Mule
Well-Known Member
I love riding across miles of open countryside too. That's the real attraction of it for me.
I cant make up my mind...thoughts on hunting
- Thread starter dreamerinreallife
- Start date
planete
Well-Known Member
I have got the instincts of a cave woman and used to get very excited following the hunt even on foot many moons ago. My opinions have changed though as I started seeing through the 'tradition', rituals and 'glamour'. In spite of many ethical hunt people it is a breeding ground for the cruel side of many, it is no more efficient at controlling foxes than a skilled man with a gun and it is unethical because it is enjoyment provided by a protracted pursuit of the quarry with a view to kill. I now think there are enough instances of fox hunts breaking the law to justify a total ban so I am no longer a fence sitter.
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
I went hunting as a child, through Pony Club and was a subscriber too for a few years. I greatly enjoyed it, didn't think it was cruel and I am glad I had those experiences. Hunting is what people did in winter, there were no indoor schools, no competitions to go to and it was considered part of every horse and rider's education and a test of courage for horse and rider. I heard that one season the hunt killed over 90 foxes.
Hunting became difficult after children, mostly because OH didn't want me to hunt, not from ethical reasons but because he knew a girl very badly injured in a hunting fall and "didn't want to be left with 3 children to look after." I did hunt a couple of times after children, but havent' been for 30 years on horseback.
I opposed the ban on hunting, but have become far more ambivalent it now. The law was appallingly drawn up and allows the uncertainity to exist. Even years ago I thought that the future was trail/drag hunting with hunts at least in counties like my own where the villages have expanded and the roads every more crowded, and having dozens of horses and a pack of hounds galloping up and down the roads isn't really on. Land ownership has also changed, with livery yards where there were once just farms with empty fields in winter, so many barns made into houses so many more people living out in the countryside and younger farmers prefer to go shooting rather than hunting and don't much appreciate horses galloping over their fields, where their fathers had either ridden and even welcomed the hunt. It is, like many other things, a different world now. Just as an aside I can remember some of the older members of the hunt, ones who could probably remember me on a horse, used to say that it was different, the people were different and I think they were say that some seemed to have less knowledge about the countryside - but maybe it was just snobbery about the passing of the old days.
Although all our hunt literature states that they are "hunting within the law" I'm not sure what that means, and I don't even go on foot now as I don't feel I can really support hidden fox hunting which is against the law. Also, with all the trouble with sabs they don't even publish a list of meets so I couldn't just decide to go one day. This is making it even more of a "closed shop."
If I had drawn up the law I would have said "the only hunting with a pack of hounds is following an artificial trail, set out by humans either on horseback, running or bike."
Hunting became difficult after children, mostly because OH didn't want me to hunt, not from ethical reasons but because he knew a girl very badly injured in a hunting fall and "didn't want to be left with 3 children to look after." I did hunt a couple of times after children, but havent' been for 30 years on horseback.
I opposed the ban on hunting, but have become far more ambivalent it now. The law was appallingly drawn up and allows the uncertainity to exist. Even years ago I thought that the future was trail/drag hunting with hunts at least in counties like my own where the villages have expanded and the roads every more crowded, and having dozens of horses and a pack of hounds galloping up and down the roads isn't really on. Land ownership has also changed, with livery yards where there were once just farms with empty fields in winter, so many barns made into houses so many more people living out in the countryside and younger farmers prefer to go shooting rather than hunting and don't much appreciate horses galloping over their fields, where their fathers had either ridden and even welcomed the hunt. It is, like many other things, a different world now. Just as an aside I can remember some of the older members of the hunt, ones who could probably remember me on a horse, used to say that it was different, the people were different and I think they were say that some seemed to have less knowledge about the countryside - but maybe it was just snobbery about the passing of the old days.
Although all our hunt literature states that they are "hunting within the law" I'm not sure what that means, and I don't even go on foot now as I don't feel I can really support hidden fox hunting which is against the law. Also, with all the trouble with sabs they don't even publish a list of meets so I couldn't just decide to go one day. This is making it even more of a "closed shop."
