to difficulties of laying trails with all the new development in the area around Manchester Airport.

Totally agree. Our local bloodhound pack regularly publishes hundreds of videos - some GoPros from hunt staff, some from field followers, plus mobile phone footage from foot followers and also just from interested bystanders (who have come to see the hunt because all meets are very openly listed on their public FB page and website). Occasionally you might get the odd negative comment from those who don't understand bloodhounding (who are then educated). But certainly no-one refrains from sharing videos because of the worry of 'attack by nutters '. Why do genuine trail hunts think they will be treated differently?

 

[Regandal]

This thread will never end as there are two opposite views that will never meet and one fuels the other and vice versa. No matter how hard each side tries. I do feel often it is a bit of a personal attack on Palo though sometimes.

Exactly. I commend Palo1 on her civility and patience. Anyone would think she single-handedly ran fox hunting in this country.

 

[Miss_Millie]

My apologies, that should have been sharks, not whales. Too much multitasking. Fortunately whaling isn't anywhere near as common anymore!

Sea Shepherds are also hot on shark conservation, and they aren't the only ones.

 

[meleeka]

Before I give up on this discussion entirely (again!) please, please can someone explain to me why a truly minority activity around animal welfare, which is important to me, commands so much attention when there are massively significant animal welfare issues that need all the manpower they can get. I mean the scale of some welfare issues totally dwarf any amount of illegal hunting yet there are clearly people who have dedicated their lives to anti-hunting activities. Why do the animal welfare issues around hunting prove such a potent driving force for some people? The animal welfare issue is clear to me but there seem so many more significant welfare problems to address. Anti hunter and pro hunters agree that hunting is a minority activity too. I am asking this question absolutely sincerely and because no-one from an anti-hunting perspective has ever managed to answer that question.

I think it’s because people like yourself defend it when most others see it as an animal welfare problem I imagine if there were a handful of posters strongly defending racing on public roads with traps, for example (which is also hugely anti-social), the replies from most other posters would be very similar. I expect the people that do that would
argue it’s merits as a sport all day long too. I personally know of people who do devote a lot of time and energy disrupting the activities of people who live in caravans and race horses, the same as some do to prevent fox hunting.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Exactly. I commend Palo1 on her civility and patience. Anyone would think she single-handedly ran fox hunting in this country.

Palo I truly commend you for keeping your cool and writing such well thought out replies to frankly rude and aggressive comments that are made towards you by some posters. It is a shame some people can not show you the same courtesy in return.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I think that the majority of people posting on this thread have been polite on both sides.

 

[ycbm]

And i haven't met anyone on the hunting field going OOOH great look at that fox getting torn up, the entertainment value is elsewhere for (I'd hazard) most followers.

Of course. But followers, mounted and foot, can't deny that they are complicit in the kill in the kill, can they? And hunting did, I don't know if it still does post ban, celebrate a kill by cutting up the fox and giving bits of it to various people and wiping its blood on the face of someone who was in at the kill, a practice called blooding.

I pottered about in the field for a few seasons pre-ban, purely along for the ride in the eventing off-season.

I did the same until I actually saw a fox run for its life and experienced cub hunting. I can't recall now which was my last straw.

and although few people would want to see the inside of a chicken production unit, plenty of people like to eat the product

The issue of vegetarian and vegan diets and limiting eating high welfare animal protein to the wealthy is a different one. Broiler chicken feed people, fox carcasses do not.
.

 

[Koweyka]

I think that the majority of people posting on this thread have been polite on both sides.

So do I, I am fairly certain I am being referred too, when considering all the derogatory things that I by “deflection” have been called, I have really kept my cool.
The hunts are the ones maintaining this class war image, I don’t believe anyone involved in hunting animals as any class whatsoever, I have never referred to them as toffs. I don’t see horse ownership as a sign of class.

 

[palo1]

T

I think it’s because people like yourself defend it when most others see it as an animal welfare problem I imagine if there were a handful of posters strongly defending racing on public roads with traps, for example (which is also hugely anti-social), the replies from most other posters would be very similar. I expect the people that do that would
argue it’s merits as a sport all day long too. I personally know of people who do devote a lot of time and energy disrupting the activities of people who live in caravans and race horses, the same as some do to prevent fox hunting.

