Ideas for training the traumatised, reactive horse…

[Ratface]

Have a look at Jo Davis racing on Facebook. She has a very scared horse in called Jimmy and it's been really interesting watching the videos of his progress and how she deals with him (helps she has a rider who she can video whilst she is on the ground but still some good tips.)

I can endorse this recommendation. I follow Jo Davis Racing and also her grandfather Mick Easterby on Facebook. Both successful racehorse trainers who are sensible and prioritise their horses' welfare over winning at all costs.

 

[paddy555]

when we meet something spooky out hacking. I would also like some vertical flexion, as her going around with her head in the air on high alert won’t help.

have you taught her to lower her head on command? this will help with the high alert thing. Leaving aside anything technical such as vertical flexion if she learns to lower her head on command when she sees something spooky she will be safer and easier to deal with as she stands relaxed with her head down.

If you teach this on the ground you can transfer it to ridden.

 

[maya2008]

have you taught her to lower her head on command? this will help with the high alert thing. Leaving aside anything technical such as vertical flexion if she learns to lower her head on command when she sees something spooky she will be safer and easier to deal with as she stands relaxed with her head down.

If you teach this on the ground you can transfer it to ridden.

I'm working on it at the moment. I've found a winter training series on YouTube by a guy called 'The Natural Horseman' and we're doing the groundwork from that. She needs me to do LOTS of groundwork with her, so we can spend enough time each day with me asking her to do new things, her figuring them out, getting rewards, increasing her trust.

Ground tying is in progress, I lengthened her rope today and that went without a hitch (phew!), so it does actually coil on the ground now. She flexes left and right with the western style 'bumps' rather than constant pressure, puts her head lower and will back up to a cue from the rope. She spooked today at something in the bushes, got to the end of the rope and STOPPED! I was so proud, tonnes of carrots for that one!

 

[maya2008]

Getting braver…had to tell her off today twice for being over eager with the carrots. Look of horror, spinning away…then the rope hit the ground. ‘Oh, that means stop and wait and then I get a treat!’ thinks pony, stops dead, ears forward, looking at me, ‘treat please?’ Teaching her to ground tie was very handy!

We have a slightly more reliable ‘back up’, the beginnings of ‘slow down’, a sort of turn on the forehand (me seeing what she’d be like with constant pressure on her side to ask her to move over - fine) and a new rope to play with, which I managed to start gently swinging round and over up onto her without too much drama today.

Bridle-wise I have bought a loping hackamore off marketplace to play around with as something that might work for Willow. I hacked my NF in it today after a quick groundwork session. She was very responsive in it, and was neck reining by the end, clever little pony that she is! I was pleased to see that it gave more control than a crossunder or a snaffle (and that I could stop her eating grass in it - another concern with native ponies!!).

 

[Caol Ila]

I like loping hacks. Sort of a bosal-light. Not as precise as the real thing but similar action and a damn sight cheaper than a good one, and in my experience there’s no point in getting a low quality bosal.

I started Hermosa in one, knowing it would take a wee while to sort her out with a real hackamore.

 

[maya2008]

I like loping hacks. Sort of a bosal-light. Not as precise as the real thing but similar action and a damn sight cheaper than a good one, and in my experience there’s no point in getting a low quality bosal.

I started Hermosa in one, knowing it would take a wee while to sort her out with a real hackamore.

I thought the lack of precision was us figuring it out together on day 1 of trying it! Stop was feather light and she dropped her head (after being startled) to a shake of the reins, but left and right were more precise with the neck rein and the reins in one hand rather than riding two handed. Two handed I got too much or nothing at all, so it was kind of a snaking movement down the path as I said ‘over here’ then ‘no not that much’ then ‘oops we’re going too much the other way now’ . With neck reining we were much more precise and things improved hugely.

I think it will work for Willow, but will practise lots on the older pony first. Willow will very much appreciate having no contact most of the time and only a light touch when needed. Obviously the real thing would be better, as you have moved into, but I have no idea where to start with that!!!

 

[Caol Ila]

Yeah, it will work but it doesn't work on signals to the degree that a bosal does. The bosal is a fairly rigid thing and gives a much more instantaneous release because it should be perfectly fitted and balanced to the horse. The loping hackamore is soft and pliable, so the fit doesn't have to be as precise, but neither are the signals.

For a green horse, it matters less because you won't be working that precisely anyway.

