I think Swales Bits should be banned from the show ring.

antagonist said:
I feel we are in agreement that any bit in the wrong hands is undesirable and that is my interpredation of the majority of posts.

My question is where within the sport is the reponsibility to address the problem or do we ignore this?
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I don't have the answers i'm afraid. I don't really know enough on the subject and was just relaying what I read. Have you researched into it properly? I mean other than the two statements from H&H? Perhaps you could write to the BHS or similar and find out their opinions? :confused: I mean I just don;t know. If you feel strongly then thats fair enough and I respect that, but you need more than the two pieces of evidence( If there is more I apologise) to make a convincing arguement if you see what I mean. Two peoples opinions on somethng, ,means nothing in the grand scheme of things, they could be totally wrong. If 200 people had evidence that it causes pain etc, then that is when people may listen. But again just my opinion, I don't know enough and am just throwing ideas around there.

ETA the two statements from H&H are not even evidence really, so not sure how you would 'prove' it.
 
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160 post and 4000 views.

I think perhaps it is something that has to be considered by the powers that be, do you not.

Anecdotal evidence is one thing but a proper consideration of the anatomical and mechanical facts is needed.

I fear that the inherent inertia in any system will mean any action on this bit will be to late the next fad will have come about. We need to look how the system is governed to allow a rapid consideration of each new device or rely on the example form those who should know better.
 
Let's be specific. Where have you seen a horse wearing a Swales which has been distressed in any way?

I haven't seen one - not saying there are none, just that in all the many shows I have attended this year, firstly there are not 100s of people using a Swales, and secondly, the ones I have seen being used, do not appear to be causing a problem.

So with all the equine welfare problems from which to choose, this seems to be one of the more pointless ones. Doesn't bother me one way or the other, as I use a double on my horse. But if we thought a Swales were appropriate, then I would use one.
 
antagonist said:
160 post and 4000 views.

I think perhaps it is something that has to be considered by the powers that be, do you not.
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Er, no, not really.

If this bit appeared to be causing distress to horses in the showring, then yes. If it was causing mouths to bleed or horses becoming unworkable, then yes. But it's not - no one else on this thread has seen any welfare issues relating to this bit - it's obviously strong, no one is denying that, but there doesn't seem to be a problem anywhere.

You obviously feel strongly about it so why don't you take it to a higher power - I don't think you'll be getting much support from people on this thread though.

This has had 4000 views but only 160 replies because I think people think you have a bit of a problem and can't be bothered to reply to you....
 
I for one agree that education is the prime factor here. How many time do you hear people saying to use a rugby pelham as it is less in the mouth or less severe than a weymouth set.

This although it sounds like a knowledgable statement is completely incorrect as you can't drop the curb action as you can i weymouth bradoon the bit is completly vague and unstable and built as a replica of the real thing with no difined action. So many top riders ride solely off the bradoon rein with the weymouth rein only there for if needed. TBH I think there are far to many people slating bits and showing without the back up of actual knowledge and that is where the problems come in. For example this post if someone was reading this who had a horse being produced that would need a swales or sam marsh and then refused to allow the horse to be ridden in one that is not a knowledgable choice it is a fashionable one.
 
FMM said:
Let's be specific. Where have you seen a horse wearing a Swales which has been distressed in any way?

I haven't seen one - not saying there are none, just that in all the many shows I have attended this year, firstly there are not 100s of people using a Swales, and secondly, the ones I have seen being used, do not appear to be causing a problem.

So with all the equine welfare problems from which to choose, this seems to be one of the more pointless ones. Doesn't bother me one way or the other, as I use a double on my horse. But if we thought a Swales were appropriate, then I would use one.
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As I have stated before yes there is hundreds of other welfare problem within and without of the sport, but this is what we are debating today.

Perhaps what we need is some mechanism when a new (or reinvented device) whatever (it may be) is introduced to the show ring, it is scrutanised on welfare grounds on people who have a far better understanding of these things and can look at it for the horse point of view. This will stop this current problem that I see in the swales bit but also put a mechanism in place for the next fad.

