Improving leisure horse welfare

rabatsa

Confuddled
Joined
18 September 2007
Messages
13,318
Location
Down the lane.
Visit site
Even on the perfect set up some animals would like to point out that of the 5 Freedoms the freedom from discomfort is broken.

Three beasties kept overnight with a loafing area larger than many arenas, cool, sheltered barn with ad lib forage and well bedded open doored stables. The gate onto a grass track is opened for about 12 hours a day at the moment.

One beastie is seriously bothered by biting insects, with ott reaction to them. Keep the track gate closed until all the insects are snoozing for the day to prevent discomfort to this animal and another one who knows that the gate is getting opened at some time that day, will spend her time hanging about waiting for the gate to open and suffers discomfort from lack of eating. Her shouting for the gate to be opened starts around 5am and she will still be standing there come midday if it is not opened for her. The third beastie is inside sheltering from the bities until the gate opens then he heads for the grass. He has the best of it as there is food wherever he stands, also he is never on his own, unlike the other two.

It is all perspective for each individual animal.

Before you all say this is not what you mean everything starts small.
 

Goldenstar

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 March 2011
Messages
46,967
Visit site
I have huge issue with the five freedoms which started out as list to help develop welfare standards on farmed animals .
They how get trotted out all the time like it’s the law but apart from the first and even it needs to be nuanced they not suitable to be used in that way
No responsible horse owner can guarantee all those freedoms all the time without compromising a horses welfare .
 

oldie48

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 April 2013
Messages
7,056
Location
South Worcestershire
Visit site
A 10 acre field formally used for dairy cattle was sold recently for a huge amount of money. New owner currently has two horses out 24/7 strip grazing but still quite a large area for two fat cobs. She's a lovely but very novicely owner who "rescued" her cob from a riding school. He's a nice chap but totally unschooled, grossly overweight and having seem him move, has one gear ie slow walk. If he survives a year without getting laminitis, I'll be surprised. I know she thinks she's giving him a nicer life but actually she's probably killing him. He needs to be off the grass and in hard work. There's no electricity so any fencing is by battery and I've found a determined cob will go through fencing unless it's on mains power but the grass is growing away fast now and basically even with strip grazing, there's just too much grass. TBH I think horses need to be managed according to their needs and not according to a set of rules.
 

meleeka

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 September 2001
Messages
11,645
Location
Hants, England
Visit site
I have huge issue with the five freedoms which started out as list to help develop welfare standards on farmed animals .
They how get trotted out all the time like it’s the law but apart from the first and even it needs to be nuanced they not suitable to be used in that way
No responsible horse owner can guarantee all those freedoms all the time without compromising a horses welfare .
I agree but they should he something to aspire to. Even acknowledging that horses should
have company or space is a start, but some people just don’t consider those freedoms at all.
 

meleeka

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 September 2001
Messages
11,645
Location
Hants, England
Visit site
A 10 acre field formally used for dairy cattle was sold recently for a huge amount of money. New owner currently has two horses out 24/7 strip grazing but still quite a large area for two fat cobs. She's a lovely but very novicely owner who "rescued" her cob from a riding school. He's a nice chap but totally unschooled, grossly overweight and having seem him move, has one gear ie slow walk. If he survives a year without getting laminitis, I'll be surprised. I know she thinks she's giving him a nicer life but actually she's probably killing him. He needs to be off the grass and in hard work. There's no electricity so any fencing is by battery and I've found a determined cob will go through fencing unless it's on mains power but the grass is growing away fast now and basically even with strip grazing, there's just too much grass. TBH I think horses need to be managed according to their needs and not according to a set of rules.
I know someone similar. She’s literally killed quite a few horses with kindness over the years, which is incredibly sad.
 

