Improving leisure horse welfare

[stangs]

Issues in leisure horse welfare come up frequently on here, but I very rarely see people offering suggestions on how these issues could be improved upon rather than just criticising the industry as a whole whilst having horses of their own. So I thought I'd start a thread on it.

For me, one of the biggest issues is lack of turnout. I think an increase in surfaced track liveries could help with this, especially given growing obesity concerns, and encouraging movement in smaller turnout areas with a lot of mud. But, above all, I don’t think a livery that can’t provide proof of horses having access to turnout all year round should be able to be BHS approved. (Personally, I’d want rules on turnout to be much stricter, but appreciate that such a change would have to be gradual).

Then there’s a major issue as regards owner education. I don’t know what would be the right way to address this - perhaps needing to pass an exam as came up in France - but things I think no one should be permitted to own a horse without knowing include:

• Equine behaviour: e.g. the discomfort ethogram, why the 3Fs are as important as they are, the fact that dominance is BS, basic equine cognition as well
• Easily recognisable signs of whether a saddle fits the horse and the rider
• Alongside basic first aid and recognising signs of disease, knowing some frequent issues that cause ‘bad behaviour’ (e.g. PSSM)
• Recognising a slightly lame horse; not just knowing that head bobbing = lame

What else would people add?

 

[HappyHollyDays]

I have unlimited turnout but it’s on rye grass and a complete no go in the summer for DP who has EMS and B who is a recovered laminitic. This year I managed to get an acre paddock which I’ve converted to a track and I’m gobsmacked at the difference in the two of them. No hot hooves, no swollen sheaths and not a muzzle in sight. The only time DP has been as healthy was when I took him back to Germany in 2016 and he was on a mud control paddock, stabled and on long meadow grass for 4 hours a day. I know from his family history his insulin problems are purely genetic but I’m confident that this year I will be able to control them and he won’t end up the same way his older sister did. As for owners education I had him on part livery from 3 to 5 and they didn’t have a clue what the problem was and it wasn’t until I started looking after him 24/7 and researching IR I understood what was going on. Large turnout herds aren’t necessarily the answer, rather rough grazing, no feed and a lot more exercise might be the way forward.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I agree about turnout. I think we've got to move back to herd turnout and take the risk of injury for animal welfare. They then have more space to move. I personally hate individual postage stamps, horses racing along the fence line when their neighbour comes in.
Far too many horses are working through pain and people just can't see it. I don't know how we move on from this but we've got to move away from she/he's just sensitive, oh he's always been like that, he's lazy, he's hot headed etc. I don't think an exam would work but maybe just more studies about signs of pain shown over social media.

 

[Caol Ila]

Interesting thread, but an intractible problem, really. At least an unenforceable one.

Part of it is enforceable, and the BHS should make it so. No BHS approval for yards that do not offer year-round turn-out. 100% agree. There are a million yards that are not BHS approved, and I don't know what can be done about them, but at least it sets a standard for welfare, and other places may eventually stagger into line. BHS already have their little checkboxes. Just add year-round turnout to the list. That's not an 'out there' idea at all.

And I get that not everything is straightforward. I mean, my old horse could not be in a herd. The criteria would need to be agile enough to fit around certain situations and individual horses. That's also where creativity comes in, like track systems. In the UK -- or at least in this part of it -- I see very little creativity. "Oh, dear, there's just no grass." Or, "if it can't go into a herd in a boggy field, we can't deal." I saw set-ups in the States that were far cleverer -- horses could have freedom of movement, socialization, all on limited-to-no grazing.

With owner education, I think all you can do is offer opportunities. And increase the standards for trainers/instructors. When I hear BHS instructors yelling, "Kick him! Kick harder," I can't say that I am wildly impressed. You don't develop empathetic horsepeople when little kids are taught that when in doubt, kick harder.

I don't think requiring people to be licensed to own a horse is very feasible. It would be a bureaucratic nightmare to administer. And who sets the standards? Who designs the tests? As we all know, if you ask ten horse people about something, you'll get eleven answers.

 

[stangs]

I don't think an exam would work but maybe just more studies about signs of pain shown over social media.

