I cant make up my mind...thoughts on hunting

[palo1]

I think you are suggesting that we are evolutionarily and intellectually superior to cats. I think humans are inferior to most other species on many scales.

I think a massive part of the reason we are experiencing climate crisis is because humans see themselves as separate and different to other mammals and don't function within that ecosystem tbh. We absolutely need to see the bigger picture of our place and role on the planet in order to make progress. Historically that is probably all to do with religious narratives about God, man and the garden of Eden. I think though that ycbm was just lightening the tone a bit! It does drive me nuts though when I read about the number of song birds killed by domestic cats....(no I don't own a cat btw!)

 

[Bernster]

The bit I struggle with is that you can get all of that (imo) without needing a fox at the end of it i.e. blood or drag hunts. So the only effective difference seems to be the fox control element. Having a great gaggle of horses out on a hunt seems a very odd and inefficient way to deliver that.

Wouldn't it work just as well, if not better, to have a small group of folk out hunting foxes and dispatching them quickly and cleanly? I get that this would still upset some. If animal control is needed, aren't there quicker, cleaner, less distressing ways to do that?

 

[palo1]

Yes, of course though drag hunts and bloodhounding are a bit different (and different to each other too). Drag hunting is ALL about the riding experience as lines are pretty predictable, intended to be 'rideable' and usually safe enough to do at speed possibly over fences. Bloodhounding is of course about hunting a real person. Trail hunting covers much more variable ground, not all of it rideable (trail layers have to think and act like foxes after all) and can be trappy or challenging to ride. The joy in trail hunting and blood hounding is the hound work of course; watching the way they work individually and as a team can be completely amazing, as well as their speed, athleticism and stamina across country. That of course is why horses are helpful. There is also a horsemanship challenge to try to follow hounds as closely as possible - that is certainly sometimes thrilling and brings an entirely new element to a horse and rider partnership.

I understand your suggestion to just have a small group out hunting; in fact, that is what the huntsman and whips used to to do; the following field on horses were there for the challenge of following hounds across country, but of course they would take an interest in the outcome to a hunt - for reasons including that this helps to make sense of the hither and yon fashion of the day. Unless you have been hunting with a decent hunt that could be lost on some people tbh. The horses (other than those of huntsman and whips) have no part to play in traditional hunting though members of the field did used to be informally deployed in some situations; to stop foxes/hounds running where they were not 'allowed' (ie to stop the fox having an easy way out) or to act as a viewing aid (i.e did the fox go that way or another?)

There is considerable agreement (though not universal) that in hill/upland areas a pack of hounds really is the best way of getting rid of foxes but that would probably be very, very difficult to agree in political terms.

 

[Clodagh]

The bit I struggle with is that you can get all of that (imo) without needing a fox at the end of it i.e. blood or drag hunts. So the only effective difference seems to be the fox control element. Having a great gaggle of horses out on a hunt seems a very odd and inefficient way to deliver that.

Wouldn't it work just as well, if not better, to have a small group of folk out hunting foxes and dispatching them quickly and cleanly? I get that this would still upset some. If animal control is needed, aren't there quicker, cleaner, less distressing ways to do that?

It just isn't the same...and I know that sounds like the ultimate cop out reply. Bloodhounds or drag you may as well just go cross country schooling, but get drunk first if you like. There is no interest or skill, you don't need to see a hound, it's just gallop...stop...drink...gallop.
Watching a good huntsman hunting a pack of hounds (am taking BITD when I used to go) is totally different, the skill and forethought and how the three species involed in the hunt work together. (as in the human, hound and horse).

 

[ester]

The bit I struggle with is that you can get all of that (imo) without needing a fox at the end of it i.e. blood or drag hunts. So the only effective difference seems to be the fox control element. Having a great gaggle of horses out on a hunt seems a very odd and inefficient way to deliver that.

Wouldn't it work just as well, if not better, to have a small group of folk out hunting foxes and dispatching them quickly and cleanly? I get that this would still upset some. If animal control is needed, aren't there quicker, cleaner, less distressing ways to do that?