If I had drawn up the law I would have said "the only hunting with a pack of hounds is following an artificial trail, set out by humans either on horseback, running or bike."
palo1
Well-Known Member
I hunted pre-ban and still enjoy hunting post ban. In our part of the world it is still quite an important community thing. The local hunt is largely welcomed by farmers and locals alike and the only negativity we have had is when car followers block the roads! Some farmers have problems with particular individuals usually due to unrelated and mostly agricultural arguments and subsequently one neighbour or another will decline to have the hunt visit. New country is opened and closed to us through the years as arguments/alliegances and farming practices wax and wane. We very occasionally meet hunt monitors and both hunt followers and monitors tend to be polite for the brief periods that we are in contact. We are often in quite public areas too. It is notable that on the whole the two lots of people never actually know each other and I have only seen monitors out twice in the last 7 years. I have hunted for many years and have been fortunate that pre-ban never saw anything which made me feel uncomfortable. The death of a fox by hounds is brutal but instant and I have been fortunate that those hunts I have known have been entirely professional in dealing with foxes. Post ban, it is more difficult because hunts are trying to anticipate how they may be 'caught out' and it is not easy to know exactly how close to the right line hounds are but it is still possible to watch and listen to hounds working out a line across natural country and to do your best to keep with them!! It is a great challenge and brilliant company if you are lucky!! More people are enjoying hunting now than pre-ban remember so all is not doom and gloom.
I am sure that there are horribly cruel people attracted to any kind of pest or animal control - the killing of animals for any reason, if it is done directly is likely to brutalise people to a degree, even if that would never be their choice. That includes those that work in slaughter houses, farmers who have to kill an animal for humane reasons, those that kill rats and possibly, to a degree even vets who have to deal with some difficult and very necessary deaths. Most of us, most of the time don't have to get near the dirty end of any kind of animal control even though many of us eat meat. This brutalising influence is one of the best arguments I think for vegetarianism.
I never agreed with the hunting ban and felt horrified at the time that such an iconic and culturally significant animal as the fox would be reduced to to being controlled by any means other than by hounds. In Britain, as in all places where foxes naturally occur, they evolved to be predated on by bears and wolves. There is no difference to a fox being hunted by hounds as by wolves. We got rid of our wolves here!! Pre ban and in places where foxes are still hunted by hounds, foxes show very very few signs of distress or behaviour modification during a hunt; they have been filmed even hunting and killing on their own account. The final part of a hunt, whether by hounds or wolves is certainly stressful but there is a totally binary outcome and I am (or would be) at peace with that.
Many people who opposed fox hunting never witnessed or tried to understand it and seemed to make all sorts of assumptions about it. If you remove some of the ghastly, entitled people who traditionally participated it would probably have been easier for people to accept. As it is, ordinary people still take part in a minority activity yet are in fear of harrassment by masked and potentially violent antis. That simply wouldnt be tolerated in cities or towns for any reason. It just feels like class and cultural warfare to be honest and I really don't think it has anything to do with animal welfare. If it did, those vociferous antis would better occupy their time worrying about and doing something about factory farming, farm animal welfare, rural conservation, puppy farming and other issues which have a huge impact on animal welfare.
I am sure that there are horribly cruel people attracted to any kind of pest or animal control - the killing of animals for any reason, if it is done directly is likely to brutalise people to a degree, even if that would never be their choice. That includes those that work in slaughter houses, farmers who have to kill an animal for humane reasons, those that kill rats and possibly, to a degree even vets who have to deal with some difficult and very necessary deaths. Most of us, most of the time don't have to get near the dirty end of any kind of animal control even though many of us eat meat. This brutalising influence is one of the best arguments I think for vegetarianism.