I think the problem with social media is that it's too much of an echo chamber. The people that care/are interested would find out about these issues as they'd be following people that post about them; the people that don't care, or don't know to care, wouldn't. Plus, there's a lot of "it doesn't apply to me" going on. I recall someone I knew reposting something about "horses have thinner skin than originally thought"... but that didn't change how much she used the stick - and she definitely wasn't using it as a light extension of the arm.

 

[stangs]

With owner education, I think all you can do is offer opportunities. And increase the standards for trainers/instructors. When I hear BHS instructors yelling, "Kick him! Kick harder," I can't say that I am wildly impressed. You don't develop empathetic horsepeople when little kids are taught that when in doubt, kick harder.

100%. I think we also have, in part, low welfare standards in RS to blame, where you've got such switched off horses that children learn that big kicks are the only way to get anywhere.

 

[Shilasdair]

Just curious - what are your qualifications to be deciding what leisure horse welfare should ideally be?

 

[Shilasdair]

100%. I think we also have, in part, low welfare standards in RS to blame, where you've got such switched off horses that children learn that big kicks are the only way to get anywhere.

Riding school horses are not 'switched off' - not everyone knows how to find, let alone press their buttons.

 

[teapot]

Interesting thread, but an intractible problem, really. At least an unenforceable one.

Part of it is enforceable, and the BHS should make it so. No BHS approval for yards that do not offer year-round turn-out. 100% agree. There are a million yards that are not BHS approved, and I don't know what can be done about them, but at least it sets a standard for welfare, and other places may eventually stagger into line. BHS already have their little checkboxes. Just add year-round turnout to the list. That's not an 'out there' idea at all.

All year turnout for BHS approved rs and/or livery yards gets you highly commmended. So rather than adding to the list, you're suggeesting changing the entire approvals scheme if it was to become a requirement of basic approval.

Just to play devil's advocate - one of the best training centres in the UK has veryyy limited winter turnout but their horses look and feel fantastic over the winter, compared to a highly commended rs I know that has 24/7 turnout 365 days a year. It would mean inner city yards becoming a thing of the past too. Also just because something happens for an inspection doesn't mean it happens the other 364 days of the year.

IMHO the biggest thing that needs to change in the leisure industry is the realisation it is a business. Everyone, human and horse, will reap that benefit.

 

[Melody Grey]

Define ‘leisure horse’; needs vary so much on workload level and amount, whether the horse is under veterinary orders, the type of yard and facilities you have access to, type of horse and age....etc, etc. I suspect there are too many variables to be able to have a workable, relevant set of guidelines.

 

[Winters100]

I also don't believe that 'licensing' of people to allow them to own horses would work. I have seen horses owned by total novices who have great care, because their owners are aware of what they don't know, and keep them in places where they have appropriate professional help. I also wonder what you would do about people who own competition horses as 'absentee owners'. We have 1 lady at our yard who owns 3 lovely dressage horses. I have met her only a few times, she comes every few months, and once in a blue moon sits on one of them to be led around by the trainer. They are ridden and cared for by a pro, all are in great condition, but I suppose she would fail the proposed test.

Also is a 'leisure horse' one who does not compete at all, or one that only competes to a low level? Would youngsters fall out of the category if they go on to higher level? To me it is just not workable, and would never get attention from a government to pass such legislation, as in any case there are far bigger numbers of other pets, such as cats or dogs.

 

[Bruce17]

Definitely turn out. I'm in East Yorkshire, I know its flat so it floods but there is basically nowhere within a reasonable distance of me that does 24/7 turnout. Nowhere. My horse hates being stabled but there's simply nowhere I can move her to. I can't afford to buy my own land and even if I could there's nothing available.

I'm considering selling her, not because I don't like her but because I can't provide her with the life she needs.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

If you mandate year round turnout, you’ll just get horses turned out on boggy patches of mud and YOs claiming all year turnout.

If people don’t value turnout, mandating it for BHS approval won’t make them embrace the concept.

