I think Swales Bits should be banned from the show ring.

Persephone said:
A show horse doesn't go in the same way as a dressage horse though does it?
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No they do go differently. For example a hunter should be a horse you would want to ride all day in the hunting field an a dressage way of going would be a tad uncomfy all day lol
 
Show people, what would you put your horses being so well mannered in an open area and in a group down to apart from schooling at home, would you say that being able to use stronger bits like the swales in the ring(not saying users on here do, just show riders in general) helps you gain control and have a better picture?

Not trying to stir i am generally interested
 
FMM said:
Erm - one major difference. Dressage horses only canter as a group during prize givings. I happen to recall MANY prize givings at dressage where these wonderfully schooled horses rear, buck, plunge as they cannot be ridden in a group situation.

Then take up to 30 17hh plus horses all GALLOPING at the same time in an enclosed space (generally NOT on a surface) - and you still think that the two are comparable?
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Yes I do agree with you on this but....show horses are schooled and trained to canter/gallop togther..in groups. Dressage horses are not, therefore if the dressage horses were trained in that way I don't feel that would be a problem.

We had a top level dressage horse with us for a while (long story can't go into the whys and wherefores, just helping a friend out) when he came he was pretty nuts hacking in company but we persevered because we do hack.... after a few weeks he did this quietly enough and sensibly, my point being that he was trained to do it.

So after a while of good training and schooling the dressage horses would go out in groups.
 
I can only comment from my point of view but a lot of my bit choices are made with the judge in mind. You imagine the pressure of putting a complete stranger on your hulking great horse who is well up their job in an electric atmosphre and you do consider the brakes.

The horse in my sig has been beautifully schooled all his life and is a dream to ride at home but he is sharp in the ring and knows his job. He got his tongue over the bit at a premier show scared himself and took off and the judge had no hope of holding him (in a banbury weymouth and loose link bradoon) That was just bad luck but you take someones health and career in your hands and you have to do what is best and safest all round.
 
Rouletterose said:
Yes I do agree with you on this but....show horses are schooled and trained to canter/gallop togther..in groups. Dressage horses are not, therefore if the dressage horses were trained in that way I don't feel that would be a problem.

We had a top level dressage horse with us for a while (long story can't go into the whys and wherefores, just helping a friend out) when he came he was pretty nuts hacking in company but we persevered because we do hack.... after a few weeks he did this quietly enough and sensibly, my point being that he was trained to do it.

So after a while of good training and schooling the dressage horses would go out in groups.
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I don't have 30 horses at home to school with......
 
In addition to that, show horses have to deal with situations that dressage horses don't. They not only have to gallop in groups (and, straight after that galloping, do a mannerly, quiet show for a totally different rider) but they do it in the middle of a county showground, surrounded by a grandstand, throngs of people, often a motorcycle display team or the household cavelry, a brass band etc - shows have absolutely electric atmospheres.
 
teagreen well said.

For example in the eve performance of a champ you have to ride your horse into an arena at a flying trot with music blarring at the noise level of a disco, the crowd screaming, strobe and spotlights. Ride a group then stand like a rock in the lineup while they place the horses then a lap of honour with even more noise. I think mannerly ride at that point goes out the window and your going on the power of prayer alone and I defy most horses to not lighten up.
 
I was being sacastic. I know that all I am saying is to put the cards on the table it is very easy for people to stand on the side lines and comment about show horses and manners yes there are horses that are naturally quiet and cold blooded that would by nature be the ultimate mannerly ride but are all of them going to float in the ring, draw the judges eye and have the conf to be top level?

Turning it on its head dressage horses are supposed to be the most beautifully well schooled horses instantly responsive to the aids etc.

So why do you need spurs and double bits? Same thing
 
rushyj said:
I can only comment from my point of view but a lot of my bit choices are made with the judge in mind. You imagine the pressure of putting a complete stranger on your hulking great horse who is well up their job in an electric atmosphre and you do consider the brakes.

