I cant make up my mind...thoughts on hunting

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I am not new to H&Ho but have made this new account as I don't want to be identified

I can't make up my mind aboutbhunting. It was something I wanted to try so I went out a couple of times and I enjoyed it from a riding point of view. While I don't have any problems with Fox control and am comfortable with the shooting of vermin I don't believe in unneccesary suffering and have questioned whether being flushed by hounds causes unneccesary stress. However I must stress on the odd occasion I have been out I witnessed nothing untoward.

But I do question whether it is something I want to be associated with. Now as someone with a farming background I am well aware of how footage and news can be manipulated into falsehood. But beyond that I have read stories of hunts being caught in some horrific acts....breaking the law....including one of the packs I have been out with....albeit many years ago,

This does cause me concern. I am in Scotland and we don't have drag or trail hunts here, it is all done as Fox control. I just can't make up my mind. .... what are everyones views bothfor and against? I think I need more education to get a well informed and balanced view......
 
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I can't make my mind up either. I'm ok with that. I can respect other peoples pont of view I don't see why I need to have an opinion.

The reason why I would like to learn more and feel better about it one way or another is because I did enjoy it but am in two minds over whether it's something I want to continue to rake part in and "be associated with" or just decide I enjoyed it and quit while my experience is only positive
 

Melody Grey

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There is an awful lot in you post OP that I identify with; I grew up 'proper' hunting before the ban in a farming community so I can't say I disagree with it wholesale. I disagree with the sense of entitlement that sometimes seems to come with hunting (expectation to go onto land etc) but agree that fox numbers need to be controlled by some means. I think society has moved on from this being through hunting though.

I will attend hunt rides as I love the sense of occasion and the thrill of riding with others, so far haven't had to tackle riding with hounds for many years (not an awful lot of hunting in my area). It would be a real shame for the traditional elements (formal dress, riding together, jumping hedges and ditches, sherry, social events and charity fund raising) to be lost altogether though I think. Also, I think the hunt still has a role to play within the rural economy and hope that it somehow finds a way to survive in a way which is acceptable to society (ideal world thoughts!)
 

windand rain

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I am ambivalent as I can see both sides, the rider side and entitlement bothers me but the fox killing doesnt as it to me is the best way to control them seen too many foxes die in agony or live with drastic injuries to accept that shooting is an option. Killed by hounds is a difinitive they either escape or are killed.
 

Kat

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I hunt with bloodhounds, I won't risk being associated with illegal hunting activities because it could be catastrophic for my career. I don't particularly have a problem with fox control but one of our local fox hunts have been in trouble with the police.

Our bloodhound pack are friendly approachable and inclusive so I enjoy supporting them.
 

Bernster

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Kat - sane here. I’ve been out with 3 trail/ex foxhound packs and I prefer the atmosphere and organisation of the drag hunt. Plus I don’t have any internal philosophical debate (or sabs) to wrangle with!
 

Sandstone1

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I disagree with it on several points. Firstly, it is now illegal but some hunts do still hunt foxes and get away with it.
Yes foxes do need to be controlled but they a far bigger problem in towns and cities than in the countryside. This is due to the much easier supply of food from bins etc.
You dont get the hunt in cities!
The upset and damage the hunt causes to land and another animals. I know some horses who go absolutely mental when they hear or see the hunt and very often no prior notice is given.
The attitude of a lot of hunt followers who think the world should stop for them. Blocking roads, churning up grass verges riding on roads in dark and dull conditions without any high viz.
I'm afraid it is a out dated tradition.
 

TPO

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There used to be a drag hunt in scotland (Kingdom Drag hounds). I googled but couldnt find any details so I'm assuming that its closed.

I tried searching on FB but only found sab pages.

I share much of the same opinions as OP. I am from a farming/hunting (falconry mainly) family and am fairly pragmatic about things. I know the devastation that foxes can cause but equally the hunting by dogs is not a quick and effective way to go that I'd choose for myself 😏

Whether you agree with (fox) hunting or not the law is the law. Packs who break those laws, not matter their personal beliefs, should be prosecuted.

