I think Swales Bits should be banned from the show ring.

Well if you think these bits are for people who cant ride a horse properly then they are perfectly suited to showing no? *joke*

seriously.....get over it. A snaffle can be a terrible thing for a horse/rider who it isnt suited to.

Far better to use a step up with lighter aids than to struggle on in the process with a so called 'mild' bit.
 
Silverspring said:
Haha! No I wasn't being serious, I ride my horse in a myler combination bit, the evilest bit in all the world mwhahahaha! Oh and I do use a saddle (Arab with a razer wither is just incomfortable otherwise) and I do try mind power but find a kick in the ribs gets us further :)
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:D

I used to hunt my arab in a Myler LS because it was the only bit that seemed to keep his brain connected to his legs at a party, at home, no bit at all.
Nothing wrong with a Myler combi, useful bit of kit, just like the Swales probably, it suits some, but not all.
 
For those on this post who have never seen a Swales bit, it appears on the front cover of the horse and hound this week, except many show producers have them made specially with extended shafts. They were driving bits orginally.

Their action is if you pull on the "snaffle" rein the larger ring will slide inwards and pinch and lift just over the buccal nerve squashing this against the lower jaw. The "curb" rein will have the normal action on the curb chain but will also push the larger rings inwards with added force. The longer the shaft the better the mechanical advantage the more force the more pain.

As one of the post points out they are favoured in the show ring because a small hand action can have a dramatic effect.

They are a very harsh bit (as is a sam marsh). If your horse is not well mannered they should be schooled.

I am sure if used with very light hands then they will not inflict pain, but if you don't need to use it why is it in your horses mouth.

The problem arises when successful showers appear in these bits, they may well know what they are doing and treat the horse with respect, however less experianced showers then follow their example and misuse the bit.
 
My point was that it is not going to cause anywhere near as much pain to the horse to very occasionally check with a stronger bit than haul on a snaffle the whole time your riding .

Some horse like stronger bits, some like snaffles its all personal preference(the horses)

I was in no way saying that i agree with inexperienced hands using this bit, or using it for a quick fix! Which is why i said that showing does need stricter rules on bitting.
 
BobbyMondeo said:
My point was that it is not going to cause anywhere near as much pain to the horse to very occasionally check with a stronger bit than haul on a snaffle the whole time your riding .

Some horse like stronger bits, some like snaffles its all personal preference(the horses)

I was in no way saying that i agree with inexperienced hands using this bit, or using it for a quick fix! Which is why i said that showing does need stricter rules on bitting.
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So would you ban the swales bit from the show ring?
 
I think what should be banned from the showring is riders with bad hands! I have seen as many uncomfortable horses in other bits than Swales!
I think a true double looks best for showing and if used correctly gets the horse to sit up and be round but many cobs have too thick tongues to be comfortable with 2 bits. I'd rather see a nice soft round forward going horse in a Swales than a bargy rude, or hauled at mouth in a snaffle!
 
georgiegirl said:
Far better to use a step up with lighter aids than to struggle on in the process with a so called 'mild' bit.
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I completely agree with this. I ended up having a very serious hacking accident because I felt that I "ought" to be able to ride my mare in a snaffle.

She is nicely schooled and goes well in a french link hanging cheek at home but out hacking its not enough.

If she decides to spook at something I need to be able to stop her so she's ridden in a pelham with double reins. In a snaffle she ignored me and galloped for home, with double reins I can ride off the top rein and just use the curb in extreme circumstances.

Don't judge people who choose to use a different bit unless you're willing to ride the horse yourself. Its not always because of laziness, fashions, ignorance or lack of schooling, sometimes its because its genuinely the best bit for that horse.
 
same could be said about hanging cheeks (or wilkies, or whatever else you want to call them)
they are "dodgy" in their action, yet are common place on first ridden ponies and even lead rein. also seen as bradoons on double bridles.

i do think rules ought to be more specific (plain snaffles for novice, first ridden, lead rein etc) but still flexible (variety of mouthpieces) and open classes going back to basics- generic pelham for smaller mouthed horses or double bridle for those who can manage it.

its a tough one unfortunately, you arent going to please everyone and they will evolve quickly to find the loop holes in the rulebook anyway
 
eirewhisper said:
I think what should be banned from the showring is riders with bad hands! I have seen as many uncomfortable horses in other bits than Swales!
I think a true double looks best for showing and if used correctly gets the horse to sit up and be round but many cobs have too thick tongues to be comfortable with 2 bits. I'd rather see a nice soft round forward going horse in a Swales than a bargy rude, or hauled at mouth in a snaffle!
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Why not a normal pelham that does not involve using a bit that is designed to pinch the side of the horses mouth?
 
