Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Forum Admin Team]

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[palo1]

Sandstone actually said hunters are killing foxes. The videos do prove that. I’m off now, this thread is irritating!

Yes, I get that some videos prove that hunters are killing foxes. Unfortunately that isn't always either the same as illegal hunting nor is it always possible to take that to court.; there are all manner of reasons why. It is a mess. I agree the thread is irritating and is not remotely constructive on the issue of hunting/illegal hunting/trail hunting.

 

[Tiddlypom]

This thread is not remotely constructive on the issue of hunting/illegal hunting/trail hunting???

I must be reading a different thread, then. There have been numerous constructive discussions on how hunting with hounds is to survive, and the airing of a lot of points by both pro and anti hunt. Most contributors do not wish all hunting to stop altogether, but agree that it can't limp on as it is in such a fractured fashion.

Clodagh, I was also coming on here today to ask if anyone knew why there is such long delay in charging the Essex fox stabber. The incident allegedly happened on 2/12/21, and the man had been arrested by the police by 23/12/21.

There can be little doubt from the CCTV video that the fox stabber must have broken the law in some way in his handling of the fox. How long is reasonable before he gets charged?

 

[Clodagh]

Clodagh, I was also coming on here today to ask if anyone knew why there is such long delay in charging the Essex fox stabber. The incident allegedly happened on 2/12/21, and the man had been arrested by the police by 23/12/21.

There can be little doubt from the CCTV video that the fox stabber must have broken the law in some way in his handling of the fox. How long is reasonable before he gets charged?

I don’t know anything about how the law works. I would have thought it was fairly clear cut, as you say. As someone who hunted for many years it was one of the worst things I have ever seen.

 

[stangs]

BUT a dead fox is NOT necessarily sufficient evidence under the current Hunting Act to prove illegality and you should know that.

Where would a sab find a corpse of a fox to use to make a fake video?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Scoop up a road kill then stash it in a freezer until needed.

Allegedly.

(Don't know if that is just a myth, mind).

 

[Regandal]

Where would a sab find a corpse of a fox to use to make a fake video?

Roadkill.

 

[palo1]

This thread is not remotely constructive on the issue of hunting/illegal hunting/trail hunting???

I must be reading a different thread, then. There have been numerous constructive discussions on how hunting with hounds is to survive, and the airing of a lot of points by both pro and anti hunt. Most contributors do not wish all hunting to stop altogether, but agree that it can't limp on as it is in such a fractured fashion.

Clodagh, I was also coming on here today to ask if anyone knew why there is such long delay in charging the Essex fox stabber. The incident allegedly happened on 2/12/21, and the man had been arrested by the police by 23/12/21.

There can be little doubt from the CCTV video that the fox stabber must have broken the law in some way in his handling of the fox. How long is reasonable before he gets charged?

Ok - I do agree that there has been constructive discussion in places on this thread though the to-ing and fro-ing over points that have been made repeatedly isn't useful I don't think. I have also wondered about the vile fox stabber - no idea why there hasn't been more coverage of that incident and I would have thought that was an entirely clear cut case of animal cruelty. Grim.

 

[Clodagh]

Scoop up a road kill then stash it in a freezer until needed.

Allegedly.

(Don't know if that is just a myth, mind).

However if it’s steaming when broken up it’s kind of unlikely, unless the sabs ran it over themselves at exactly the right moment?

 

[Gallop_Away]

What did I miss ??

 

[Koweyka]

Do people honestly believe we have freezers full of road kill foxes that we defrost in the morning of a hunt and strategically place exactly where the hunt are going to be …. some serious head wobbling needs to happen.

With regards to the Warwickshire they have been repeatedly filmed clearly killing foxes and deer this season, yes the in hunting act its the chase that is illegal, but a hunt that is repeatedly ”having an accident” has no business even leaving kennels as the hunt staff are clearly not fit for purpose and are demonstrating a total lack of control of the hounds.

I saw the South Durham hunt chased deer today across a road and one of the deer was hit by a car, the monitors had to call a police firearms officer to come and end her suffering after moving her out of the middle of the road, more wildlife killed dying for a “hobby” the Public have already been injured this hunt season after collisions with hounds and we are aware a hunt horse has also been killed. It will take a member of the public to killed before this issue of hounds spilling onto roads usually chasing an animal is properly addressed.

But while you have a hunting act full of loopholes wildlife will continue to die and we will continue to monitor and sab and you will have hunts like the Warwickshire helping hammer more nails into the trail hunt coffin of lies.