I slightly fell down the rabbit hole on a sab page watching videos and it wasnt pretty. There are some very underweight (not lean because they are fit) hounds, hounds trapped in fences and apparently left until sabs released them, a lamb killed by hounds and house chasing a field of llamas. I always thought, at the very least, that the huntsmen always had control of their dogs and that the hounds were well looked after.

So after this mornings contemplating fox hunting is a no from me.
 

Equine_Dream

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I feel your pain op. Its so controversial.

I used to be 100% against hunting. It was cruel evil and anyone who took part must be sick in the head.

Then I met my husband who was from a farming background. I started to see more of the other side of the coin. The damage caused by foxes. The affect it can have on farmers. While I still didn't agree with hunting I started to understand why others agreed with it and the need to control the fox population.

I also started to understand that alternative means of fox control were far from fool proof. Is a fox slowly dying from infection/blood loss from a badly aimed shot, or being poisoned and dying a slow excruciating death, any better than at the teeth of a pack of hounds?

I have been on perfectly legal trail hunts and I thoroughly enjoy the ride. My horses really enjoy themselves and I honestly know the pack I hunt with hunt within the law (they wouldn't be welcome on much of the land we ride on if the landowners got a wiff of illegal hunting). I still don't know how I feel about fox hunting itself from a moral point of view.

I have no respect for SABS or what they stand for. I 100% believe they don't give a toss about animal rights. I have witnessed them screaming in horse's faces, kicking out at hounds and calling 4yo children "murdering ****". They are nothing but thugs.
 

Mule

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There used to be a drag hunt in scotland (Kingdom Drag hounds). I googled but couldnt find any details so I'm assuming that its closed.

I tried searching on FB but only found sab pages.

I share much of the same opinions as OP. I am from a farming/hunting (falconry mainly) family and am fairly pragmatic about things. I know the devastation that foxes can cause but equally the hunting by dogs is not a quick and effective way to go that I'd choose for myself 😏

Whether you agree with (fox) hunting or not the law is the law. Packs who break those laws, not matter their personal beliefs, should be prosecuted.

I slightly fell down the rabbit hole on a sab page watching videos and it wasnt pretty. There are some very underweight (not lean because they are fit) hounds, hounds trapped in fences and apparently left until sabs released them, a lamb killed by hounds and house chasing a field of llamas. I always thought, at the very least, that the huntsmen always had control of their dogs and that the hounds were well looked after.

So after this mornings contemplating fox hunting is a no from me.
Why would a hunt deliberately leave their hounds behind? A lot of work goes into training them.

At any rate, I don't know how I feel about hunting. I've only gone with out with my local drag hunt. I suppose I could try the real thing (it's legal where I am) but I don't think I'd bother when I can drag hunt. I haven't even done that in a while. I'm more into hacking and schooling these days (much to the beast's disgust)😀
 
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TPO

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Why would a hunt deliberately leave their hounds behind? A lot of work goes into training them.

At any rate, I don't know how I feel about hunting. I've only gone with out with my local drag hunt. I suppose I could try the real thing (it's legal where I am) but I don't think I'd bother when I can drag hunt. I haven't even done that in a while. I'm more into hacking and schooling these days (much to the beast's disgust)😀

It was caught up in a barbed wire fence and guessing hunt lost sight/track of it. The sabs released it and it ran back to the pack.

Dont know why a hunt would have skinny hounds either and/or take it out hunting but they did and there is photographic and video evidence.
 

MotherOfChickens

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I hunted as a teen down in England. These days I cannot hold with chasing a wild animal with a pack of dogs-any argument for it is outdated (I also dislike sabs with a passion!). I'm in Scotland, no hunts in the immediate vicinity -fox control is by a man with a gun and seems to work well enough and none of the farmers around here would let a hunt on their land for fox control or not.
 