I never agreed with the hunting ban and felt horrified at the time that such an iconic and culturally significant animal as the fox would be reduced to to being controlled by any means other than by hounds. In Britain, as in all places where foxes naturally occur, they evolved to be predated on by bears and wolves. There is no difference to a fox being hunted by hounds as by wolves. We got rid of our wolves here!! Pre ban and in places where foxes are still hunted by hounds, foxes show very very few signs of distress or behaviour modification during a hunt; they have been filmed even hunting and killing on their own account. The final part of a hunt, whether by hounds or wolves is certainly stressful but there is a totally binary outcome and I am (or would be) at peace with that.
Many people who opposed fox hunting never witnessed or tried to understand it and seemed to make all sorts of assumptions about it. If you remove some of the ghastly, entitled people who traditionally participated it would probably have been easier for people to accept. As it is, ordinary people still take part in a minority activity yet are in fear of harrassment by masked and potentially violent antis. That simply wouldnt be tolerated in cities or towns for any reason. It just feels like class and cultural warfare to be honest and I really don't think it has anything to do with animal welfare. If it did, those vociferous antis would better occupy their time worrying about and doing something about factory farming, farm animal welfare, rural conservation, puppy farming and other issues which have a huge impact on animal welfare.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
It doesn’t?
How about the South Herefordshire Hunt and the Kimblewick Hunt cases referred to in post #28? Foul practices against animals caught on remote CCTV. How rare do you think that kind of stuff is in the hunting fraternity? If it hadn’t been captured on video and the evidence taken to court, the pro hunt side would deny that anything like it ever happens.
All trail packs insist that they hunt legally and that they are welcomed into the countryside. Some of them may be telling the truth, but others most certainly are not. Trying to deflect genuine concerns about trail hunt conduct with some whataboutery is disingenuous.
FWIW, as I have said previously on the Hunting board, I believe that the countryside and wildlife were better managed pre ban, in order to provide sport. I hunted pre ban. But times and the law have changed.
Going back to the OP, I do not know how hunting now works in Scotland, barring knowing that hounds are allowed to flush to guns, which sounds very hairy to me (I hate guns).
Bellaboo18
Well-Known Member
It's definitely about animal welfare for me.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Very good post to here.
I don't think this is much of a class thing now, I think they are up in arms about other things too. They have the rest of the week and the closed season.
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palo1
Well-Known Member
Well maybe not a class thing so much as a cultural one...
Bellaboo18
Well-Known Member
No still animal welfare for me
palo1
Well-Known Member
I get the outrage about the SHH and The Kimblewick; I don't know much about the Kimblewick incident tbh but what happened at the SHH is simply disgusting animal cruelty and has no place at all in any kind of organised hunt or form of animal control. I hate to think how that set of practices came about as well. The result in hunting circles is that the SHH and all who hunted with her are pariahs and openly unwelcome in many other places. Before this incident, oddly enough the SHH was much more of a 'closed' circle than many would have wanted; not especially welcoming of visitors and with a long history of conflict about hunting practices etc amongst themselves. At least that is the view of many I know who were closer to them. I wonder if that was because people within the hunt knew there was something vile and rotten or at least were uncomfortable enough to not want to open their group to others. I cannot say what happens with other hunts - I only know where I hunt our hunt staff would not have time, inclination or the stomach for anything like that. I know them well enough and see enough of their daily lives to be very confident that this kind of thing is logistically and personally almost impossible. At the time of the SHH incident, anyone I knew felt horrified and disgusted by what they did - it's just not part of what hunting is/stands for/has been traditionally.
palo1
Well-Known Member
How do you deal with rats Bellaboo18? Genuine question as they too are sentient, highly intelligent and social animals which we feel the need to control. It bothers me enormously that somehow it is not hypocritical to not mind about rats being killed in a horrible fashion (or many horrible ways) yet have a call to arms about killing foxes in a way that is as close to 'natural' as could be in this time?
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Palo1, this is the video footage taken on 1 Jan 2019 that helped to convict two ‘countrymen’ employed by the Kimblewick Hunt. It’s interesting that while the Hunting fraternity were quick to condemn the South Herefordshire incident, there’s hardly been a peep out of them about the Kimblewick Hunt. The two men are due be sentenced later this month, they are facing custodial sentences for ‘causing unnecessary suffering to a protected animal.’ They prodded a fox out of an artificial earth with drainage rods, grabbed it by its tail and released it shortly before hounds arrived. They are clearly interacting with and doing the bidding of unseen others who were not in court.