No i wouldnt ban it from the show ring but i do think that the showing world should have stricter rules on bitting at the different levels of showing.
I guess what im saying is we should have more rules in place to try and control the use of some bits so they dont fall into harsh hands and actually become a welfare issue for that horse.(imo a bad bit is just the same as a poorly fitting saddle or putting a rider thats too heavy on a horse which wouldnt be tolerated at most high level shows....atleast i'd hope not!)
I dont really know how this would be achieved without a complete overhaul of the system, which is probably what we need.



Its so hard to get your point across on a forum!! Grrr
 
absolute diva said:
I completely agree with this. I ended up having a very serious hacking accident because I felt that I "ought" to be able to ride my mare in a snaffle.

She is nicely schooled and goes well in a french link hanging cheek at home but out hacking its not enough.

If she decides to spook at something I need to be able to stop her so she's ridden in a pelham with double reins. In a snaffle she ignored me and galloped for home, with double reins I can ride off the top rein and just use the curb in extreme circumstances.

Don't judge people who choose to use a different bit unless you're willing to ride the horse yourself. Its not always because of laziness, fashions, ignorance or lack of schooling, sometimes its because its genuinely the best bit for that horse.
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Normal Pelham, no problem you haven't thank goodness resorted to a bit designed to pinch the side of your horses mouth.
 
antagonist said:
For those on this post who have never seen a Swales bit, it appears on the front cover of the horse and hound this week, except many show producers have them made specially with extended shafts. They were driving bits orginally.

Their action is if you pull on the "snaffle" rein the larger ring will slide inwards and pinch and lift just over the buccal nerve squashing this against the lower jaw. The "curb" rein will have the normal action on the curb chain but will also push the larger rings inwards with added force. The longer the shaft the better the mechanical advantage the more force the more pain.
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ANY bit will cause pain if enough force is used,granted it is easier to cause pain stronger bits but if someone is going to haul their hourses mouth around they will-whatever bit is in there.

antagonist said:
As one of the post points out they are favoured in the show ring because a small hand action can have a dramatic effect.
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Nicely taken out of context ;)
The poster (correctly) said a gentle request via a stronger bit is better then pulling and sawing at the mouth in a softer bit NOT that a strong bit lets you get away with "invisable" aids.

antagonist said:
They are a very harsh bit (as is a sam marsh). If your horse is not well mannered they should be schooled.

I am sure if used with very light hands then they will not inflict pain, but if you don't need to use it why is it in your horses mouth.
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See above :p An owner is going to use whatever bit they feel suits them and their horse best.What suits one will be wrong for the next and what bit you use is a judgement call,unless you have had a good nose inside the horses mouth and sen it ridden in a varity of bits and situations,you are not in a position to say if the current bit is suitable.


antagonist said:
The problem arises when successful showers appear in these bits, they may well know what they are doing and treat the horse with respect, however less experianced showers then follow their example and misuse the bit.
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People will always do stupid things and anyone who would choose a bit based on what star of the month uses shouldnt be allowed anywhere near a horses mouth,but it is not the bit at fault.
 
It is rather sweeping to say that all horses can be ridden in a snaffle. That takes no account of how they have been schooled, or not, before you buy your horse so it comes down to finding the correct bit for your particular horse and whatever discipline you are competing in.

My horse has a very small mouth and hates a double bridle, so I use a pelham for showing.
 
antagonist said:
Why not a normal pelham that does not involve using a bit that is designed to pinch the side of the horses mouth?
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The point I was making was that the bit should be chosen to suit the horse - for instance the pelham has poll action - some horses dont tolerate that.
 
antagonist said:
Normal Pelham, no problem you haven't thank goodness resorted to a bit designed to pinch the side of your horses mouth.
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No, I've never heard of or seen a Swales pelham but if it does pinch as you say then Lil would have a fit as she's very sensitive. The pelham is used with a curb guard as she finds the curb action too strong.

I just wanted to speak up in defence of people who do use stronger bits occassionally as this thread was turning into "if you can't ride in a snaffle for all disciplines then you shouldn't ride at all".
 
I have seen just as much damage done with a plain old snaffle in god awful hands than I have with a swales.......it's not the bit that's the problem, it's the hands on the other end of the reins. And unfortunatley in this day and age some people simply want a quick fix (or a fashion statement) and can't be bothered to put the time and effort in to schooling the animal.
What should be banned from the showring, however is OBESITY.
 
The title of this thread is that I think swales bits should be banned from showing.

Not can't use a pelham must use a snaffle.

I suspect some think the use of a swales is indefensible in the show ring so deflecting the discussion.