I've always been given the impression (by landowners) that without the fox removal they wouldn't allow the hunt on their land. I know some packs have lost a significant amount post-ban but with the ones I know it might just be that they have upset people too many times.

I do wonder whether training with something other than fox urine, although taking a time to bed in might stop as many heading off after the real thing although I've only once observed an issue calling hounds off a line partly due to the access.

I don't think it's been mentioned but the bit that sits particularly uncomfortably with me is digging out, and that bit is still legal.

 

[palo1]

It just isn't the same...and I know that sounds like the ultimate cop out reply. Bloodhounds or drag you may as well just go cross country schooling, but get drunk first if you like. There is no interest or skill, you don't need to see a hound, it's just gallop...stop...drink...gallop.
Watching a good huntsman hunting a pack of hounds (am taking BITD when I used to go) is totally different, the skill and forethought and how the three species involed in the hunt work together. (as in the human, hound and horse).

THIS!! I know how hateful antis find the idea but true hunting provides a huge depth of connection, skill, knowledge, respect and judgement. Those are good things when applied to our landscape and native species. Especially now. I think if we lose all those traditional hunting skills, values and knowledge we will do our own natural system a huge disservice. A huntsman and his team potentially have a whole range of other knowledge and understanding of species behaviour than anyone else and we stand to lose that in the next generation or so at our peril. IF we witnessed the death of hunting culture in a developing country as a result of the will of a highly urbanised community, many many people would find that difficult and argue that traditional hunting cultures preserve balance in nature far better than urban, political interventions. Rather than lose that for political means it may be better to accept some hard realities about nature and the need for balance. It has rarely been those that live and hunt in a landscape that have led to it's destruction - more often those that 'come in' and try to wield the land to their own particular ends. I think it worth saying too that hunting has a place in British culture; through employment, horse breeding, literature, songs, poetry, art, racing and semantics. It doesn't have to of course and times change everywhere but it IS part of who we are (not just in Britain obviously!!).

 

[LKWilliams]

THIS!! I know how hateful antis find the idea but true hunting provides a huge depth of connection, skill, knowledge, respect and judgement. Those are good things when applied to our landscape and native species. Especially now. I think if we lose all those traditional hunting skills, values and knowledge we will do our own natural system a huge disservice. A huntsman and his team potentially have a whole range of other knowledge and understanding of species behaviour than anyone else and we stand to lose that in the next generation or so at our peril. IF we witnessed the death of hunting culture in a developing country as a result of the will of a highly urbanised community, many many people would find that difficult and argue that traditional hunting cultures preserve balance in nature far better than urban, political interventions. Rather than lose that for political means it may be better to accept some hard realities about nature and the need for balance. It has rarely been those that live and hunt in a landscape that have led to it's destruction - more often those that 'come in' and try to wield the land to their own particular ends. I think it worth saying too that hunting has a place in British culture; through employment, horse breeding, literature, songs, poetry, art, racing and semantics. It doesn't have to of course and times change everywhere but it IS part of who we are (not just in Britain obviously!!).

Very well said!

 

[palo1]

https://www.facebook.com/Norwichsabs/?__tn__=,dkCH-R-R&eid=ARDngznfV0jKH9FrwVzpYg3HDZ4mdUrjhivyISqhAGv9ncb2ql7AxRBHaXvPp50tIrhJ83LU6NEFCPgg&hc_ref=ARSe_1MkE5ZN4lb_MGoUnq3k_x238hGq1aLEXnNAJipkjPejKi5NTNOfwBBFWpqOMiU&fref=nf&hc_location=group This is an interesting clip. The antis/sabs here are absolutely frustrated that they can't 'create' a problem. It's pretty pointless behaviour but hounds behave beautifully! Well done that huntsman in keeping his cool and all hounds on the same page. I am referring to the November 17th clip here.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Are we all talking about trail hunting or about traditional pre ban hunting here? The ban will never be repealed, that battle is long lost. And the way too many ‘trail’ packs are conducting themselves means that an all out ban is inevitable, it’s just the timing of that which is debatable.