The Head of Hunting at the Countryside Alliance, who should at all times demonstrate good practice for others to follow, is Field Master of the Kimblewick Hunt.
The Head of Hunting at the Countryside Alliance, who should at all times demonstrate good practice for others to follow, is Field Master of the Kimblewick Hunt.
Bellaboo18
Well-Known Member
Honestly, I've never had a rat problem and therefore never had to control them. I definitely wouldn't feel it was appropriate to throw a kill the rat party though.
I'm quite a live and let live person so am fine that we have different opinions but I think you're wrong in assuming animal welfare isn't the main argument against fox hunting. I (also genuinely) wonder if it makes you feel better thinking people oppose hunting due to class/culture.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I think it's the chase, the glorying in a long chase in hunting reports, the digging (or poking!) out, the cubbing to train young hounds, and the hound injuries and deaths which bother people more than the quick moment of the kill. It does me, anyway.
Nobody chases a rat before killing it except a cat.
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palo1
Well-Known Member
No, it doesn't make me feel better or different viewing opposition to hunting as a class or cultural thing - it's just how I see it. I have, in my lifetime been pro, anti and completely ambivalent to hunting so have shared views and experiences with quite a variety of people about it. My experience is that many people opposed to hunting use class or cultural terms of reference with regard to those who are involved in it.
Sadly, I expect you have never had a rat problem because others around you (whether living in rural or urban areas) are 'dealing' with rats on your behalf. It is unrealistic to expect them not to have to be dealt with as they are hugely successful and unfortunately not terribly compatible with how most people wish to live. I don't think anyone would 'throw a kill a rat party'!!! Is that how you seen illegal hunting do you think? (as in 'throwing a let's kill a fox party''). That might suggest that you have very little experience of how people in the countryside who want to deal with a problem fox might think. Where foxes are controlled by guns, for example, do you think that those people suggest that? In my experience that is absolutely not how it works. There is a world of misunderstanding in this subject but perhaps the more people share their views and opinions the better.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I think terriers probably chase rats and that is legal. I get your point about the way hunting reports might be though I don't perceive the 'glorying' myself. That always seems to me to be an oppositional construct and interpretation. In all the historical hunting reports I have read the longer 'hunts' or 'points' reference the quite astounding qualities of a fox in terms of cunning, stamina and knowledge of evasion. They are remarkable animals. When I hunted as a child foxes were hugely respected by the hunting community. Most people I know that hunt will see foxes in the summer and if they are healthy, wish them well and to live a good life. But hell, there seems little point in me banging on with the same things that have been said many times before where people have no interest in listening or considering an alternative approach...
Equi
Well-Known Member
This a lot. I have in 20 years seen one fox (it was in my field very dead with a bashed in head and a horse looking very smug) but i know any others are taken care of by the neighbours who raise birds, foals and hunt. With very small equines i have to say this gives me a lot of reassurance. I worry more about my other neighbours german shepherds.. I have never seen a rat either and i have seen maybe 5 rabbits but they never stay long. A rabbit hole to a miniature leg would be a death sentence. I have never hunted (too chicken) but im highly thankful that my neighbours take care of the land and that includes mine..so i live a fairly stress free life.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Both sides of this discussion feel the same. There isn't really any middle ground on this issue. You either feel its acceptable to chase an animal before you kill it, and all the other stuff that goes with that activity, or you don't.
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Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Please don't go down the usual pro/anti - 'Well I won't change your point so I'm gunna havva strop reply' I may not always agree with you but I respect your opinion and how you feel about it.
I am not especially anti or pro nowadays but I agree with ycbm, either you are happy to chase an animal and then kill it or you are not. I have had some far better days hunting rats with terriers than foxes with hounds, and have enjoyed both in the past.