JBM

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 February 2021
Messages
5,718
Visit site
I agree with more turnout definitely! But one of my horses can’t be turned out with other horses because she attempts to kill them..? fine riding with other horses and chatting to them but does not want to share her grass..a big bully
 

MotherOfChickens

MotherDucker
Joined
3 May 2007
Messages
16,639
Location
Weathertop
Visit site
As an animal owner you have a duty of care for that animal-so if that animal has a condition it’s up to the owner to deal with it and that will sometimes mean compromising on something else. Anyone who has seen my turnout on FB knows I keep them as they were designed to be kept as much as I can. I honestly wouldn’t keep native ponies at livery if I couldn’t control turnout-either to get them out or keep them off it when needed.
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
22,474
Visit site
I don't think leisure horses are the real problem in this country. It's the herds of coloured cobs and hill ponies being left mostly unhandled, unchipped and randomly breeding low quality offspring that are suffering most.

Why do you say they are suffering? The vast majority have acres to roam in, get to forage as nature intended, live in family herds and are actually pretty content with their lot. I’m not saying there aren’t issues to consider, but why is this worse than bluey the cob, being slowly killed with love and kindness from over rugging, over feeding, postage stamp turnout, poor riding etc?

Coming from someone who happily stables/rugs/competes and keeps horses pretty unnaturally in the grand scheme of things
 

Xmasha

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 February 2012
Messages
6,160
Location
Cheshire
Visit site
The 5 freedoms is a great basis on which to start. But its important to accept that these 5 freedoms can be different from horse to horse. Its up to each owner to assess their horses needs. To do that we all need to be better educated, just because youve done it one way for 50 years doesnt necessarily mean its right for the horse you have today. Lack of knowledge is a welfare issue for sure, but i firmly believe that 'Ego' is comparable with that
 

Nudibranch

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 April 2007
Messages
7,096
Location
Shropshire
Visit site
Turnout aside, the one thing I think would make most difference is breeding for soundness. Across every breed. WBs and TBs are the obvious ones but even down to natives, I'd like to see mares in particular with proven history in work and standing up to it before they are bred from.

And better education for some judges, who don't seem to be able to recognise a fit animal, or differentiate between condition and obesity. This filters down to everyone else, so they really need to be leading by example.

Oh and more emphasis on suitable rider weight for their mount. But that's a whole new can of worms.
 

RachelFerd

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 April 2005
Messages
3,623
Location
NW
www.facebook.com
Local authority licensing for livery yards, perhaps run with some consultation through BHS and WHW would be a good starting place. Lots of yards simply not good enough places to keep horses.

Obesity in horses still a major issue too. Can't help but think the local showing circuits continue to give people false idea about what 'healthy' looks like. Showing judges need to be educated on what healthy horse weights are and stop rewarding people's obese heffalump horses.

I'd like to see more stringent expectations around teaching - lots of very uninformed people out there doing low level teaching at RS and locally.

Some of the worst horsemanship I see often comes at the low level showjumping events I end up at - those 50/60/70cm courses are scenes from a horror movie with people yanking horses and ponies around jump-offs. If that goes on at a show I can't imagine its much better at home. I'd like to see a move from speed jump-offs to equitation judging until people are riding at a level where their jump-offs can be ridden with skill.
 

JGC

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 September 2011
Messages
2,498
Location
France
Visit site
I work in Switzerland and they have legislated on animal welfare and, specifically, horses in a way to try to ensure the five freedoms:

https://www.blv.admin.ch/blv/en/home/tiere/tierschutz.html

It's not perfect, but I do think it goes in the right direction. Some of the points:

"Equids must have visual, auditory and olfactory contact with another equid" (some exceptions provided)

"Equids must be kept in groups after they have been weaned from their mother until they are 30 months old or until regular use begins" (there's a footnote to explain 'regular use')

"Equids must be provided with roughage such as feed straw for their natural foraging behaviour, except during pasturing"

"Equids must be provided with sufficient daily movement ... Equids that are not used must be provided with at least two hours of outdoor access daily ... Equids in use must be given at least two hours of outdoor access on at least two days every week" ('used' is

There's an English version of the Animal Protection Ordinance on that link I posted, it's well worth a read. There's a lot of information, so I can't really summarize it all, the parts quoted above often then go into more detail.
 