The horse in my sig has been beautifully schooled all his life and is a dream to ride at home but he is sharp in the ring and knows his job. He got his tongue over the bit at a premier show scared himself and took off and the judge had no hope of holding him (in a banbury weymouth and loose link bradoon) That was just bad luck but you take someones health and career in your hands and you have to do what is best and safest all round.
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OK genuine question....do you think that situation would have been any different if the horse had been in a Swales?
 
No he would hate a swales he always needed a slightly sharper bradoon than the weymouth. He in actual fact needed a spinner to stop him drawing his tongue back.
 
rushyj said:
I was being sacastic. I know that all I am saying is to put the cards on the table it is very easy for people to stand on the side lines and comment about show horses and manners yes there are horses that are naturally quiet and cold blooded that would by nature be the ultimate mannerly ride but are all of them going to float in the ring, draw the judges eye and have the conf to be top level?

Turning it on its head dressage horses are supposed to be the most beautifully well schooled horses instantly responsive to the aids etc.

So why do you need spurs and double bits? Same thing
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We digress...the same reason you need doubles etc on most top level showing animals,
dressage horses...doubles and spurs
show horses...doubles and spurs.

I think the Swales bit is what was originally being discussed.

Fabulous thread and have really enjoyed chatting with you but am off to ride, late as it is!!!
HHO fault again.
 
lol good point.... wish I was but show to organise..... grrrrr anyone wanna help with the West of England Show email me please!!!!! lol
 
i have seen people riding in it and I thinks its not as severe as people make it out to be.

I see horses who go in it very well and rider is nice and light in the hands. I for one would rather see it in a horses mouth than some of the combinations out there, and I dont see it as a cheek crusher either as if horse is going straight the snaffle rings do nothing.

Nikki xxx
 
People do seem to have forgotten that double bridles and spurs are supposed to be for a refinement of the aids, not because you should or because you need more impulsion or more brakes....

As for using stronger bits.... well it's one of the reasons I like driving bits, horse gets a bit strong/is fresh etc, put the bit down a slot (liverpool or reversable) for 10 minutes, when they over it go back to normal setting.

When I was at hickstead last week every other horse was in a swales. When you see a bit that often (that isn't an eggbut or a loose ring) it does make you question how many need it and how many are using it for fashion.
 
Every horse owner has the right to chose which bit to use taking in many differant factors.

BUT WITH RIGHTS COMES RESPONSIBILITIES.

Surely riders have to consider the welfare of the horse, is this bit excessively harsh for what I am trying to achieve.

They have to consider there own, there horses, the judges and the publics safety.

But surely the "names" have a rsponsibilty to consider weather the masses will follow thier example leaving to a epidemic of excessively harsh bits in inexperianced hands.

The "names" have yet to take the lead on this so surely regulation is the only option unless we are happy with the current situation.

The risk is if the issue is ignored then the sport will fall on the alter of public opinion.

PS Can any one tell me that the high number of horses shown in a swales is reflective of the numbers of horses that actually need such a harsh bit.
 
antagonist said:
Every horse owner has the right to chose which bit to use taking in many differant factors.

.......

PS Can any one tell me that the high number of horses shown in a swales is reflective of the numbers of horses that actually need such a harsh bit.
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No, probably not everyone showing in a Swales NEEDS to. However, I don't think that for that reason it should be banned. IMO, the NS Swales is handsome looking when on (it tends to mimic the look of a double better than a rugby pelham). But that isn't reason enough to go out and buy one and use it. I've got one, I've used it, it's done it's job and it's now collecting dust. If I felt the need to show in it, I certainly would.
 
If people are using bits that they don't need to, and this bit is being used in inexperianced hands how do you stop it.

Regulation, example or ignore the problem?
 
antagonist said:
If people are using bits that they don't need to, and this bit is being used in inexperianced hands how do you stop it.

Regulation, example or ignore the problem?
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Have you seen any horses suffering from the ill effects of wearing this bit? I've seen it a lot in the ring, but I've yet to see any horses going terribly in it, or looking ruined.