Perhaps a list of approved bits that can be used as is the case of dressage will stop "new" bits coming on the scene that have a uncertain and unproven record on welfare grounds. When the swales goes something else will come along (to quote a post several pages ago: where does it stop... a strand of barbed wire in the mouth)

It is all of ours problem
 
antagonist said:
As I have stated before yes there is hundreds of other welfare problem within and without of the sport, but this is what we are debating today.

Perhaps what we need is some mechanism when a new (or reinvented device) whatever (it may be) is introduced to the show ring, it is scrutanised on welfare grounds on people who have a far better understanding of these things and can look at it for the horse point of view. This will stop this current problem that I see in the swales bit but also put a mechanism in place for the next fad.

Perhaps a list of approved bits that can be used as is the case of dressage will stop "new" bits coming on the scene that have a uncertain and unproven record on welfare grounds. When the swales goes something else will come along (to quote a post several pages ago: where does it stop... a strand of barbed wire in the mouth)

It is all of ours problem
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You appear to have missed the point of my post - I asked where YOU had seen a horse that was uncomfortable wearing a Swales.
 
You need proof that there is a welfare issue here - as I said before, when have you seen a horse in distress because of this bit? It doesn't look to be causing pain to any of the horses I've seen it used on?

TBH, with a name like 'Antagonist' no one is going to take you seriously love :rolleyes:
 
Ok so how would you legislate this.

Below pic is a 5 year old novice lightweight 3/4 TB at his very first show please note he is in a standard weymouth bradoon set. There is no pressure on the weymouth rein at all this is down to schooling and manners on his behalf.

n1074211092_233875_8250.jpg


This one I am being royaly carted in trot on an open heavyweight who seriously enjoys his job but he is not being grabbed or the weymouth being used more than the bradoon the pressure is even and not excessive.

n1074211092_233860_5302.jpg
 
antagonist said:
160 post and 4000 views.

I think perhaps it is something that has to be considered by the powers that be, do you not.

Anecdotal evidence is one thing but a proper consideration of the anatomical and mechanical facts is needed.

I fear that the inherent inertia in any system will mean any action on this bit will be to late the next fad will have come about. We need to look how the system is governed to allow a rapid consideration of each new device or rely on the example form those who should know better.
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That is not evidence, it is mostly (not all) but people disagreeing with you! In this day and age, you need hard evidence to prove that something is either cruel or causes suffering. (believe me I know, I tried to ban animal circuses!:rolleyes:) So I think you need to work on that, rather than trying to convince a bunch of HHO'ers who have no evidence in front of them.
But either way, good luck :)
 
My personal experiance and evidence is surely not a relevent as the experiances of the people on the opening page who are "names"

I am a nobody in the horse world! but yes I have seen it miss used commonly. And it would appear from my quotes that I am not alone.

If the suporters of the swales feel it is a safe and humane bit surely they should be pushing as much as me to have this (and future devices) examined independently by a panel of experts in animal welfare rather that a panel backed by anedotal evedence.

I am more than happy to be proved wrong but the mechanism should be in place.
 
Well folks, you can all hate me now. As my boy wears a swale. He goes politely and does not have his back teeth hauled out in it. Yes I have tried plenty other bits but this is one he likes. So if it aint broke I wont p*ss him off and try to fix it.

Oh and I have yet to have a Judge dislike it as we have been at the right end of the line up for the past 2 seasons.

People get a bee in their bonnets about any bit which is not a single/double jointed snaffle or a double.

Remember us humans dont wear the same make of shoes just because someone believes that we should. We wear the shoes that best fits our feet.

So we should think the same with horse's mouths and bits.
 
I do think some people are using Swales where they are not necessary, but I am not riding their horse. They do seem very popular with the cobs at the moment. However, I have yet to see a horse showing signs of not being happy in the ring wearing one. Most people still seem to use a double or a simple pelham at higher level showing.