It’s all well and good bleating about how unfair the nasty antis are, but when some packs are regularly and intentionally violating the law, its no wonder that the antis think they still have a job to do.

 

[palo1]

I don't think anyone has been 'bleating' the discussion has been pretty civilised and open I think. It might not be the right thread to have posted that clip to be fair but from someone who supports legal trail hunting and the now banned fox hunting it feels right to show that the moral high ground has NOT been taken by any one side.

 

[Clodagh]

Are we all talking about trail hunting or about traditional pre ban hunting here? The ban will never be repealed, that battle is long lost. And the way too many ‘trail’ packs are conducting themselves means that an all out ban is inevitable, it’s just the timing of that which is debatable.

It’s all well and good bleating about how unfair the nasty antis are, but when some packs are regularly and intentionally violating the law, its no wonder that the antis think they still have a job to do.

Probably my fault, I'm talking pre ban as I don't do any form of hunting any more. I see no point in hunting a trail.

 

[Clodagh]

I don't think anyone has been 'bleating' the discussion has been pretty civilised and open I think. It might not be the right thread to have posted that clip to be fair but from someone who supports legal trail hunting and the now banned fox hunting it feels right to show that the moral high ground has NOT been taken by any one side.

I agree proably side swiping what we are actually talking about. There are some perfectly nice sabs and some bloody awful hunting people.

 

[Clodagh]

I don't think it's been mentioned but the bit that sits particularly uncomfortably with me is digging out, and that bit is still legal.

I think when hunting sells itself as pest control, there's no point saying you can't control the pest as it has gone home. Like going squirrel shooting but only shooting them on the ground.
Terrier work done well is a professional and well organised thing. If the aim is to kill the fox then they are needed.

 

[palo1]

I agree proably side swiping what we are actually talking about. There are some perfectly nice sabs and some bloody awful hunting people.

Yes, thankfully I think we were discussing the principle of hunting with hounds (both legal trail hunting and pre-ban fox hunting) rather than the nature of those that are engaged in debate on either side. I have friends who are very anti-hunting (we don't tend to get into discussions about it and are tactful with each other) but none of those people have ever actually been hunting; they are objecting on conscience rather than experience. I have met some utterly ghastly people out hunting that I would never want to spend time with (and some wonderful, life long friends too) but I would still defend the right of those people to hunt because I believe that it is a better way to deal with foxes humanely. I think trail hunting is not quite a nonsense as it undoubtedly disrupts the fox population which is probably a good thing. I also think it is vital that we try to maintain and hang on to that set of skills and knowledge about our countryside - I am really passionate about that in truth.

 

[[139672]]

I don’t agree with it. The chase is, in my opinion cruel, and digging out as well. I’ve never been hunting but I used to look after liveried hunters. Also, what happens to the hounds in old age? I don’t think many could be re-homed. I knew someone who re-homed a hound. He had to send it back to the rescue centre as the hound kept escaping and running miles away.

 

[ester]

I'm not really sure what hunting sells itself as these days though.
I've never seen bad terrier work either so I'm not sure why the mention of professional/well organised?!

It is definitely something that comes up regularly though as people certainly assume if terrier men are still needed they are not hunting legally.

 

[DressageCob]

I would like to go hunting but don't for two reasons. The first is the potential to be associated with illegal activity, if they end up breaching the Hunting Act while I'm out. That could ruin my career. I'm also in the type of job that if the Daily Mail latched onto the story, I would be perfect tabloid fodder. I don't want to break the law anyway.
The other reason is the sabs. I find them terrifying. The masks, the aggression, the anonymity etc. I just don't trust that they won't hurt my horse, as I have seen them do in the past. I also wouldn't want them slashing the tyres to the lorry so I can't get home. Again, something I have recently seen.

