Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Fred66]

Another round of whataboutery.

No it’s about showing decent people the unacceptable side of hunt saboteurs.
Hunt monitors I have no problem with, they are there to monitor and reassure themselves (and others??) that the hunts are following a trail. They don‘t engage in abuse, intimidation or illegal activity. Hunt saboteurs are different and I can’t understand how any decent person can support their actions.

 

[Sossigpoker]

To quote this article, published in 2015, written by a man who fox hunter for over 20 years before giving up. These are some of the cruel things he witnessed:

Clifford, of Newport, South Wales, told of one truly horrendous moment when hounds pulled a pregnant fox from her den and ripped it apart.

Afterwards, the hunt master put the heel of his boot on the three squirming pups that had been inside her and crushed them.

He added: “On one occasion we had a live fox in a sack which we tipped out in the field, but before it was tipped out they allowed the hounds to bite into the sack.

“There were other times when foxes were brought from somewhere else, so they didn’t know where they were. This meant that they ran with their head up.

"A fox brought in was trapped in a wood and then allowed to run across a few fields into a farm where it fell into the slurry pit. The farmer’s son shot it.

“It fell in because it didn’t know the pit was there, simple as that.

“Another time they dragged a fox across a couple of fields into a dry ditch before flinging the rope over a branch of a tree.

"They hoisted it up, and then let it drop a bit so the hounds could bite it. They kept doing this to work the hounds up. In the end they just dropped it into the pack of hounds.

“I remember looking at the fox being kept in the milk churn and thinking, ‘Tomorrow, you’ll be dead’. They are lovely creatures. I am totally ashamed at my cruelty to those animals.

“It’s quite awful, quite barbaric really. What I myself did was quite awful.”

If this isn't getting a kick out of hurting animals then I honestly don't know what is. I don't think most people who eat meat relish the thought of how the animal died, whereas the man mentioned above clearly enjoyed stamping on the unborn cubs of the vixen.

So to those above saying nonsense and bollocks, maybe not everyone who hunts gets a kick out of the cruelty, but there sure as hell are a lot of people who did/do.

Jesus this is just sick.
As is anyone who takes part in it.

 

[Tiddlypom]

As we're talking about the misinformation and editing of footage, of which both pro and anti hunt are guilty, please can I point out that the the pro hunt FB page 'Hunting for Truth' which was quoted is notoriously ill-named. I wouldn't trust anything that they put out .

HFT take a particular interest in hunting in Cheshire, and delight in lumping sabs and monitors together, though the groups are very different.

 

[Sandstone1]

No it’s about showing decent people the unacceptable side of hunt saboteurs.
Hunt monitors I have no problem with, they are there to monitor and reassure themselves (and others??) that the hunts are following a trail. They don‘t engage in abuse, intimidation or illegal activity. Hunt saboteurs are different and I can’t understand how any decent person can support their actions.

How about the unacceptable side to fox hunting?
As in the clip shown, a deer killed which was filmed from a fair distance. Hounds clearly out of control. Is that acceptable to you?

 

[meleeka]

No it’s about showing decent people the unacceptable side of hunt saboteurs.
Hunt monitors I have no problem with, they are there to monitor and reassure themselves (and others??) that the hunts are following a trail. They don‘t engage in abuse, intimidation or illegal activity. Hunt saboteurs are different and I can’t understand how any decent person can support their actions.

This thread isn’t about sabs though.

 

[Sandstone1]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=686985829342551

In the interest of fairness another clip from another hunt. Beware bad language.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Hmm now who's engaging in deflection and "whataboutery" ?

With the greatest of respect can we not just agree both sides wind each other up and there is inappropriate behaviour on both sides?

This thread may not be about sabs but if you want to discuss an overall view of hunting they are part of it like it or not. They could also be part of finding a solution to the issue.

 

[palo1]

Another round of whataboutery.

It's not whataboutery at all; it is exactly the mirror of the sab argument about illegal hunting. There is illegal hunting and there is sab misinformation, violence, illegality and anti-social behaviour. That has to stop too. The reason I posted those things was because of the anti 'This has to stop' chant. There is very little recognition or acceptance from antis that many people are trying to hunt and now demonstrate hunting within the law, neither is there any recognition, acceptance or angst from antis about the kind of behaviour I have posted. No poster on here has justified any of the dire things posted about illegal hunting but I don't think a single anti posting has condemned some of the worst anti behaviour. Rustling plastic bags at horses legs, advocating snap bangs, calling hounds onto a road (especially when hounds on the road is something antis use very frequently as evidence of bad behaviour) poor animal welfare of animals under the care of LACS etc etc. This is not a 'clean' conflict of ideologies. That needs to be recognised by both sides.