Sorry to shout but I AM NOT DEFENDING ILLEGAL HUNTING. I never have done that although I have defended pre-ban hunting with what I believe are sincere and informed views.

 

[ycbm]

This photo was taken in 2005. It shows a 6 year old boy having fox blood wiped onto his face in celebration of a kill. I know this activity lasted a lot later than that, but hunts got wise to showing pictures of it.

 

[Koweyka]

T


Sorry to shout but I AM NOT DEFENDING ILLEGAL HUNTING. I never have done that although I have defended pre-ban hunting with what I believe are sincere and informed views.

It really isn’t the impression you give though ….

 

[milliepops]

It really isn’t the impression you give though ….

It is if you read what she's actually written though, instead of what people choose to interpret from it ?

 

[Miss_Millie]

So do I, I am fairly certain I am being referred too, when considering all the derogatory things that I by “deflection” have been called, I have really kept my cool.
The hunts are the ones maintaining this class war image, I don’t believe anyone involved in hunting animals as any class whatsoever, I have never referred to them as toffs. I don’t see horse ownership as a sign of class.

Lots of working class people hunt, I think that fact that a lot of wealthy MPs hunt and rural police hunt, adds to the general image of corruption. To me 'class' is completely irrelevant, although I'm sure there is ignorance about this on both sides. In the same way that all antis are apparently 'townies', but that is not the case either. You only have to go on farm forums to see how much some farmers hate trail hunting and the nuisance it causes them.

 

[ycbm]

Sorry to shout but I AM NOT DEFENDING ILLEGAL HUNTING. I never have done that although I have defended pre-ban hunting with what I believe are sincere and informed views.

I know that Palo, (though I'd be a lot more comfortable with it if you would condemn the webinars) and I know it frustrates you, but hunters' defence of legal fox hunting, clear desire to return to it and apparent belief that it can be returned to are a big part of what drives the sabs to keep sabbing, I think. And it saddens me that hunters are likely to lose trail hunting and take drag hunting down with them because they can't accept that.
.

 

[meleeka]

T


Sorry to shout but I AM NOT DEFENDING ILLEGAL HUNTING. I never have done that although I have defended pre-ban hunting with what I believe are sincere and informed views.

You have defended the practice of hunting foxes with dogs, which plenty of people find cruel.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I think that the majority of people posting on this thread have been polite on both sides.

Perhaps I am reading a different thread. The vast majority are polite but the same posters seem to continually respond to palo's post in a manner which comes across as rude and borderline aggressive, which is a shame in an otherwise polite debate.

 

[milliepops]

The issue of vegetarian and vegan diets and limiting eating high welfare animal protein to the wealthy is a different one. Broiler chicken feed people, fox carcasses do not.
.

Hmmm. As a lifelong veggie I feel that eating broilers is as much a choice as following hounds tbh.

For me it's an animal death one way or the other that wasn't strictly necessary.

Im not about to push an agenda either way because people feel differently.
But objectively i feel pretty similar about both, it doesn't matter if it was a hunt follower or a KFC-lover that gets the accompanying "benefit" but I appreciate that's a minority view.

Personally years ago I could do the doublethink to have a day out with my horse, other people do it to eat cheap meat.

 

[Gallop_Away]

So do I, I am fairly certain I am being referred too, when considering all the derogatory things that I by “deflection” have been called, I have really kept my cool.
The hunts are the ones maintaining this class war image, I don’t believe anyone involved in hunting animals as any class whatsoever, I have never referred to them as toffs. I don’t see horse ownership as a sign of class.

I'm glad for you at least it is about animal welfare, but just as some hunts are hunting illegally while others do it within the law, many sabs seem to make it a "class war".
I can not tell you how many times we have been called things like "posh tw@ts" and "f**k the toffs" from our local sabs. The irony in that I hunt with a Welsh pack thats history is made from local people, farmers and miners, and today the vast majority is made up from working class people.

 

[palo1]

Maybe you haven't heard of Sea Shepherds? They have been campaigning against whaling since the 70s, and they aren't the only ones.