 

[honetpot]

I think it is in practical to have all year turnout in some areas, on grass. I have kept horses on the edge of a flood plain and on clay, and as long as they have turnout on a fairly dry area, it doesn't have to be huge, and they have forage and company, they manage very well. I have never had one with mud fever. I am a convert to Mud Contol mats, and I think if you can make a big enough area for them to dry out on and stand to eat, IME there is nothing most horse like more than slopping around in mud and water for some part of the day.
There seems to be an obsession with rugging and clean horses, when lots do little work, and just get hot and fat, especially if they are kept in over twelve hours a day. There is a misconception that if a horse is muddy and has a long mane, it's not looked after, and there needs to be far more education on body scoring, and the difference between fat coverage and muscle.
There also needs to be education on what is normal behaviour for equines, that a lot of them now are companion animals and no longer working animals. The BHS system is mainly geared up towards working with horses, or competing, and the largest departments and money is spent on formal education. I may be wrong but when I last did research on what free educational material there was available for horse care, the Blue Cross, and WHW, were the only ones that provided online easily understood guides. I do not know if the BHS has updated its website, but the last time I looked if welfare was mentioned it was only about what they did.
https://www.bluecross.org.uk/advice/horse/what-horses-need-and-natural-behaviour
https://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/advice/general-advice/cutting-costs
Both the above websites have easily understood guides, perhaps if they were promoted more, and endorsed by 'names', it would be an effective way to improve care at little cost to the horse owner.

 

[TheMule]

World Horse Welfare have some excellent webinars that all horse owners should take the time to watch IMO. They have used experts to combine science and good practical horse knowledge specifically to educate your typical horse owner in a really constructive way.
https://www.youtube.com/horsecharity/videos

 

[stangs]

Just curious - what are your qualifications to be deciding what leisure horse welfare should ideally be?

Hang on, let me write this down for future reference: must have qualifications to make a post on a public forum, where anyone can post anything at all anyway, before making controversial opinions like "horses need some turnout", which definitely isn't heavily supported by the science.

Riding school horses are not 'switched off' - not everyone knows how to find, let alone press their buttons.

That's... That's the point. It's all fine and dandy if the staff can get a tune out of a school sour hose, but the novice 6yo I'm teaching isn't going to learn to be a sympathetic rider if they never ride a horse that isn't seriously behind the leg. This is why RS riders have a stereotype of being heavy-handed and being too quick to kick.

 

[stangs]

All year turnout for BHS approved rs and/or livery yards gets you highly commmended. So rather than adding to the list, you're suggeesting changing the entire approvals scheme if it was to become a requirement of basic approval.

Yes. Exactly. Horses having no turnout whatsoever for part of the year is unacceptable. Humans shouldn't have normalised it, and we certainly shouldn't be allowing it go on.

It would mean inner city yards becoming a thing of the past too.

Nonsense. You either source a field to turn them out in, or rotate horses in and out of the city, or turn them out in the arena with haynets. These are all methods currently in use by various RS in London. Then supplement with holidays out of the city. If horses in Lambeth in Lambeth and Camden get all year turnout, albeit limited, there's no excuse. That's about as inner-city as you get.

 

[ycbm]

I'm not saying that anyone on this thread is wrong but the argument about turnout will and can go nowhere legally without proper, high horse numbers, long term scientific studies of the actual, proven, physical and mental effects on horses of lack of turnout.

Many, many horses appear to be very settled and content with little to no turnout. The assertions that it is detrimental need to be proved.
.

 

[ycbm]

rotate horses in and out of the city

I'm unconvinced that this is good for horses. Yes it's lovely to see them kick up their heels at the change of environment, but what happens when the holiday ends? Yet again, I'd want to see proper evidence that this "pulsed" way of managing horses is actually beneficial long term. And then you'd also have to question whether it's right for them to be put back into a detrimental environment at the end of their break at all.
.