Re fumanchu use of a sam marsh because her horses mouth is too small for a pelham, I will leave for people to look at the picture and make thier own decision:


http://www.horsebitbank.com/sam-marsh-pelham-447.phtml

http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Flexi-Mullen-Mouth-Pelham-Bit/productinfo/BITFMMP/

But as she said she is not having anyone telling her what to use:)
 
antagonist.....you say in skilled light hands a swales is acceptable.....have you ever ridden in one?? I certainly havent.

really i think until you have learned the hard way or used something sucessfully then really you dont have a leg to stand on with your info. all horses mouths are NOT the same even from when they are very first broken and dont forget it is not just the horses 'mouth' which affects how it rides.

I have broken and schooled on various youngsters, some of which have required different bits other than a snaffle, some have gone beautifully in a snaffle. Not all horses are born with super light responsive mouths simply because the rest of them (ie thier physique) doesnt allow them to respond in this way, this means a diffent way of communicating the aids ie through poll pressure or whatever suits said horse is in fact much kinder as you are giving the horse clear signals which is is able to understand for its type and shape!

I know ive said that in a bit of a gobbledegook way but i hope it makes sense, all im saying is some horses respond to pressre on the bars of the mouth, others on the tongue and others through poll pressure etc etc
 
Actually anatomically all horses mouths are the same they have the buccal nerve running closely above the lower mandible in the region that a swales bit is putting pressure on.

Horse may react differantly to this stimulus but that does not mean that this is not a painful stimulus. I suspect a understanding of anatomy and mechanics is important in this discussion.

You are missing the point I am trying to make, you can ride differant horses in differant bits, however if a horse is requiring a harsh bit such as swales the horse is not mannerly and should be schooled and not shown.

If a "name" uses a swales then every one knows the masses will follow. Don't the "names" have a responsibility.
 
Whatever anyone says about the swales, you're just going to bite back at them - therefore it's pointless anyone trying to defend (not that they should have to 'defend') their choice of bit. You've made it very clear you don't like it, which is fair enough, and most people have said that they don't mind it. I feel like if I tried to say anything you'd simply try to dumb me down, say 'there is always another option' and call me inhumane.
 
antagonist said:
If a "name" uses a swales then every one knows the masses will follow. Don't the "names" have a responsibility.
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No I dont believe they do. It is not their problem if some clod chooses to use a bit which is totally unsuitable for their horse. Every adult is responsible for their own actions. If the "names" choose to use a type of bit suited to their horses then that is up to them, as it is up to each and every one of us to use whatever we deem is best for our horses. You obviously have a beef with someone in the showing world. Someone who has been in H&H magazine. Take your complaint up with them, not us.
 
antagonist said:
If a "name" uses a swales then every one knows the masses will follow. Don't the "names" have a responsibility.
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Yes they do! Which is why we need rules so that only the "names" in the very high level showing classes can use these bits in the ring and in the public eye. Its people misusing these bits that makes everyone think that they are the worst thing in the world, when infact there are much worse things out there for us to worry about

I do however think that anyone should be able to use bits like this to school at home (what they do with their horse at home is none of my business really)
 
teagreen said:
Whatever anyone says about the swales, you're just going to bite back at them - therefore it's pointless anyone trying to defend (not that they should have to 'defend') their choice of bit. You've made it very clear you don't like it, which is fair enough, and most people have said that they don't mind it. I feel like if I tried to say anything you'd simply try to dumb me down, say 'there is always another option' and call me inhumane.
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No one has yet come back to disprove my assessment of how this bit works, someone come to the point debate with me how can this bit not exert pain on the horse.

I haven't done anyone down I have put forward a point of view that is not the accepted point of view of the showing community.
 
jaypeebee said:
No I dont believe they do. It is not their problem if some clod chooses to use a bit which is totally unsuitable for their horse. Every adult is responsible for their own actions. If the "names" choose to use a type of bit suited to their horses then that is up to them, as it is up to each and every one of us to use whatever we deem is best for our horses. You obviously have a beef with someone in the showing world. Someone who has been in H&H magazine. Take your complaint up with them, not us.
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The only beef I have is on my dinner plate!;)

If the showing community is willing to stand by whilst an inappriopiate bit is used, how long before they are sacrificed on the alter of public opinion (look at panorama and crufts).

The "names" have vested interest in ensuring their chosen discipline is held in high regard and surely that should be placed higher than personal success.

I am trying to open a debate no more no less.
 
It's not an inappropriate bit though - I can think of many show horses who use it and none of them go around looking like they are in pain or objecting in any way. I have seen some terrible displays locally with riders in plain snaffles or gags, their horses are clearly in distress; I don't see any horses looking like them in a swales at a show, do you?

I have seen it used in the showring, by driving people, by someone who teamchases and by people who simply ride in it at home. All of those people think it works for them and their horse, who looks comfortable and happy in their way of going - none of them look terrified thanks to the hunk of metal in their mouths causing them distress.
 
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