Bernster
Well-Known Member
At least there are some more measured and considered points being made on this thread than many threads on here. It’s obv a very emotive topic so can degenerate very quickly but I for one appreciate the debate so far and have read with interest.
I’ve been very anti hunt in the past, then hunted post ban and appreciated elements of the pro argument. I then saw a few things that made me uncomfortable so am sticking to drag now.
Palo - I do think it feels a lot like a ‘throw a fox killing party’ and it’s easy to see why people might get that impression, although I appreciate that there are other perspectives out there.
I’ve been very anti hunt in the past, then hunted post ban and appreciated elements of the pro argument. I then saw a few things that made me uncomfortable so am sticking to drag now.
Palo - I do think it feels a lot like a ‘throw a fox killing party’ and it’s easy to see why people might get that impression, although I appreciate that there are other perspectives out there.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is sometimes terribly irritating to keep trying to explain and be reasonable when you just feel that there is not the slightest interest in your point of view.
I do understand the anti-hunt feelings having previously felt very anti-hunting myself. I know how angry, disgusted and offended it is possible to feel when you see hunting in action; the number and noise of hounds, the clothing, the rituals, the archaic language and 'etiquette' - all related to the pursuit of a native mammal. I do get it; I have been there though I was never an 'active' anti (I am actually probably far too 'polite' and self conscious to want to get into a conflict situation). What changed for me; having hunted as child and just accepting that, then challenging those ideas to feel very 'anti' later as a young adult, student and subsequently an independent working adult was an understanding that the rituals, language, etiquette etc are, anthropologically speaking, cultural 'dressing' of something else. That something else is the activity of 'hunting' which is very much part of what it has been to be human, or even to be an omnivorous animal (!) As a species we have hunted animals for food, to protect our homes/selves or to control the population of other species since time-immemorial. It doesn't have to be part of our culture now of course, in the 21st century though hunting animals is far more widely accepted than it is reviled in most cultures (that is not to say it shouldn't be an individual choice). BUT it is hard to escape the truth of our cultural and innate relationship with hunting in it's many forms and the value of that connection with nature. For me, hunting is an essential connection to other species; it requires knowledge and understanding and the facing of a number of difficult realities; most importantly the taking of the life of another creature. I am very aware that we do that all the time if we farm and eat meat and for me the taking of an animal's life should not be taken for granted. I am really quite ambivalent about the 'rightness' of some farming methods but that is another issue!!
I have very much loved pet animals and have some of our own animals here which we kill for food. That isn't ever done light-heartedly and I don't think it should be. BUT I can't escape from my own, sincere view that the killing of an animal in a way that is as natural and 'evolved' as possible is better, fairer, more respectful and more attune to the natural order than poison, gas, snaring, long distance travel (of some farm animals) etc - especially when this can take place at any time of year, rather than at a time when a fox, for example, has raised it's young cubs and will either be strong and healthy (therefore likely to survive) or could be hunted and killed in a really natural way. I feel this view is shared by many vets, naturalists and conservationists too though of course it is not fashionable and is increasingly demonised in popular culture which in itself feels a long way from some of the things that are important to me.
Individually it quite saddens me that society wants to be so distanced from our 'natural' selves though I completely accept that for some people their most natural self is vegetarian, vegan (it's not about the food here folks, but our relationship and behaviour toward the other species we share our fragile planet with). That is just not me though; I am at ease with the realities I see. I completely accept that some people would see my views as 'convenient', that I am dressing up a desire to be cruel and elitist with fancy ideas about human culture but thank goodness we live in a free (ish) country. It is interesting too that some of the most precious and fragile communities that are almost universally perceived as valuable in holding knowledge, skill and hope for the future are those that have some remaining elements of a hunting/gathering culture. Not only that but some rewilding charities and organisations see hunting (either by large re-introduced predators or by humans) as having a place in some of the emerging solutions to climate change. There is a lot of food for thought there and much of it, thankfully is a long way from red coats, badly parked horseboxes and hairnets...