Incidentally Sea Shepherd very nearly succeeded in closing down whaling but their approach to the Faroese situation has been arguably counter-productive. That whaling culture there was virtually dead until Sea Shepherd arrived. The documentary film maker Mike Day explores the change there in his award winning film The Islands and The Whales. The pressure exerted on the Faroese from the anti-whaling groups effectively resulted in retaliation against them and the actual increase in whaling activity. Ironically enough, the levels of mercury in harvested whales are hugely toxic and have resulted in significant cognitive impairments in children by the age of 14 years old. Children in the Faroe Isles have been born with dangerously high levels of mercury, developmental issues and double the expected rate of heart problems and Parkinsons disease.

There are lessons for us all in that tale.

I am not in support of whaling and have supported Sea Shepherd but the issues are always more nuanced than people want to imagine and potentially whaling would have died a natural cultural death in the Faroe Isles and their population would have been healthier now without that external pressure.

 

[AmyMay]

It really isn’t the impression you give though ….

Unfair, and not true.

Palo has also debated this issue thoroughly and with great constraint.

 

[meleeka]

I'm glad for you at least it is about animal welfare, but just as some hunts are hunting illegally while others do it within the law, many sabs seem to make it a "class war".
I can not tell you how many times we have been called things like "posh tw@ts" and "f**k the toffs" from our local sabs. The irony in that I hunt with a Welsh pack thats history is made from local people, farmers and miners, and today the vast majority is made up from working class people.

I think that’s pretty standard towards horse owners in general, not just those that hunt.

 

[AmyMay]

You have defended the practice of hunting foxes with dogs, which plenty of people find cruel.

That is not defending illegal hunting ?

 

[Sandstone1]

Its nothing to do with class for me. I simply hate the fact that a living, feeling animal is chased and killed for fun. Also that it is illegal. A sport is made out of terrifying and killing. Along side this is the disruption and stress caused by the hunt.
I feel very strongly about it.

 

[Clodagh]

I think that most people never thought about hunting and cruelty. I can’t even verbalise why I never had a problem with fox hunting (although not madly keen on deer hunting). Doublethink maybe, I just can’t say. At the end of the day it was banned due it largely being an outdated sport, imo.
The anti hunt people have improved their evidence catching and therefore are coming up with unspeakable video like the fox being stabbed. This , and possibly the webinars (although I’m not sure that the majority cared) , have really caught some hunts, and sadly the governing body, with their pants down. This arrogance will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Just my thoughts. I love foxhounds, great goofy lumps, and hope they don’t die out as a breed but things really need to change now.
The MFHA need to condemn anyone proven to be illegal hunting or doing things like stabbing a fox with a fork.
Every accidental death of a fox, deer, cat, whatever, needs an apology and censure for the people that do it.
Hunting needs to start following the law.
The loopholes were handy but I think that attitudes have changed and it’s time to step up and deal.

 

[ycbm]

I think that most people never thought about hunting and cruelty. I can’t even verbalise why I never had a problem with fox hunting (although not madly keen on deer hunting). Doublethink maybe, I just can’t say. At the end of the day it was banned due it largely being an outdated sport, imo.
The anti hunt people have improved their evidence catching and therefore are coming up with unspeakable video like the fox being stabbed. This , and possibly the webinars (although I’m not sure that the majority cared) , have really caught some hunts, and sadly the governing body, with their pants down. This arrogance will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Just my thoughts. I love foxhounds, great goofy lumps, and hope they don’t die out as a breed but things really need to change now.
The MFHA need to condemn anyone proven to be illegal hunting or doing things like stabbing a fox with a fork.
Every accidental death of a fox, deer, cat, whatever, needs an apology and censure for the people that do it.
Hunting needs to start following the law.
The loopholes were handy but I think that attitudes have changed and it’s time to step up and deal.

BIG like

 

[Clodagh]

As I no longer hunt so don’t really see sabs in action, I also think the view of them being stupid Trotskyites is a bit dated.
I have only ever heard class bought into it when class has been an issue (Lord to peasant type attitudes). I think most of them don’t really care.