 

[Sandstone1]

Hmm now who's engaging in deflection and "whataboutery" ?

With the greatest of respect can we not just agree both sides wind each other up and there is inappropriate behaviour on both sides?

This thread may not be about sabs but if you want to discuss an overall view of hunting they are part of it like it or not. They could also be part of finding a solution to the issue.

Well I did say I could copy and paste too.!
Its not really whatabouterery though is it as its clearly about illegal hunting and the way hunters treat sabs, its not all one sided is it?
I have never said there are not faults on both sides have I?
I also find it interesting to see the way the huntsmans horse is ridden and see spur marks on her side... If that horse was ridden in dressage for example they would be elimminated on welfare grounds
I would certainly not agree with hurting horses or hounds in the name of protesting. If it happens its wrong.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

It's a bit odd how folk seem to think that you have to be a huge supporter of hunt saboteurs to be against fox hunting. I don't particularly follow what is posted to saboteurs sites and can't imagine for a minute that all of them are whiter than white but they've managed to expose a worrying amount of horrific things through the use of covert filming that the general public would otherwise have had no clue about.

How the Kimblewick are still permitted to function for example is incomprehensible and for me again just confirms that there is no overall desire to bring trail hunting into this century.

 

[ycbm]

I don't think a single anti posting has condemned some of the worst anti behaviour.

I'm sure we have.
.

 

[palo1]

It's a bit odd how folk seem to think that you have to be a huge supporter of hunt saboteurs to be against fox hunting. I don't particularly follow what is posted to saboteurs sites and can't imagine for a minute that all of them are whiter than white but they've managed to expose a worrying amount of horrific things through the use of covert filming that the general public would otherwise have had no clue about.

How the Kimblewick are still permitted to function for example is incomprehensible.

Well the same is true of the other side too. I meet people who have no interest in hunting but who loathe the rural vigilantes. I don't think that is news to anyone!

 

[Gallop_Away]

Well I did say I could copy and paste too.!
Its not really whatabouterery though is it as its clearly about illegal hunting and the way hunters treat sabs, its not all one sided is it?
I have never said there are not faults on both sides have I?
I also find it interesting to see the way the huntsmans horse is ridden and see spur marks on her side...

It is whataboutery as instead of acknowledging that the sabs behaviour is inappropriate you just respond with "but what about what hunts are doing" so its whataboutery to a T I'm afraid.
Not one single person has said illegal hunting is acceptable. Not one.
In order to move forward sabs and hunts need to be prepared to acknowledge their own faults, not just respond with the attitude "but they're doing this!"

 

[palo1]

I'm sure we have.
.

There was some criticism of the Police Bill protestors who were also sabs throwing fireworks at horses but other than that, there is invariably a response of 'well they wouldn't need to do that if hunting was ok'. For the vast majority of antis the end appears to justify any means. Even when there is no 'end' in terms of evidence that is sufficient for prosecution; of which there have been some very significant ones but actually few in relation to the claims of illegality.

 

[Sandstone1]

I'm sure we have.
.

I have said that there are faults on both sides more than once and certainly do not agree with horses or hounds being harmed by either side.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I'm sure we have.
.

I don't think so... there has been the occasional mumble of "there's faults on both sides" which seems to be said with a grudge if I'm honest, but the response has usually been along the lines of "BUT LOOK WHAT HUNTS ARE DOING" and the implication that it's somehow the hunts own fault for sabs acting inappropriately even where the hunt isn't breaking any laws.
This attitude isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

 

[Sandstone1]

There was some criticism of the Police Bill protestors who were also sabs throwing fireworks at horses but other than that, there is invariably a response of 'well they wouldn't need to do that if hunting was ok'. For the vast majority of antis the end appears to justify any means. Even when there is no 'end' in terms of evidence that is sufficient for prosecution; of which there have been some very significant ones but actually few in relation to the claims of illegality.

So any comment on the language or violence in the clips? The sabs were at one point trying to open a gate for the hunt until they were abused by them. It was also a bridlepath they were being ordered off.

 

[Sandstone1]

I don't think so... there has been the occasional mumble of "there's faults on both sides" which seems to be said with a grudge if I'm honest, but the response has usually been along the lines of "BUT LOOK WHAT HUNTS ARE DOING" and the implication that it's somehow the hunts own fault for sabs acting inappropriately even where the hunt isn't breaking any laws.
This attitude isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

Well maybe it is BECAUSE OF WHAT HUNTS ARE DOING!!!!!