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Now I completely get the thrill of the chase. The adrenalin when hounds found and struck off on the line. To me though, hunting was always about hound work not charging about (just as well in Essex) and to watch a hound that possibly you had walked as a pup, strike a line across the plough and then the horn and the laying on of the pack, it is an atavistic human response to get excited. And a horses tbh!
I loved the etiquette involved and in fact stopped hunting a season after the ban as so many people came out of the woodwork who didn't know grass from drilled wheat, didn't care anyway, had lots of money and thought having a jolly over someones crops was what it was all about. So not because my feelings towards the fox had changed but because the people involved were no longer in tune with any form of rural life.
I never have felt a great deal of sympathy towards the fox, I know it is instinctual for them to kill but so is it us. Anyone that doesn't object to their cat playing with a mouse, bird or bat for hours should not feel that strongly against humans doing the same.
I am also possibly the most law abiding person in the world! And when hounds found and you immediately felt guilty and furtive that was no fun. I haven't been for so long now that it may well have bedded down into the new regime.
I loved the etiquette involved and in fact stopped hunting a season after the ban as so many people came out of the woodwork who didn't know grass from drilled wheat, didn't care anyway, had lots of money and thought having a jolly over someones crops was what it was all about. So not because my feelings towards the fox had changed but because the people involved were no longer in tune with any form of rural life.
I never have felt a great deal of sympathy towards the fox, I know it is instinctual for them to kill but so is it us. Anyone that doesn't object to their cat playing with a mouse, bird or bat for hours should not feel that strongly against humans doing the same.
I am also possibly the most law abiding person in the world! And when hounds found and you immediately felt guilty and furtive that was no fun. I haven't been for so long now that it may well have bedded down into the new regime.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
With all due respect, this is a bit of a nothing argument. Just because you don't see rats/ foxes doesn't mean they are not around. Country foxes are pretty shy and it is perfectly possible to have some living fairly close by and never see them.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Cant agree with you there, C.
I might when cats start to go to school and implement cat laws against racist behaviour to Bengals.
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Smogul
Well-Known Member
I am confused. If you want to control an animal population, surely you kill off the healthy ones before they reproduce? Nature will get rid of the weak and sick.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Well you are right in this particular issue ycbm but I do think it a bit simplistic as there are so many different contexts for hunting/killing animals. I think it is ok to chase/hunt a fox with hounds before they kill it BUT would absolutely never support the hunting and killing of other animals such as whales but I believe you meant within the context of hunting with dogs. I know that some people want to polarise the issue but that isn't helpful at all I don't think.
palo1
Well-Known Member
In this instance though, historically wolves would have taken the weak and sick. Before the Hunting Act hounds fulfilled this function. There is plenty of evidence too to demonstrate that having predators 'disrupting' the activities of prey helps to manage an ecosystem much better so even where not a significant number of foxes was killed by hounds, the regular hunting of foxes dispersed them more naturally and also ensured the population was never as static - resulting in a healthier population.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I think the weak and sick argument doesn’t really work. On a good scenting day a healthy fox is as likely to be caught as a mangey one with poor scent. Hunting definitely has a very important part to play with population and pest control in upland areas. A man with a gun is more effective in many others.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I think you are suggesting that we are evolutionarily and intellectually superior to cats. I think humans are inferior to most other species on many scales.
LKWilliams
Active Member
I come from a rural back ground and am part of the farming community. My other half is a farmer and has land of which the hounds run over. Ive met lifelong friends on the hunt field. Hunting may become a thing of the past with the amount of people whom are uneducated opposing it. I agree you can all have an opinion and I admire those who seek to become educated before forming one. I have always hunted and I always will.
The sabs are a big problem, I havent put my much loved 'keep hunting' window sticker on my car due to the fear of being abused at the hands of sabs and extreemists.
I say keep hunting but appreciated you are all entitled to your own opinion.
The sabs are a big problem, I havent put my much loved 'keep hunting' window sticker on my car due to the fear of being abused at the hands of sabs and extreemists.
I say keep hunting but appreciated you are all entitled to your own opinion.