 

[YorksG]

I think we can all agree that the hunting act is a dire piece of legislation. The local pirate pack out with approx 15 couple of hounds and 15 people with shotguns shoes just how ridiculous it is.

 

[ycbm]

I think we can all agree that the hunting act is a dire piece of legislation. The local pirate pack out with approx 15 couple of hounds and 15 people with shotguns shoes just how ridiculous it is.

The problem there sounds as if it's the reluctance of various people to complain, investigate and prosecute. I believe the law allows for 2 dogs to flush towards guns. It doesn’t, as far as I know, allow for 15 pairs of hounds to flush towards 15 guns. It's pretty clear whether 30 hounds are hunting as a pack or not.

The problem with hunts with mounted followers is a refusal to accept the spirit of the law, and hiding behind the letter of the law to knowingly continue to kill foxes.
.

 

[YorksG]

I'm quite sure that each man with a gun would say that he had two dogs flushing to his gun and the fact that there were 15 others doing the same was mere coincidence, or that there is nothing in the law to prevent them all going at once, which I believe is probably absolutely true.

 

[palo1]

The problem there sounds as if it's the reluctance of various people to complain, investigate and prosecute. I believe the law allows for 2 dogs to flush towards guns. It doesn’t, as far as I know, allow for 15 pairs of hounds to flush towards 15 guns. It's pretty clear whether 30 hounds are hunting as a pack or not.

The problem with hunts with mounted followers is a refusal to accept the spirit of the law, and hiding behind the letter of the law to knowingly continue to kill foxes.
.

There is a huge problem with any law where the spirit and the letter of which are not utterly coherent and unified. In any situation, if there is room for interpretation or taking advantage of loopholes, people will use them to suit themselves. That is why legislation always needs very careful drafting. It IS a problem with hunting/the Hunting Act - not just hunting with mounted followers. I don't personally understand why there is not more discomfort with the number of foxes shot by gun packs tbh but there it is.

 

[ycbm]

I wonder how many more foxes need to be killed by hounds before all pro-hunting folk will condemn hunts deliberately, cynically, using the letter of the law to evade the spirit of the law.

Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is not. In the right context both are morally repugnant.

I don't personally understand why there is not more discomfort with the number of foxes shot by gun packs tbh but there it is.

I can answer for me, and that is that I don't have a problem with any fox being cleanly shot after being driven out of cover by hounds over a distance that a person can follow on foot.

While we are talking about foot packs, I have huge respect for whoever used to run the local beagle harrier pack. The ban came in, the pack was disbanded.

 

[Koweyka]

“I don't personally understand why there is not more discomfort with the number of foxes shot by gun packs tbh but there it is.”

I don’t understand where you get this sentiment from Palo, how do you know there isn’t ?

I know a foot pack was stopped a few weeks ago and if the Intel is there then I know people will go.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I don't personally understand why there is not more discomfort with the number of foxes shot by gun packs tbh but there it is.

I'm not sure what sort of hunting this refers to? Can you explain, please?

 

[palo1]

I'm not sure what sort of hunting this refers to? Can you explain, please?

As described above; a number of people with guns and a pack of hounds - often surrounding a covert with hounds flushing foxes (often many, many foxes) to the waiting guns. It is pest control using hounds and I don't necessarily have any problem with pest control but the number of foxes killed in this way is not insignificant. Under Scottish hunting regs hounds can flush to a gun but pirate packs are often made up of many guns. The use of many hounds is via use of a loophole where you can hunt a fox with 2 hounds...if you have enough people each 'gun' can be technically claiming to use 2 hounds. Death by gun is not a problem but the number of foxes killed seems unfortunate to me and the foxes don't stand a chance. I don't know how many are not killed but injured in this way as I have never seen this kind of gun pack hunting myself.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Pirate packs rather than registered packs, then?

 

[palo1]

Pirate packs rather than registered packs, then?

I guess so; I have never seen or heard of a registered pack doing this.

 

[moosea]

As described above; a number of people with guns and a pack of hounds - often surrounding a covert with hounds flushing foxes (often many, many foxes) to the waiting guns. It is pest control using hounds and I don't necessarily have any problem with pest control but the number of foxes killed in this way is not insignificant. Under Scottish hunting regs hounds can flush to a gun but pirate packs are often made up of many guns. The use of many hounds is via use of a loophole where you can hunt a fox with 2 hounds...if you have enough people each 'gun' can be technically claiming to use 2 hounds. Death by gun is not a problem but the number of foxes killed seems unfortunate to me and the foxes don't stand a chance. I don't know how many are not killed but injured in this way as I have never seen this kind of gun pack hunting myself.