I also don't know of anyone who has seen a producer wearing this bit, then gone and spent £70+ on it just because they saw it in H+H....Everyone I've seen using it is doing so because they feel it is the best option for their horse, and it's going very nicely in it. None seem to be suffering any ill effects.
 
fumanchu said:
TBH I think the Horse World as a whole has a lot more to be concerned about than what is in a Show Horses mouth for a 40 minute class...
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I am in total agreement, but this is the topic of this debate....have many more things I could bring up in dabate and may well do in the future,:) but this seems to have caught peoples attention at the moment
 
I read up about this bit, from a source that had nil to do with the brand. Although it said it must be used with some care, due to the increased curb action, it seems it has hardly any poll action and it is not as severe as people are led to believe. I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just what I have read. But I do agree that any bit in the wrong hands is a severe bit in some ways. But hey ho.:)
 
sarahsum1 said:
I read up about this bit, from a source that had nil to do with the brand. Although it said it must be used with some care, due to the increased curb action, it seems it has hardly any poll action and it is not as severe as people are led to believe. I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just what I have read. But I do agree that any bit in the wrong hands is a severe bit in some ways. But hey ho.:)
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Totally agree.
 
Teagreen: I disagree and I feel I am not alone, please see the quote from my opening posts.

antagonist said:

Two quotes from the Horse and hound:

1)EARLIER this year, a BSPS judge wrote to H&H, concerned about the use of the Swales 3-in-1 bit in showing and describing it as "an old cavalry jaw-crunching bit".




2)The Swales bit has become extremely popular in cob and hunter classes in recent years, but a leading show producer has warned against its overuse.

Jayne Webber, winner of the 2009 supreme horse at Horse of the Year Show, says: "The Swales us a very sharp 'elevator' bit, which helps to get the horse to 'sit-up'. This is especially useful for cobs, which tend to want to go on their forehand.


"They seem to be in fashion, but I only use it as a training bit and, once I've got the horse off its forehand, I change into another bit.


"You have to have forgiving hands to use it properly; you have to ride off the leg. In the wrong hands, it can make horses back off the bridle."


Jayne's words of warning are supported by judge and exhibitor Lucy Killingbeck, who adds: "I hate to see them so widely use, since a lot of riders just don't have the hands for it. As a judge, it can be horrible to ride a horse in a Swales which hasn't been used properly."
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sarahsum1 said:
I read up about this bit, from a source that had nil to do with the brand. Although it said it must be used with some care, due to the increased curb action, it seems it has hardly any poll action and it is not as severe as people are led to believe. I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just what I have read. But I do agree that any bit in the wrong hands is a severe bit in some ways. But hey ho.:)
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Is Hey Ho the correct attitude when there is a potential welfare issue?
 
antagonist said:
Is Hey Ho the correct attitude when there is a potential welfare issue?
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Out of everything I wrote, THAT is what you pick up on?? How odd. The point I was making is it seems it is NOT a welfare issue in some eyes, I think it completely depends on the rider and horse, I have seen some awful heavy handed riders with their horses in a double bridle, which also has curb action! So unless you are going to inspect and assess everybodys riding before they enter the ring, and decide who is able to use it, then not a lot you can do.
P>S The welfare side is YOUR opinion so I can choose whatever wording I like thanks!
 
sarahsum1 said:
Out of everything I wrote, THAT is what you pick up on?? How odd. The point I was making is it seems it is NOT a welfare issue in some eyes, I think it completely depends on the rider and horse, I have seen some awful heavy handed riders with their horses in a double bridle, which also has curb action! So unless you are going to inspect and assess everybodys riding before they enter the ring, and decide who is able to use it, then not a lot you can do.
P>S The welfare side is YOUR opinion so I can choose whatever wording I like thanks!
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I feel we are in agreement that any bit in the wrong hands is undesirable and that is my interpredation of the majority of posts.

My question is where within the sport is the reponsibility to address the problem or do we ignore this?
 
My question is where within the sport is the reponsibility to address the problem or do we ignore this?
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If the rules allowed people to show their hunters in a snaffle - the problem would quickly disappear. Apart from the traditionalists who would still prefer to show in a double or any other combination that is allowed.
 
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