 

[ycbm]

There was some criticism of the Police Bill protestors who were also sabs throwing fireworks at horses but other than that, there is invariably a response of 'well they wouldn't need to do that if hunting was ok'. For the vast majority of antis the end appears to justify any means. Even when there is no 'end' in terms of evidence that is sufficient for prosecution; of which there have been some very significant ones but actually few in relation to the claims of illegality.

I don't think so..

I am certain that I have posted agreeing that sabs should not be acting illegally and also agreed that some of their activities are not defensible.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

So any comment on the language or violence in the clips? The sabs were at one point trying to open a gate for the hunt until they were abused by them. It was also a bridlepath they were being ordered off.

There you go again.......

 

[CanteringCarrot]

People read or extrapolate what they want to in order to fit their narrative ?‍

 

[Gallop_Away]

Well maybe it is BECAUSE OF WHAT HUNTS ARE DOING!!!!!

Not all hunts. Does the fact some hunts are hunting illegally justify sabs inappropriate behaviour towards legal hunts?

 

[ycbm]

Not all hunts. Does the fact some hunts are hunting illegally justify sabs inappropriate behaviour towards legal hunts?

Do you understand at all why they think you are lying?
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Do you understand at all why they think you are lying?
.

We've been over this many times. I do understand why there is a huge distrust of hunts but when our hunt have gone to great lengths to prove we are hunting within the law and still face constant abuse, you start to question whether they are motivated by animal welfare at all.
Also it is not them continuing to monitor hunts that is the inappropriate behaviour. It is the intimidation, harassment, trespass, bad language, and general thuggery they engage in.
You can not honestly tell me this behaviour is justified regardless of whether they believe us or not.

 

[Koweyka]

Well when you have the head of the MFHA convicted in crown court for advising hunts on “how to kill foxes and get away with it” and the hunting act which makes it incredibly difficult to secure a conviction due to the fallacy of “getting the golden shot” and the CPS setting the evidence bar very high. Then combine that with what was up until the conviction a very biased police force who also fell for the smokescreen, getting a hunting conviction was nigh on impossible.

Though times are changing and more police forces have seen through the smoke and we expect to see more prosecutions going forward.

Also there is a bill going through parliament at the moment that will hopefully stop the use of animal based scents on hunts, which will clearly cause issues for a lot of hunts, but after seventeen years you can’t say you haven’t had enough time to retrain your hounds can you.

 

[ycbm]

You can not honestly tell me this behaviour is justified regardless of whether they believe us or not.

I wouldn't try, I hope your "you" is "one" and not directed at me personally, because I would find that quite insulting.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I wouldn't try, I hope your "you" is "one" and not directed at me personally, because I would find that quite insulting.
.

Yes apologies if that was unclear. It was certainly meant in the sense of the general "you" as opposed to you personally ycbm

 

[Sandstone1]

There you go again.......

That is a completely related question.
I will put this very simply for you...
I do not condone any violence or abuse on either side. No one should be harming animals sabs or hunters. If sabs harm hounds or horses that is clearly wrong as it is if hunters do the same.
This thread is titled " HUNTING IS IN A SPOT OF BOTHER." it clearly is and mainly because hunts ARE hunting foxes. That is the plain truth. from the webinars to the fox stabbing incident to the Warwickshire killing THREE times in a matter of days.
IF trail hunting wants to survive its got to stop all this. FOX hunting is illegal and should be stopped NOW After all you have had 16 years to get used to it.
The fact is if there were no illegal hunting there would be no need for sabs but as clearly hunts can not be trusted to hunt within the law sabs will continue to go out.
Yes, there are faults on both sides here, but come on admit it to yourselves hunts break the law by hunting foxes. If they didnt there would be no need for sabs.

 

[ycbm]

I liken this quite a lot to football violence back in the 70's and 80's . It wasn't the fault of the owners and managers of football clubs that there was violence associated on a large scale with attendance at football matches. But it was within the powers of those people to stop it, and stop it they eventually did.

I believe it's within the power of trail hunting to stop the confrontation. This is what i would do in the same situation as you face.

Disassociate yourselves very publicly, with a big PR push, from illegal hunters. People inside hunting know who they are. Let everyone know that any hunt which is not a member of your new association can be assumed to be hunting illegally.

Lay your trails with a non-fox scent and film yourselves doing it. Film yourselves following that trail. Ask for official hunt monitoring from an independent organisation.

I'd be extremely surprised if your sabbing problems continued.
.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Something that I have been wondering about...could all hounds not be muzzled? The plastic mesh type muzzles so they can still smell normally. That would solve the issue of them 'accidentally' happening upon foxes or killing livestock or pets.