But I did find that my horse learned things a bit quicker once we got out of the loping hack and into the bosal. I still have the loping hack but just as a backup, in case the headstall on the bosal breaks or something weird like that.

 

[Andie02]

Have a look at Jo Davis racing on Facebook. She has a very scared horse in called Jimmy and it's been really interesting watching the videos of his progress and how she deals with him (helps she has a rider who she can video whilst she is on the ground but still some good tips.)

I have thought about these comments and just cannot leave this here.

I can endorse this recommendation. I follow Jo Davis Racing and also her grandfather Mick Easterby on Facebook. Both successful racehorse trainers who are sensible and prioritise their horses' welfare over winning at all costs.

With regards to the horse Jimmy.
When I saw on fb that Jo was struggling with getting him to accept a rider, I emailed her and suggested that she tried using blinkers. She was very dismissive of my suggestion, and said that she wanted to do it the normal way. I mean, what's 'normal ' about any pony or horse ?! Most can have their funny little quirks. I left it at that, and watched the videos of her continued struggling and swearing, stressing the horse out, and herself as well. A whole week later she announced that she had ' reached for the blinkers' ! A whole week of upsetting the horse more than necessary, and that teaches them the wrong way, as they are getting away with it. Within a couple of days of using blinkers, suddenly, the horse was described as being totally different by the rider Kenny, and was putting it all together. He was going so much better.

I had explained to her in my email that a family friend, who was a very experienced old 'horseman', had taught me a lot getting on for almost 50 yrs ago. He taught me how to break in. With his help we broke in a very reactive horse for a client, that was an absolute sod for broncking. His answer to this problem was blinkers, ( or substitutes for blinkers even) because, he told me, what frightens them the most, is 'seeing a rider up there', on their backs. And then to keep them on for several weeks whilst riding them away, and until they were riding confidently.
That very reactive horse, eventually went on to be a top show jumper with one of our older great riders, Michael Whittaker, with the horse still in the same ownership. In fact the horse broke a 'World Record'.

I have never had so much as a 'thank you' from her, in fact she even used my very words on her fb page, telling people (her fan club) that what frightens them most, 'is seeing a rider up there' ! This was a genuine suggestion from me, when I saw her struggling, and I thought that I could maybe give her an answer to the problem. I was, after all, breaking in, when Jo was still probably only a twinkle in her Dad's eyes, or was a babe in arms. I didn't know that her Grandfather is Mick Easterby, you would have thought that she would have learnt more tips and tricks from him. I also think that her swearing on her fb page is very unprofessional and unnecessary.

 

[Bob notacob]

Some horses are just "very speshul" Oliver ,a member of Bobs herd (and much to Bobs eternal exasperation) is ,how can we say it unique ,(fecking nuts says Bob).For 10 years I have given Oliver a handful of Bobs feed and he expects it ,kicks the door etc then says F off you want to kill me after he has got it it ,drives Bob nuts!I could not put a headcollar on Oliver in the field despite 10 years of being Mr nice guy. Whilst I love Oliver to bits he is as his herd leader would say, "a nutter"

 

[ycbm]

I think you're getting plenty of ideas here from people. I just want to say both to you, and for others reading this thread in future, that not all horses are safe to be ridden and it will be no shame on you if you reach a stage of training that doesn't include riding and decide to call it quits for everyone's safety.

I have known two, one owned by a friend that got ridden by one of the "I can ride anything" western style trainers but nobody else could ride it. In retrospect, I think that one had something like kissing spines but there was no x ray for that at the time. And my own, a very nervous, over reactive horse I bought thinking i could resolve his problems. I got him backed then was dumped after some massive explosions and could have been seriously hurt. He turned out to be going blind.

You sound like you're making good progress and getting a happier horse as a result. Long may that continue.
.

 

[Gamebird]

I didn't know that her Grandfather is Mick Easterby, you would have thought that she would have learnt more tips and tricks from him. I also think that her swearing on her fb page is very unprofessional and unnecessary.

I really don't think he is! Mick has 3 children, and none of their children is Jo Davis. One of his grandchildren is Jo Mason, the flat jockey, so I wonder if wires have been crossed?