I was using a mullen mouth pelham last year but on the advice of a top ride judge have changed to a double which Stinky goes very well in. He said the pelham was a bit too strong and encouraging him to lean, but the double means I ride off a french link snaffle with the backup of the curb if I need it. He did say not to use a Swales as this would be too strong for him.

I do have friends who use a Sam Marsh on their traditionals, this bit often suits their mouth shape. I also have friends who use the Swales after trying many other bits, especially with a horse that does not like poll pressure. The same people also use snaffles and doubles but have found that in these cases this is what the horse likes best.

Personally I think that what you see worn in the show jumping ring is far more of a cause for concern than the Swales in showing. I would rather see a horse in a Swales than with his mouth strapped tight, three ring gag ridden on the bottom setting and a tight martingale, which I frequently see at SJ competitions.

Every equestrian sport has people using inappropriate equipment and here showing is no different, so maybe you would be better directing your energy at the use of inappropriate equipment in all areas of equestrian sport.
 
antagonist said:
My personal experiance and evidence is surely not a relevent as the experiances of the people on the opening page who are "names"

I am a nobody in the horse world! but yes I have seen it miss used commonly. And it would appear from my quotes that I am not alone.

If the suporters of the swales feel it is a safe and humane bit surely they should be pushing as much as me to have this (and future devices) examined independently by a panel of experts in animal welfare rather that a panel backed by anedotal evedence.

I am more than happy to be proved wrong but the mechanism should be in place.
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But again, that is not evidence! That is the opinions of two people, it is not evidence. I appreciate they prob have witnessed things, but still, you need hard and fast evidence to convince the relevant people, that this bit is pain inducing. I mean scientific facts.

ETA If you can get proof in the form of anatomical and scientific evidence and all that jazz, then yes you would be bale to make more of an impact.
 
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fumanchu said:
FMM...in a previous answer i said i believed the wonderful Robocob went in a Swales.

If so, i'm sure there was a reason for this?
and not because it was a "fashion statement"?
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Do you know, I can't remember! And I actually rode him in a few championships when Jayne was on something else. Let me try to find a pic ... age is a dreadful thing ...

OK - looked at some pics of me riding him and he was in a "normal" bit - not to say that he did not wear a Swales on occasion though. If it is the right bit then we will use it.

It would be rare (if not unheard of) for us to use a Swales on a horse that we had had for breaking and then showing. But for some of the older horses that have been through several hands before they get to us, we would use whatever is the right bit for that horse/rider combination.
 
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Beautifully put. Do we not live in enough of a policed state as it is can people not make their own judgements and decisions..
 
I don't know anywhere near enough to make a comment on the use of the bit as I've never used one nor have I ever even seen one!

However, I have only one comment to make and that is that, in my opinion, the whole tone of the original post was only EVER going to get people's back's up. It was aggressive in nature and very forceful.

You mentioned early in the thread that you only wanted to "start a debate". Well, it might be worth bearing in mind next time you want to do so, to not take quite the same tone.

The reaction you've recieved here is nothing more than you should have expected, or deserved.
 
rushyj said:
Ok so how would you legislate this.

Below pic is a 5 year old novice lightweight 3/4 TB at his very first show please note he is in a standard weymouth bradoon set. There is no pressure on the weymouth rein at all this is down to schooling and manners on his behalf.

n1074211092_233875_8250.jpg


This one I am being royaly carted in trot on an open heavyweight who seriously enjoys his job but he is not being grabbed or the weymouth being used more than the bradoon the pressure is even and not excessive.

n1074211092_233860_5302.jpg
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Have I missed the point I don't see a swales bit?

I take it you know what you are doing, does everyone who uses a swales?

Why not allow this bit to come under proper scrutiny?
 
Megan_T said:
I don't know anywhere near enough to make a comment on the use of the bit as I've never used one nor have I ever even seen one!

However, I have only one comment to make and that is that, in my opinion, the whole tone of the original post was only EVER going to get people's back's up. It was aggressive in nature and very forceful.