Mule

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I hunted as a teen down in England. These days I cannot hold with chasing a wild animal with a pack of dogs-any argument for it is outdated (I also dislike sabs with a passion!). I'm in Scotland, no hunts in the immediate vicinity -fox control is by a man with a gun and seems to work well enough and none of the farmers around here would let a hunt on their land for fox control or not.
So is hunting with hounds legal in Scotland?
 

Clodagh

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In Scotland you can flush a fox to guns using hounds. I don't know much about it but there is an article in this weeks Shooting Times and it sounds pretty well organised.

I hunted in the past, pre ban, and the ethics never bothered me at all. I haven't been for years now.
 

Jellymoon

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I completely get where you are coming from and relate to everything you say.
I hunted as a teen when before the ban with a well-known Leics pack and thoroughly enjoyed it, never experienced anything untoward. But then I was a teen and was probably just focussed on having a good time on my horse.
I have recently taken it up again as a middle aged grown up, and have so far been out with three different hunts. One was hunting within the law as far as I could tell but it wasn’t very exiting, nothing much seemed to happen and it wasn’t really worth the spend. Maybe the trails weren’t very well-laid and the hounds weren’t picking them up. The second one was most definitely not hunting within the law and left me with a very uncomfortable feeling. It was a bit more exciting though.
The third was hunting within the law as far as I could tell while trying to keep up and jump all the jumps! Was super fun and really nice bunch of people. Not up in Scotland though, sadly.
So my advice would be to do some research and maybe try some different packs, see how you feel.
 

Jellymoon

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Oh, and yes, hunt rides (without hounds but in a group) or hunting rides (with hounds but not killing anything, like extreme hound exercise) are absolutely brilliant and worth seeking out. A few of our foxhunting packs do these as well as normal hunting days.
 
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I disagree with it on several points. Firstly, it is now illegal but some hunts do still hunt foxes and get away with it.
Yes foxes do need to be controlled but they a far bigger problem in towns and cities than in the countryside. This is due to the much easier supply of food from bins etc.
You dont get the hunt in cities!
The upset and damage the hunt causes to land and another animals. I know some horses who go absolutely mental when they hear or see the hunt and very often no prior notice is given.
The attitude of a lot of hunt followers who think the world should stop for them. Blocking roads, churning up grass verges riding on roads in dark and dull conditions without any high viz.
I'm afraid it is a out dated tradition.

In Scotland it is still legal to hunt foxes but the hounds should only flush to a gun. Exactly what happened so nothing illegal about it. It was also over farmland with permission from the farmer who was incredibly welcoming and happy to have everyone there. I know it isn't always like this but in the instance I seen it was all welcoming to his land, very friendly Tec x
 
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Thanks for all the responses. I am glad it is not just me... I always thought people were either for or against. I really wish in could try drag. Funny enough I have an English friend who lives up here but only hunts in England. She finds hunting boring up here and openly admits it's because it is actually for a "purpose" i.e. Fox control and she finds it slow and too much hanging around. Whereas the packs she goes with down south (not sure who) it is more of a "jolly" for want of a better word. It's a fun and fast paced day out. Thrills and spills. Obviously I can't attest to how accurate that description is I just take what she says as being correct
 

L&M

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I also understand what you are saying. I come from a farming/hunting background and with my partner being field master for our local pack, am still reasonably involved. I agree that hunting with hounds is an effective method of fox control, as tends to seek out the weak and the sick, and hate the thought of snares and traps as an alternative, and the suffering they could cause.

My cob has hunted since 4 yrs old - it is a way of life for him and he adores it. He finds the warmer weather very tedious, but at the sound of hounds come Autumn, turns into turbo cob. What I love about hunting is the faster pace riding, the challenge of obstacles, and getting to ride over stunning countryside that we wouldn't otherwise have access too. I have made life long friends on the hunting field and our hunting community is like extended family.

Our pack religiously lay a trail and 'attempt' to hunt within the law - but this is where the problem lies as your average hound does not understand the Hunting Act. A live trail is of more interest than the bottled one we import from the USA, and however well schooled the hounds are, there will always be occasions where things 'go wrong'.