I have "hunted" with a local bloodhound pack with one of my horses. It was ok, but I'm not sure I'd go again. it didn't seem to have the control of a normal hunt. There were loads of fairly novicy people with no brakes who were wobbling off left, right and centre. Some of the horses were hideously unfit and had no business being asked to do high intensity work. it's like those people thought it was just a hack with dogs or something. So that put me off. The local bloodhounds have now disbanded anyway. And the local drag hunt has a reputation for being fairly wild, so I'm not sure about that either! Since my boys have dressage as their proper "jobs" I don't want to break them on a hunting field. But the younger lad could actually do with going hunting to learn to gallop properly for eventing.

I'm so conflicted 😄

 

[palo1]

I'm not really sure what hunting sells itself as these days though.
I've never seen bad terrier work either so I'm not sure why the mention of professional/well organised?!

It is definitely something that comes up regularly though as people certainly assume if terrier men are still needed they are not hunting legally.

The thing is that it is perfectly legal to dig out foxes and kill them that way as long as it is humane and does not involve any hunting with more than 2 dogs. The Wildlife Acts would act against any proven 'cruelty' (though that is utterly unrealistic tbh -who is there to decide?!!) The two used to go together and many hunting folk felt uncomfortable about digging out though where it was required/requested by a landowner it was certainly part of the hunt. Many huntsmen preferred to see a fox bolted and give it another chance and I have seen that happen in the old days - many a fox made a completely clean getaway and was subsequently lost. These days terriermen help the hunt with trail laying, gates, etc and then get to do the work that they are allowed to; these are people who know where foxes are holed up and it is legal to do a number of things in that situation. Trail hunting and terriermen (or women) go together because they always have and still do even though the law is utterly disjointed and nonsensical.

 

[Clodagh]

I've never seen bad terrier work either so I'm not sure why the mention of professional/well organised?!
.

Oh OK, I assumed most people knew it could be done badly. Digging a fox is not about fun, it is about killing somethnig as quickly as possible.

I never did like bolting to hounds, I always preferred if it went to ground and landowner requested it be dug that it was just dug and shot. Making it run again is not something I supported.

 

[ester]

I seem to be being misunderstood rather a lot. I'm aware it is perfectly legal, pretty sure I said that, it was rather my point!

It is other people making the assumptions (and if I'm feeling up to it I will refute them) not me, I was just describing a situation that happens with the view of the general public (and public perception matters). I know exactly what everyone is doing on the field and all the legalities behind various activities and I don't think I indicated I didn't and needed a lengthy explanation.

 

[Bernster]

Hmm, based on this it seems I’ve been out with ahem less good trail packs and very lucky with the drag hunt pack!

 

[Clodagh]

I seem to be being misunderstood rather a lot. I'm aware it is perfectly legal, pretty sure I said that, it was rather my point!

It is other people making the assumptions (and if I'm feeling up to it I will refute them) not me, I was just describing a situation that happens with the view of the general public (and public perception matters). I know exactly what everyone is doing on the field and all the legalities behind various activities and I don't think I indicated I didn't and needed a lengthy explanation.

Sorry!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Hmm, based on this it seems I’ve been out with ahem less good trail packs and very lucky with the drag hunt pack!

If you have been out with my most local trail pack, (who I wouldn't return to, ever) then I'd agree that they are definitely 'less good', not anything as bad as the K'wick who have always had a pretty ropey reputation as long as I can recall, but some days they are very much less good....

 

[VoR]

I am confused. If you want to control an animal population, surely you kill off the healthy ones before they reproduce? Nature will get rid of the weak and sick.

If you kill off the healthy ones to control the population and then nature 'takes care' of the weak and sick, wouldn't that lead to extinction?

I have only hunted post ban and for a number of reasons I am not doing so at present, maybe never again.