You mentioned early in the thread that you only wanted to "start a debate". Well, it might be worth bearing in mind next time you want to do so, to not take quite the same tone.

The reaction you've recieved here is nothing more than you should have expected, or deserved.
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As has happen several times in this debate, the nature rather than the content of my posts have been challanged.

I will ask again.... why do the supporters of the swales not agree that the powers that be are asked to look at this (and any future bits) critically and pass judgement.

I could present the anatomical and mechanical explenation but I am not impartial.

Why not accept the challange to support your position?
 
To be honest with you , i think a lot of people need to get off their high horse ..me included probably , should have never commented in the first place.

I think the OP was just trying to start a debate (all be it in the wrong way with quite an aggressive first post which immediately made other deffensive) and an interesting one at that about this bit in particular, not wether horses should be ridden in doubles ect . I think anyone who has been involved in this thread would say it has been interesting..i certainly have enjoyed hearing everyones opinions, after all isnt what this forum is about.

The issue here is that nothing seems to be in place to stop bits which can cause a hell of a lot of pain very easilly landing in the wrong hands and i think this is what the OP is trying to get accross and ask peoples opinions on. The OP was not saying that people shouldnt be allowed to use this bit if it appropriate to do so, just worried about what would happen if it gets into the wrong hands (this is how i see it anyway)
At no time did the OP or anyone else on this thread ask for personal critisim over the bits that they do or do not use and it is becoming into a bit of slanging match really which i dont think is what any of us want on this forum.

Think this is a case of agree to disagree


OP if you really want to get somewhere with this you will need hard evidence unfortunately and support from others. Contact the BHS and other organisations about this and see where it gets you. Even if it doesnt have the result you want it will hopefully raise awareness and that is always a good thing!
Yet again education or lack of it from both sides in our horsey community seems to be at fault here
 
The point of the above was in response to the inference that the showing world use severe bits to get a result in the ring and make choices out of fashion. The swales is just another bit that is available to use and if it suits both horse and rider then they have the right to use it. I also am part of the camp that I haven't seen horses going round distressed in a swales and they would be removed from the ring if they were so there is your legislation.
 
BobbyMondeo said:
To be honest with you , i think a lot of people need to get off their high horse ..me included probably , should have never commented in the first place.

I think the OP was just trying to start a debate (all be it in the wrong way with quite an aggressive first post which immediately made other deffensive) and an interesting one at that about this bit in particular, not wether horses should be ridden in doubles ect . I think anyone who has been involved in this thread would say it has been interesting..i certainly have enjoyed hearing everyones opinions, after all isnt what this forum is about.

The issue here is that nothing seems to be in place to stop bits which can cause a hell of a lot of pain very easilly landing in the wrong hands and i think this is what the OP is trying to get accross and ask peoples opinions on. The OP was not saying that people shouldnt be allowed to use this bit if it appropriate to do so, just worried about what would happen if it gets into the wrong hands (this is how i see it anyway)
At no time did the OP or anyone else on this thread ask for personal critisim over the bits that they do or do not use and it is becoming into a bit of slanging match really which i dont think is what any of us want on this forum.

Think this is a case of agree to disagree


OP if you really want to get somewhere with this you will need hard evidence unfortunately and support from others. Contact the BHS and other organisations about this and see where it gets you. Even if it doesnt have the result you want it will hopefully raise awareness and that is always a good thing!
Yet again education or lack of it from both sides in our horsey community seems to be at fault here
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Thanks, I feel your take on my position acurate.

However, I am a mere lone voice and I fear my letter will end in the swing top filing cabinet.

Others far more knowlegable have expressed their concerns (see my opening post) and yet the powers that be are silent!
 
The problem with people, not just horsey people but everyone is that we are afraid of getting shot down and turned away. Not enough people are willing to stand up for what they believe in.
I think you should at least try if you really believe in what you are saying! You would have my support anyway if thats worth anything, not that i am anybody in the horse world either.
 