 

[maya2008]

Well...I did finally go and have a look at the videos of Jimmy. He's more handled than Willow, and reacts differently. She's terrified of anything that relates to her past experiences of being held by a head collar and having her body controlled, while her feet were done or she was sedated for the vet or whatever. You can touch the rest of her with impunity and she reacts, in the field, and when led, like any other green horse, those triggers aside. She was INCREDIBLY tolerant yesterday when my NF decided to be a royal pain in the behind, trying to grab Willow's lead rope out of my hand, pushing in front of me for fuss, getting in the way when we were trying to do flexions. Then Willow spooked at the birds in the bushes (shooting season!) and NF went with her, so I knew she'd keep going and let the rope go. They got back to 'safety', whereupon Willow looked for me. 'Mum, where are you? It's not safe over there. Come here, with us!' All concerned face and walking back towards me. I came over, she checked I was fine (cute!), I picked up the lead rope and off we wandered again, without her annoying friend this time, as if it hadn't happened. She works WITH me on her triggers and I can see her trying, she comes up to me every morning even though she knows that the desensitisation part of our day, so I'm going to ask her to let things touch her that she won't like. She stops and thinks about things sometimes, then helps me help her. She has the 'worried' face at times that Jimmy has, but no pinched/drawn expression. Always open and communicating and trying her best.

 

[St Nicnaclaus]

Well...I did finally go and have a look at the videos of Jimmy. He's more handled than Willow, and reacts differently. She's terrified of anything that relates to her past experiences of being held by a head collar and having her body controlled, while her feet were done or she was sedated for the vet or whatever. You can touch the rest of her with impunity and she reacts, in the field, and when led, like any other green horse, those triggers aside. She was INCREDIBLY tolerant yesterday when my NF decided to be a royal pain in the behind, trying to grab Willow's lead rope out of my hand, pushing in front of me for fuss, getting in the way when we were trying to do flexions. Then Willow spooked at the birds in the bushes (shooting season!) and NF went with her, so I knew she'd keep going and let the rope go. They got back to 'safety', whereupon Willow looked for me. 'Mum, where are you? It's not safe over there. Come here, with us!' All concerned face and walking back towards me. I came over, she checked I was fine (cute!), I picked up the lead rope and off we wandered again, without her annoying friend this time, as if it hadn't happened. She works WITH me on her triggers and I can see her trying, she comes up to me every morning even though she knows that the desensitisation part of our day, so I'm going to ask her to let things touch her that she won't like. She stops and thinks about things sometimes, then helps me help her. She has the 'worried' face at times that Jimmy has, but no pinched/drawn expression. Always open and communicating and trying her best.

She's lucky to have you!

 

[Andie02]

I really don't think he is! Mick has 3 children, and none of their children is Jo Davis. One of his grandchildren is Jo Mason, the flat jockey, so I wonder if wires have been crossed?

I was only going on what Ratface had said. But thank you for that info.

 

[maya2008]

First foray into the big field today, with a 2yo friend as nanny pony. Spooked massively at the gate, then waited under the tree for me. Desperately wanted me to keep her focused on the carrot game, and not on the fact that we were in that field without all her buddies and she'd not been in there for a while and there was a pony she didn't know in the field next door and it was windy and raining and.... Three spooks total - the gate, a stick lying on the floor, and the new pony. Lots of stopping and thinking about things, whereupon I had to go against every natural inclination to just pull and remember to tug and release until she started moving again. I don't think she processes terribly fast, as she likes to stop and think a lot. That might be part of the puzzle as to why she had such trouble with initial handling. That and the fact that she thinks every longish roundish thing is a real, live snake. If it's flat? No problem, unsure but not terrified. Round, dark coloured, and touching the ground? She's gone.

Took a while to get her back IN her normal field - too busy spooking at the gate, a snake-like twig near it, the water butt on the other side. When she got in though, and head collar off, she was just so relaxed and happy.

 

[GypsGal1718]

milestone equestrian has a fluffy sidepull, it is around £120 to note it is very gentle and not as stable as a traditional sidepull

Milo Luxe Sheepskin Bitless Bridle

Note: These bridles are made to order so orders may take up to 16 weeks to ship but we can mix and match sizes if your horse needs a different noseband or headstall size. Please email for semi custom orders to confirm which parts of the bridle will be different sizes once you place your order...

shopmilestoneeq.com

 

[maya2008]

milestone equestrian has a fluffy sidepull, it is around £110 to note it is very gentle and not as stable as a traditional sidepull

Just seen your link! Wow that's fluffy! Not sure if it'd be overkill but definitely fits the 'fluffy sidepull' category!