Is hunting out-dated, maybe, is it an effective means of population control, I'm not 100% convinced the only thing I would say is that shooting of foxes has increased in our area and there is no 'selection' of which foxes get shot, healthy, sick, it's all the same and in large numbers on occasions, yes the fox problem is becoming more urban based and many urban foxes are not very healthy it seems to me (too many in close proximity, unnatural diet, and so on I assume) so perhaps that is where the control should focus? Should hunting continue? My concern if not is what happens to jobs linked to hunting (and there are many not directly linked) and also the hounds and horses involved? Would there be a mass euthanising of the hounds in particular which are difficult to domesticate and horses, well there already seems to be an 'over-stocking' of these in this country as far as I see?

The hunting act (as admitted by those that put it in place) is a poor piece of legislation aimed more at class than animal welfare, despite the fact that, whilst there are 'Toffs' (sic) that hunt, the vast majority are just ordinary people.

Do hunts break the law, of course, it has been proven, do sabs break the law, yes, of course! If hunting is banned where the 'animal rights' factions (and I do believe some have this at heart although from experience there are many who see this as a class war, I could quote things said to me whilst hunting) go next? Shooting, fishing, other equine sports, dog racing, etc, etc, etc. I have even seen it written that they would like all horse riding banned as it is cruel....

 

[ester]

Sorry!

thanks, I was having a bit of a stress head yesterday which didn't help!

 

[dreamerinreallife]

Wow! Thank you all so so much for what has, on the whole, been a very reasoned and rational discussion. I was worried when I first posted to be honest but it has been great to read mdifferent viewpoints and opinions (and I have learned loads!)

I am still very much on the fence but I like to hear differing views (in a friendly and respectful manner)

I have learned a lot about trail and drag hunting which as far as I know we don't have up here. All packs are about fox control so that is the only experience I have. How nice to see a reasoned debate/discussion without it going down the rude and disrespectful route which subjects like this often do!

 

[planete]

Animal behaviour is dictated by instinct. Human behaviour is also driven by instinct but should be tempered by reason. If we agree that killing animals is necessary we should use the most humane and most effective strategy available at any given time. Respect for the quarry, not killing for fun, is a must if we have any hope of being ethical. As I said before, the various instances of vile behaviour that mar the activities of some hunts mean that I have lost any liking for the whole business. I also love greyhounds and used to love watching them race but I now also agree there is so much abuse in the industry it needs to be banned. Same breeding ground for animal abuse for me. Tradition has often been a great justification /cover up for abuse I am afraid.

We need to have in place humane, planned culling of all species without natural predators like deer, foxes and badgers. Traditional methods served us well for a long time but we have now reached 'critical mass' in all sorts of areas, including human population, unbalanced numbers of many wild species and polarised opinions without scientific backing. Discarding sentimentality, it might help to take a fresh look at what actually works and is acceptable. A sensible national policy, well implemented and science backed laws for wildlife management with hard consequences for infringement would seem a way forward but are unfortunately pie in the sky right now. The picture is bigger than a for or against fox hunting with hounds.

This brings to mind the New Forest 'directive' asking people not to pick mushrooms as they are being decimated by commercial pickers. It is totally ineffective and many pickers come from other EU countries. Asked if they would do this in their native nature reserves a couple said: "Of course not, our nature reserves are patrolled by armed guards". Not sure about armed guards but what would convince people to really do their best for our fauna and flora?

 

[Ranyhyn]

A great post. I wrote and rewrote a response but utlimately I just agree wholeheartedly. Its a hard one.

One think I do know without a doubt though is that I dont want to see hunting dissapear.

 

[mini_b]

Agreed this was a good un - been lurking as I’m truly on the fence with this.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Another hour of blocked road bedlam here out in the sticks where nothing normally happens.

Hunt + antis (lots of) + ‘hunt safety officers’ + police + bewildered members of the public + a horse box stuck on a muddy verge on a blind bend + our poor Sainsburys delivery driver. And us.

Madness.

Apparently the local pack are genuinely trail hunting this season, which may be true. I hope it is, but they have said that before...