But what I really hate about the current hunting environment is the bias and spin thrown about in the battle between the monitors and hunt supporters. I follow the Shropshire monitors page and they often write complete drivel - but their readers believe it, painting the hunting folk in an even worse light. But the way some hunts behave is equally intolerable.

Years ago I was proud to be a member of the hunting community - now I am very careful who I tell. I don't even wear my hunt supporters fleece in public anymore, for fear of abuse, and what way of life is that to live?

And this is what I think will kill hunting off, more than anything else. If there was a viable alternative, I would love to remain involved, but we have no drag packs near us, so will have one very grumpy horse when hunting goes.
 
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ycbm

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Our pack religiously lay a trail and 'attempt' to hunt within the law - but this is where the problem lies as your average hound does not understand the Hunting Act. A live trail is of more interest than the bottled one we import from the USA, and however well schooled the hounds are, there will always be occasions where things 'go wrong'.

.


I'm sorry but this is an argument that I can`t accept. Over many years, I have hunted with four different drag packs. I have seen hounds pick up a fox scent quite a few times, but they were always rapidly called off and put on the right scent, which they then stuck to.

If drag packs can reliably control hounds like this, so could ex fox packs.

If they wanted to.

.
 

L&M

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But those hounds have been specifically trained to hunt a trail - a very different art...…...although the hound lines that hunted fox should be long retired, their genetics won't.

I remember when our pack started trail hunting - they even drafted in some drag hounds that had never hunted live quarry as a positive influence, but remember the huntsman saying that it was nigh on impossible to get ours to adjust.

So although I take on board your view, and even agree with it on some points, would at least like you to respect that 'some' packs do really try to hunt within the law.
 

Bellaboo18

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I disagree with it on several points. Firstly, it is now illegal but some hunts do still hunt foxes and get away with it.
Yes foxes do need to be controlled but they a far bigger problem in towns and cities than in the countryside. This is due to the much easier supply of food from bins etc.
You dont get the hunt in cities!
The upset and damage the hunt causes to land and another animals. I know some horses who go absolutely mental when they hear or see the hunt and very often no prior notice is given.
The attitude of a lot of hunt followers who think the world should stop for them. Blocking roads, churning up grass verges riding on roads in dark and dull conditions without any high viz.
I'm afraid it is a out dated tradition.

I dislike everything about hunting. Sandstone put it well.
Our local hunt often go across the fields at our livery yard where they've been told they aren't welcome. They show a complete lack of respect and anyway I don't agree with killing for sport.
 

Tiddlypom

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When you see practices like this, both recent:-

Fox cruelty:- South Herefordshire Hunt pair found guilty https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-48584227

And this:- Kimblewick Hunt: Men released trapped fox 'into the path of a hunt' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-50241821

Going on in ‘trail’ packs, I cannot see how anyone would continue to defend modern hunting. The Hunting fraternity has kept very quiet about the Kimblewick case, which is not surprising as the Head of Hunting at the Countryside Alliance is also Field Master for the Kimblewick Hunt.

Busted.
 

ycbm

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But those hounds have been specifically trained to hunt a trail - a very different art...…...although the hound lines that hunted fox should be long retired, their genetics won't.

I remember when our pack started trail hunting - they even drafted in some drag hounds that had never hunted live quarry as a positive influence, but remember the huntsman saying that it was nigh on impossible to get ours to adjust.

So although I take on board your view, and even agree with it on some points, would at least like you to respect that 'some' packs do really try to hunt within the law.

They are all fox hounds. It's the training, not the genetics.

When fox hounds out drag hunting pick up fox they get very, very excited and you can hear the difference. And they get well whipped if they dont respond to being called off.

There has been over ten years to train fox hounds which used to fox hunt to behave the same as fox hounds which drag hunt. They're a completely different set of hounds by now.

I understand that you try to hunt within the letter of the law. But I don't believe that the law requires you to try hard enough to hunt without catching fox.
.
 
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