Its taken me this long to read through all the posts!!!!

Well to put in my twopenny's worth (and probably get shot down in the process!!).... I have seen horses ridden in swales at county level, with what I think is an unaturally forced outline -tight and high through the neck, not really taking a contact or working through from behind (and we all know that the 'vertical' head carriage comes from working through properly!)

FMM, RushyJ and others.... you all obviously show at very high levels.... would a level playing field in terms of what you put in the horses mouth in the show ring not be better - advantageous to all? You can still ride at home with barbed wire, a raspberry shoelace or mind power alone!!;);)

And i'm not even called 'antagonist'!!!!:D:D
 
jumpinghorse said:
I can imagine this is a joke post and instead of sitting in a chair deadly serious they're laughing their head off!!

Here's a strong bit: http://www.pointernet.pds.hu/lovaglas/lovaskep/Mikmar Combination Bit.jpg

I was reading a book (a 'story' book) and the main character thought a four ring snaffle was 'serious and would hurt the horse a lot' :rolleyes: not compared to the bit above.

It's better to use a strong bit gently than hauling on a snaffle, even if the rider is amazing you still get horses that need a stronger bit than a snaffle..
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I don't have time to read all the pages here but just wanted to say that you are quite wrong about the Mikmar Combination bit - it exerts pressure in several places but is also designed to release, has a wide angled piece across the tongue and bars and is multi adjustable.

I would use one if I wasn't completely a fan of Myler bits which are all I use at the moment.

any bit can cause harm though used badly and in the wrong hands
 
I think you make a very good point abercrombie&titch having a regulation on what bits could be used at what levels would put people on more of a level playing field

Rules like this will not come into effect if (as i said on previous post) people worry about getting shot down! If we really want to change the system we need REALLY put the effort in and change it!
 
But it IS a level playing field as we can all use pretty much what we like!
If a judge doesn't like the bit being used, they will tell the competitor and give some advice about options.

I run a 4 day residential showing camp every year, where top judges come along, ride the horses and offer suggestions for bitting if they feel that improvement could be made to the horses way of going.

I truly do not believe that the problem is so prevalent that there needs to be new legislation about it. And bearing in mind there are photographers at pretty much every affiliated show, if there are so many horses "in pain" from their Swales, then there should be plenty of pics available.

The horse you saw going badly with the Swales would probably go equally as badly in a double - but fortunately, from what you say, this is in the minority.
 
I'm going to respond only to the original post otherwise I'll be here all day.

I don't think swales bits should be banned from the show ring, no. However, there would be a far easier way of eliminating those being used only for fashion, and here it is.

In classes where horses are supposedly being judged largely on manners (I'm thinking hacks, hunters, riding horses), they should be marked down if they require more severe bits. Stronger bits do not equal manners, they equal submission. Those of you saying you've never seen a horse "in distress" in one of these bits - surely that's often because they're behaving purely to avoid being reprimanded by the bit? Horses are very good at hiding discomfort, as flight animals it's a survival technique they have developed.

I can 100% guarantee that if someone had a horse that went equally as well in a double, but was using a swales with a foot-long shank because it was "the next big thing and so-n-so-name has one", found out they'd be marked down for it, it would not be in that horses mouth at its next outing.

This may also encourage the rider who uses the swales because it "suits" their horse - which will take off with the judge otherwise - to go home and work with that horse to ensure they know how to seek a contact and work correctly as opposed to "putting their head in the right place because otherwise it hurts" and to respect the rider's aids.

Again, if said horse is a bit of a g*t and does not respond to that schooling, that I don't think it's unfair to mark it down against a horse that has.

Not going to happen, but that would be my preferred approach, rather than an outright ban.
 
Yes we really do need more antagonists in the world!We need more people willing to stand up for their opinions and put them accross to people higher up in the world not just friends who also wont do anything about the situation.


As i said in many of posts the main factor is the lack of education that a lot of people have about many issues including bitting which causes them just to follow trends and not actually think what would be best for their horse.
 
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