Wishfilly

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 March 2016
Messages
2,921
Visit site
Horses on a busy yard and working usually have some equine company, and they are also exercised, if you have been on a few livery yards you see horses that are stood in a box for almost twenty four hours with restricted contact with any living thing.
Pit ponies, who were stabled ponies to the extreme, were stalled, so they could see and touch others, they were also worked and had a human companion for their shift. There is a wonderful youtube video of pit ponies being turned out for a holiday
Unfortunately controlled studies require animals being stressed, do we really want animals stressed to prove that equines need to prove that they need the five freedoms?
  • Freedom from hunger and thirst. ...
  • Freedom from discomfort. ...
  • Freedom from pain, injury and disease. ...
  • Freedom from distress and fear. ...
  • Freedom to express natural behaviour.
The design of yards and stable layouts seems not to have changed since the days that horse were worked and had owners or grooms who worked with them all day, this is no longer the norm. Having visited a lot of stables in Newmarket some new yards are the equivalent of open plan living for humans, with high ceiling, good ventilation, daylight, and the ability for horse to see each other and the outside at all times.
Horses are living longer like people, and most people want the best for their animals, there are a lot of studies on the welfare of farm animals and helpful guides that tell you how to house them for their welfare, which include space and ventilation. We know poor housing causes disease in livestock because there has been enough money to compare housing systems, and the effect on animal welfare. There is also some data for comparison with animals living outdoors doing better, even in winter, on measurement of their growth.
The sad fact is most farm livestock are being cared for their welfare better than a lot of equines kept on a DIY livery yard with little exercise or turnout.

It would have to go through an ethics committee, obviously, but yes, if you are going to try and legislate, or make something a licencing rule, then you do need to have proper scientific evidence that it is beneficial for all/the vast majority of equines. These sorts of studies have generally been done to provide the best practice for farm animal welfare.

Yes, you might think it's common sense, but there are an awful lot of horse owners (maybe not vocal on this forum, but they are out there) who disagree or at least don't think winter turnout is a priority/important for whatever reason. So if someone is going to change licencing requirements around this, there does need to be proper evidence, and not just "my personal opinion on what I think is best for all horses".

As has been said upthread, hill ponies arguably have the most natural lifestyle of any horse in the UK, but a lot of people consider there to be welfare problems around that, too. So it can't just be done on personal opinion- there has to be evidence, and yes, that may involved distressing some horses for a period of time for the greater good of all.
 

Red-1

I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Joined
7 February 2013
Messages
18,435
Location
Outstanding in my field!
Visit site
Hacking. I believe the degradation of hacking is contributing to poor welfare.

I look back on my childhood where we would go out for 4 hours at a time, mostly in walk, with stacks of hill work and some canter blasts. Our horses tended to be fitter and, dare I say it, sounder.

With the built up areas, loss of open space, heavy traffic, I think so many horses end up drilled in circles. I think this is mentally and physically poor.

Nothing better than a morning bank scrambling, log popping, view taking, out in a group of 4 or 5, stopping at the pub for a breather.
 

Wishfilly

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 March 2016
Messages
2,921
Visit site
Local authority licensing for livery yards, perhaps run with some consultation through BHS and WHW would be a good starting place. Lots of yards simply not good enough places to keep horses.

Obesity in horses still a major issue too. Can't help but think the local showing circuits continue to give people false idea about what 'healthy' looks like. Showing judges need to be educated on what healthy horse weights are and stop rewarding people's obese heffalump horses.

I'd like to see more stringent expectations around teaching - lots of very uninformed people out there doing low level teaching at RS and locally.

Some of the worst horsemanship I see often comes at the low level showjumping events I end up at - those 50/60/70cm courses are scenes from a horror movie with people yanking horses and ponies around jump-offs. If that goes on at a show I can't imagine its much better at home. I'd like to see a move from speed jump-offs to equitation judging until people are riding at a level where their jump-offs can be ridden with skill.

I agree with a lot of this- licensing for livery yards, and perhaps minimum qualifications for YOs would be a really good start. And yes, anyone can call themselves an instructor and teach with the right insurance- it ought to be a protected title and require certain qualifications.
 