 

[Goldenstar]

The vast majority of horses don’t live on BHS approved livery yards so that’s a red herring .
Turnout is very important but great suffering is caused to horses living out 24/7 not getting having owners who make them maintain an acceptable weight .
The fact is once you have a horse ,you have to manage that horse correctly, you bought it ,you choose to become a horse owner, you are responsible.
It’s on your shoulders if it goes wrong .Its slog it’s 365 days a year it’s relentless it’s sometimes extremely depressing but it’s an amazing privilege to have a horse .
That’s the thing we need to get across .
If you can’t access the right livery / situation don’t get a horse it’s feels harsh to say that in my situation but it how it is .
Never has information been more available never has it been easier to educate yourself .

 

[rabatsa]

If you wish to take any donkeys from The Donkey Sanctuary you have to attend a management day to learn how to put on a headcollar, pick out feet, groom ect. Even if you have your BHS stage 4 you have to do this day.

Maybe somewhere that new owners can attend such a day before taking on a horse or pony would be a start.

This is not going to stop most problems from developing but having somewhere that you know there are mentors that you could contact, for reassurance if nothing else, would be a start.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Turnout is a must for me, hence why I travel 30mins to a yard when there are ten within a five minute drive from my house. Only two of the close ones do 24/7 summer turnout and daily turnout in winter and they are full. Only one of those had a school as I moved from the one that doesn’t.

You cannot mandate it, it isn’t fair as some horses genuinely stress and want in. I know Faran likes to come in once every so often for a sleep in summer and when the weather is foul in winter he’s happy in his stable with food and shelter for a few days. He doesn’t stress when in and likes to be out but it’s creating a balance that’s more necessary I think.

Daily turnout of great in theory but it needs to be on suitable ground and in winter that’s just not going to happen for many. Hardstand to me is the way forwards for winter turnout, it’s just expensive for YOs to put down and many people don’t want to poo pick so don’t take care of them and YOs can get frustrated. Faran was on a hardstand for years, no issues, he went in the winter field this year to get him proper herd manners and I was constantly battling mud fever ? swings and roundabouts.

You cannot really police how people keep their horses, horses are like people, individuals and what works for one won’t work for them all.

 

[sbloom]

I'm not sure I'd know where to start. We need so many welfare changes at the lower levels of ownership but we also need to have better role models. Since taking on more of a sport horse saddle brand I've tried following dressage riders here and across the world and eventually I generally unfollow and stick to those who are trying to bring light to the horse-rider relationship, and a better understanding of the horse's body and mind. There are many many horses that aren't "suffering" in the way that this thread might address, but whose bodies and minds are being compromised.

 

[TPO]

You'd hope people would find out the basics before buying a horse but proven by the countless "I've bought/"rescued" a horse now what do I do?" threads on here that isn't the case.

All animals are too easily gotten and horses are relatively cheap to keep with £10-30pw grass/DIY livery. I've liveried with people where that's all they've paid; no vet/farrier/dentist/saddle fitters/feed.

I think that one of the problems is that for every "rule" or guidance some common sense is required so that the individual needs of that horse are considered.

The unfortunate part is that common sense isn't a flower that grows in everyone's garden...

 

[meleeka]

When I moved from a yard with a very helpful YO to a sole use field I worried I wasn’t knowledgeable enough to be in sole charge of my horses welfare. I was quite surprised to find that out of all the owners nearby, I was the most experienced and found that people asked me for advice. Most of those owners bought the horse because they were cheap back then but hadn’t actually thought further than that. We are always learning of course, but some owners didn’t have the first clue about basic things and didn’t have anyone to help when things went wrong.

Some horses don’t need daily turnout, but the majority of leisure horses do. I absolutely agree that owning a horse is a privilege and just because you can, it doesn’t automatically mean you should.
If someone on here said they were getting a dog but they lived in a flat, worked all day and had a busy life so it would only get one short walk, we’d all be aghast but keeping a horse stabled with little company isn’t viewed as harshly.

Personally I consider if I can meet the needs of the animal before I get it, but lots of people just don’t. Back to dogs, how many people own breeds of dogs that need a lot of exercise but can’t provide that, then wonder why they are badly behaved?

 

[Shilasdair]

Hang on, let me write this down for future reference: must have qualifications to make a post on a public forum, where anyone can post anything at all anyway, before making controversial opinions like "horses need some turnout", which definitely isn't heavily supported by the science.