 

[GypsGal1718]

yeah i think its alot but there are not many fluffy sidepulls out there!

 

[maya2008]

Well...today we had no spooks in the big field, and an easy walk in and out through the gate. Still nervous in there and not settled, but is really loving her walks each day. I tried her with different headcollars (prompted by me going 'splat' in the mud and dropping the headcollar she normally uses!) and she'll take anything that I can put on over her ears then do up by the clip under her chin, but we're not there yet with anything I have to do up by the buckle. Will keep working on ropes over her neck and dangling things!

She's getting more used to my husband too, as he's leading her friend each time. It'll be him trimming her hooves, so they do need to make friends eventually! I'm thinking we'll just have to use domosedan to get her vaccinated. The dentist is fine, he's so amazing he's like a horse whisperer, even the difficult ones just stand there and sigh and let him do whatever he wants. He would willingly come a few times to get to know her before actually doing anything too. The vet though...

 

[YourValentine]

Can you ask the vet for the vaccine to administer yourself? No idea of that's legal here, but might be better than traumatising her more with sedation amd restraint for the vet to do it?

 

[maya2008]

Tonight was one of those moments that reminded me why feral ponies are so special. She didn’t want to come out of her field in the howling wind. Took 5 minutes to convince her to cross the threshold. But when she did decide to trust me, she was all in. Little tame 2yo was nervous as anything, but Willow kept her eyes on me and followed calmly behind, focusing on following instructions and doing what she was asked. We stopped in the middle for flexions, backing up and those sorts of things and again, she stood quietly in the middle of an open field, tarpaulin flapping nearby, wind buffeting us… and listened. Such a good girl.

 

[maya2008]

Rug training is the aim right now - to go with the horrendous weather! Got a quarter sheet on and unfolded, saddlecloth today (which was apparently a terrifying predator for the first 5 minutes of introductions!). If I can dry out the spare rugs that live on the gate, I should be able to figure out her size and hopefully get something on her before the next bout of endless rain!

Took her to the tie up area for hay munching, getting used to me standing above her on the mounting block and brushing yesterday. She’s so much more nervous around food! Time will fix that… she wasn’t all that bothered about me being higher up, until I stomped on the top step and make a noise - glared at me and swung away a couple of times then ignored it. The most frightening moment of her whole ‘walk’ was my husband appearing from behind his car. She left at that, but I could flap the quarter sheet and she just stood at the end of the rope.

 

[maya2008]

Saddlecloths of all colours today - fine. Ride on 4ft9 mesh rug spread out over her back - fine. Picked up a 5ft6 rug and she was like, ‘Whoa that’s scary!’ So got it on and off but didn’t unfold completely. I have an idea of size now though so will order one.

Tried her bridle on - it’s verging on too small and I think the browband is too tight . Little NF is very happy because she has decided she owns that bridle, but I do need to look for a bigger one for Willow as it was a case of folding her ears to get them in and that’s not great - especially on the biggest it will go! She liked the concept though, and I could hold her in it easily when she spooked (massive improvement on the headcollar)! I didn’t pull her forelock through as we’d got it on so I was leaving it there for today!

 

[Caol Ila]

I have the same one. They run really small. God knows why. It just about fit Hermosa but I had to faff a lot with the fiador to make it not tight around her jaw. She wears cob size everything and has a really narrow Spanish head, so I am not sure what this thing is designed to fit well. A very tiny horse. I put it on Fin once, who has a short but wide Highland head, and it was hopeless.

The split reins were also stupidly long (on a bridle that only fits a very small horse...why??), and I ended up cutting them to a manageable length.

Unfortunately, there aren't many loping hacks available to buy in the UK so you're a bit short of options. I made it work but found her a real bosal (custom made by a woman in Canada) within a few months.

 

[maya2008]

I have the same one. They run really small. God knows why. It just about fit Hermosa but I had to faff a lot with the fiador to make it not tight around her jaw. She wears cob size everything and has a really narrow Spanish head, so I am not sure what this thing is designed to fit well. A very tiny horse. I put it on Fin once, who has a short but wide Highland head, and it was hopeless.

The split reins were also stupidly long (on a bridle that only fits a very small horse...why??), and I ended up cutting them to a manageable length.