You confuse me greatly Palo.

I understand from your post that you would support a return to traditional fox hunting with a mounted field and a pack of hounds and you would support the law being changed to make this possible?

One of the reasons for this is to control fox numbers?

But flushing with hounds to guns and killing many foxes offends you?
Why?

 

[palo1]

You confuse me greatly Palo.

I understand from your post that you would support a return to traditional fox hunting with a mounted field and a pack of hounds and you would support the law being changed to make this possible?

One of the reasons for this is to control fox numbers?

But flushing with hounds to guns and killing many foxes offends you?
Why?

I don't imagine the law will be changed at all. I would have preferred a better Hunting Act 17 years ago but I would not have wanted to see the end of hunting. I am happy to own the fact that I felt that traditional fox hunting was a reasonable way to manage both the fox population and hunted countryside. Traditional hunting did not kill huge numbers of foxes but had a more subtle impact on their numbers and behaviour. Along with many people and all of the independent reports I was never convinced by the cruelty argument against hunting but I entirely understand why the death of a fox, the moment of death, when hunted by hounds was brutal and unpalatable to people, even though that death was something a fox is superbly evolved and equipped to deal with in it's own territory. That argument has been repeated many times. Hunting with hounds is now illegal though so hunts should not be hunting foxes. What I find difficult with flushing to guns is the number of foxes killed, the lack of selection and the lack of opportunity for a fox to naturally evade a 'predator'. Many more foxes would be killed this way than ever would be in a traditional fox hunt. It has more impact on fox numbers and has very little, if any, benefit at all to the fox population or health or the management of the countryside. It does not help foxes either that shooting foxes all year round has become a sport; including the shooting of in-cub vixens and nursing vixens. I understand about pest control and farmers should be entitled to deal with pests but shooting foxes in large numbers in this way doesn't sit well with me at all. I know that my views are contrary to others. I don't support illegal hunting.

 

[Quigleyandme]

I wouldn’t normally post on this thread but I support Palo1 in this. When foxes are pursued by hounds they are either caught and killed or get away. The vast majority get away and older and less healthy foxes were more likely to succumb very possibly saving them from months of slow starvation. Foxes that are shot are often only wounded to die a slow and agonising death. An eerie noise coming from behind a pile of jumps at my yard in Devon came from a lactating vixen with her lower jaw shot away. My neighbour was trapping foxes year round and shooting them in the cages he only visited once every few days. Longer in bad weather. Many were lactating, in cub or cubs. Dog foxes without a litter to feed were more canny it would appear. There has been a lot of illegal or just plain rude, arrogant and stupid behaviour by hunt servants and fields and woefully poor control of hounds reported and certainly the governance of hunts needs radical reform.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Quigley, there are a number of regular posters on here, me included, who agree that the overall health of the fox population is poorer now since the introduction of the Hunting Act.

Foxes were encouraged and protected out of the hunting season in order to provide sport in season.

But those times have gone.

 

[Fred66]

Quigley, there are a number of regular posters on here, me included, who agree that the overall health of the fox population is poorer now since the introduction of the Hunting Act.

Foxes were encouraged and protected out of the hunting season in order to provide sport in season.

But those times have gone.

Could someone enlighten me then as to why people who profess to care about animals fought so hard for this law which appears to have no benefit whatsoever ?

 

[marmalade76]

Could someone enlighten me then as to why people who profess to care about animals fought so hard for this law which appears to have no benefit whatsoever ?

Because for a lot of antis, it's a class thing, for the rest, it's ignorance.

 

[Koweyka]

Because for a lot of antis, it's a class thing, for the rest, it's ignorance.

What a ridiculous comment, it’s nothing to do with class, frankly anyone who hunts and kills animals for sport and fun doesn’t possess announce of class. The class war is peddled by the Pro Hunt maybe it makes you feel better about yourselves who knows …

 

[Gallop_Away]

It may not be about "class" but I have certainly seen behaviour from sabs and anti hunt that make me believe it doesn't have anything to do with animal welfare.....

 

[Koweyka]

Could someone enlighten me then as to why people who profess to care about animals fought so hard for this law which appears to have no benefit whatsoever ?

Well it’s well known that hunts used to feed foxes and keep them in certain areas so they has something to chase, many hunts still do, so it was in the hunts interest to make sure the foxes in their area were all well fed and healthy, then they could pop them in a bag to be released before the hounds or the cubs dug out by the terrier men, to feed to them hounds take your pick as to why it became illegal. It was and is horrendously cruel.