That's... That's the point. It's all fine and dandy if the staff can get a tune out of a school sour hose, but the novice 6yo I'm teaching isn't going to learn to be a sympathetic rider if they never ride a horse that isn't seriously behind the leg. This is why RS riders have a stereotype of being heavy-handed and being too quick to kick.

You are missing the point. You are assuming a 'one size fits all' approach to horse management in the way YOU would keep your horses. In reality horses have different needs (metabolic issues, behavioural issues if turned out, etc.) owners have different needs, every area in the UK has different geography and geology (all year turnout if your fields are on a flood plain might be a challenge), weather, etc.

Even farmers can't keep their cattle out 24/7 due to ground conditions - and they tend to have the machinery to correct problems.

As for riding school horses - how long have you been teaching RS clients? I'm not sure putting a novice rider on a highly tuned, forward thinking and reactive horse is safe - in the same way that men who buy Ferraris seem to crash them within 1/2 mile.

 

[Gloi]

I don't think leisure horses are the real problem in this country. It's the herds of coloured cobs and hill ponies being left mostly unhandled, unchipped and randomly breeding low quality offspring that are suffering most.

 

[Goldenstar]

I don't think leisure horses are the real problem in this country. It's the herds of coloured cobs and hill ponies being left mostly unhandled, unchipped and randomly breeding low quality offspring that are suffering most.

That may make you feel better but I assure it’s not true .
There are huge issues at every level from the the semi feral to elite sport horses and all points in between .

 

[paddy555]

I don't think leisure horses are the real problem in this country. It's the herds of coloured cobs and hill ponies being left mostly unhandled, unchipped and randomly breeding low quality offspring that are suffering most.

I can't comment on coloured cobs as I have no idea about them. I do however know about hill ponies. Everyone is wanting turnout and these ponies have the ultimate in that they live out 24/7 in probably some of the most natural conditions that are available in the UK. They are of course unhandled in that sort of lifestyle and unchipped,
There is work under the contraception scheme and we often see "green" ponies.

I am not sure how you think the hill ponies are suffering. Can you elaborate?
They do breed low quality offspring if you are looking at showing. However they breed sane and sensible ponies for kids.

 

[honetpot]

I'm not saying that anyone on this thread is wrong but the argument about turnout will and can go nowhere legally without proper, high horse numbers, long term scientific studies of the actual, proven, physical and mental effects on horses of lack of turnout.

Many, many horses appear to be very settled and content with little to no turnout. The assertions that it is detrimental need to be proved.
.

Horses on a busy yard and working usually have some equine company, and they are also exercised, if you have been on a few livery yards you see horses that are stood in a box for almost twenty four hours with restricted contact with any living thing.
Pit ponies, who were stabled ponies to the extreme, were stalled, so they could see and touch others, they were also worked and had a human companion for their shift. There is a wonderful youtube video of pit ponies being turned out for a holiday
Unfortunately controlled studies require animals being stressed, do we really want animals stressed to prove that equines need to prove that they need the five freedoms?

• Freedom from hunger and thirst. ...
• Freedom from discomfort. ...
• Freedom from pain, injury and disease. ...
• Freedom from distress and fear. ...
• Freedom to express natural behaviour.

The design of yards and stable layouts seems not to have changed since the days that horse were worked and had owners or grooms who worked with them all day, this is no longer the norm. Having visited a lot of stables in Newmarket some new yards are the equivalent of open plan living for humans, with high ceiling, good ventilation, daylight, and the ability for horse to see each other and the outside at all times.
Horses are living longer like people, and most people want the best for their animals, there are a lot of studies on the welfare of farm animals and helpful guides that tell you how to house them for their welfare, which include space and ventilation. We know poor housing causes disease in livestock because there has been enough money to compare housing systems, and the effect on animal welfare. There is also some data for comparison with animals living outdoors doing better, even in winter, on measurement of their growth.
The sad fact is most farm livestock are being cared for their welfare better than a lot of equines kept on a DIY livery yard with little exercise or turnout.