Unfortunately, there aren't many loping hacks available to buy in the UK so you're a bit short of options. I made it work but found her a real bosal (custom made by a woman in Canada) within a few months.

View attachment 131895

Willow wears a cob headcollar on the largest setting. I have looked on the internet for a bigger loping hackamore but no luck so far. It is absolutely perfect in every way except the size - so annoying! I think it’s designed for an Arab head - narrow and tiny!

 

[Caol Ila]

I looked on the internet for a while. Really, a while.

The only other one I could find available in the UK was this: https://western-saddler.co.uk/products/buckaroo-leather-loping-soft-nosed-hackamore

It's rather pricey, and my experience of dealing with that company is that she's very nice, but you'll get stuff when you get it, which might be in your lifetime if you're lucky.

Had I wanted to stick with loping hacks rather than go with the full monty of a bosal, I would have either contacted friends in the States and asked them to pop by western tack shops, or posted on COTH and asked for recommendations. Some US shops will send stuff to the UK.

 

[maya2008]

I looked on the internet for a while. Really, a while.

The only other one I could find available in the UK was this: https://western-saddler.co.uk/products/buckaroo-leather-loping-soft-nosed-hackamore

It's rather pricey, and my experience of dealing with that company is that she's very nice, but you'll get stuff when you get it, which might be in your lifetime if you're lucky.

Had I wanted to stick with loping hacks rather than go with the full monty of a bosal, I would have either contacted friends in the States and asked them to pop by western tack shops, or posted on COTH and asked for recommendations. Some US shops will send stuff to the UK.

The price ! Especially if you add some leather to the noseband so you can actually have some control!

Would you back straight into a bosal? I am worried about control in a sidepull if she spooks. She’s otherwise the sweetest mare who would always try to do whatever I ask, but spooking… she’s reactive so it’s dramatic and she will spend a good amount of time doing it once we first leave the yard I think! With the loping hackamore she spooked, met the harder rope on her nose and stopped, stepping back so the pressure released.

 

[Caol Ila]

The price ! Especially if you add some leather to the noseband so you can actually have some control!

Would you back straight into a bosal? I am worried about control in a sidepull if she spooks. She’s otherwise the sweetest mare who would always try to do whatever I ask, but spooking… she’s reactive so it’s dramatic and she will spend a good amount of time doing it once we first leave the yard I think! With the loping hackamore she spooked, met the harder rope on her nose and stopped, stepping back so the pressure released.

People do but I didn't. I backed in a rope halter with reins clipped to the side but she's like the least reactive horse in the world. I wasn't that worried about her spooking and bogging off with me.

Switched out of it quickly, though. Rope halters really suck in terms of giving precise cues and a good release when you're pulling back on them. They twist and move a lot. They're not exactly designed for riding.

A good bosal costs an arm, your leg, and a first born child. It seems the cheap ones don't work that well and can rub your horse's face. But people seem to do okay with them. I was glad that loping hackamore fit her well enough so I could get a sense of how it worked for her and dither over whether or not I wanted to invest in the real thing, which is really investing yourself in that style of training.

If she'd been sharper, I might have continued with my original plan of bitting her up like a normal English-trained horse and backed her in one of those cavessons with a bit attachment.

I'd started bitting up, which went fine, and then one day she was really weird about it. I called the vet and she found a loose wolf tooth, which she pulled. Horse was still funny about taking the bit. I could have continued working on it, but I went, Oh, screw it, this horse probably doesn't need one anyway. I had the vaquero training thing in my head -- I'd tried Fin in a (relatively cheap) bosal but he's not a good candidate for it because if he can easily take the steering off you, he will. The only bitless thing that works for him is a mechanical hackamore with fairly meaningful shanks. But I usually ride him in a bit. Hermosa, being a nice youngster without a weird history, and PRE to boot, so bred for centuries to be very light and responsive, is a much better hackamore horse.

 

[maya2008]

I am happy to say I've fixed the problem (well enough) by swapping to a larger browband. I can now get her ears in! Have stolen that from my husband's bridle so now searching for a full browband in tan.

Rug arrived today too. Working on that one!

 

[rextherobber]

I am happy to say I've fixed the problem (well enough) by swapping to a larger browband. I can now get her ears in! Have stolen that from my husband's bridle so now searching for a full browband in tan.

Rug arrived today too. Working on that one!

Look at Horsemanship Saddlery browbands.