Red-1

I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Joined
7 February 2013
Messages
18,435
Location
Outstanding in my field!
Visit site
I work in Switzerland and they have legislated on animal welfare and, specifically, horses in a way to try to ensure the five freedoms:

https://www.blv.admin.ch/blv/en/home/tiere/tierschutz.html

It's not perfect, but I do think it goes in the right direction. Some of the points:

"Equids must have visual, auditory and olfactory contact with another equid" (some exceptions provided)

"Equids must be kept in groups after they have been weaned from their mother until they are 30 months old or until regular use begins" (there's a footnote to explain 'regular use')

"Equids must be provided with roughage such as feed straw for their natural foraging behaviour, except during pasturing"

"Equids must be provided with sufficient daily movement ... Equids that are not used must be provided with at least two hours of outdoor access daily ... Equids in use must be given at least two hours of outdoor access on at least two days every week" ('used' is

There's an English version of the Animal Protection Ordinance on that link I posted, it's well worth a read. There's a lot of information, so I can't really summarize it all, the parts quoted above often then go into more detail.

Those requirements seem pretty easy to follow and understand. Although, I do know of one yard built in a square, with a 12ft by 12ft open area in the middle, totally surrounded by the stable block. They call it turnout when the horse is put in there while the stable is mucked out. It is where horses on a day off are put for a couple of hours.
 

JGC

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 September 2011
Messages
2,498
Location
France
Visit site
Yes, given the size requirements for the "outdoor area", lots of yards put in patios that open out from the stables, so not exactly turn out - but it has at least meant that the yards with only stables (i.e. nothing outside) and no way for horses to ever to touch each other are gone. Also lots of places would give a bit of hay in the morning, a bit in the evening and the horses would have 20 hours a day with nothing to eat :( so that is clearly no longer allowed.

As I say, I am not saying that their law is perfect, but citing it as an example that legislation on this is possible.
 

Wishfilly

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 March 2016
Messages
2,921
Visit site
I work in Switzerland and they have legislated on animal welfare and, specifically, horses in a way to try to ensure the five freedoms:

https://www.blv.admin.ch/blv/en/home/tiere/tierschutz.html

It's not perfect, but I do think it goes in the right direction. Some of the points:

"Equids must have visual, auditory and olfactory contact with another equid" (some exceptions provided)

"Equids must be kept in groups after they have been weaned from their mother until they are 30 months old or until regular use begins" (there's a footnote to explain 'regular use')

"Equids must be provided with roughage such as feed straw for their natural foraging behaviour, except during pasturing"

"Equids must be provided with sufficient daily movement ... Equids that are not used must be provided with at least two hours of outdoor access daily ... Equids in use must be given at least two hours of outdoor access on at least two days every week" ('used' is

There's an English version of the Animal Protection Ordinance on that link I posted, it's well worth a read. There's a lot of information, so I can't really summarize it all, the parts quoted above often then go into more detail.

This is definitely a good starting point.

I think you have to be realistic when dealing with animal welfare, unfortunately. And by realistic, I mean set really low minimal standards and slowly work up. Because if you don't, then unfortunately either it becomes unenforceable (because no-one can realistically monitor it) or you end up in a situation where charities would be completely overwhelmed with horses that cannot be kept to the required standard.

Even licencing is a tricky proposition, because how do you get over 350,000 people through any sort of licencing program in a timely way?

I think starting with livery yards and instructors would be an easier way to regulate things- but standards would end up being lower than what a lot of people on this thread would like.

FWIW, in an ideal world, I would want every owner to be able to condition score and understand the risks of obesity.
 

IrishMilo

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 April 2020
Messages
2,013
Visit site
I'd like to see more stringent expectations around teaching - lots of very uninformed people out there doing low level teaching at RS and locally.

Some of the worst horsemanship I see often comes at the low level showjumping events I end up at - those 50/60/70cm courses are scenes from a horror movie with people yanking horses and ponies around jump-offs. If that goes on at a show I can't imagine its much better at home. I'd like to see a move from speed jump-offs to equitation judging until people are riding at a level where their jump-offs can be ridden with skill.

Couldn't agree more on both counts. I often wonder how many of the people posting on here things like 'My horse doesn't want to go forward', 'My horse only plays up when jumping' how 'nice' of a rider they are. And I don't mean nice as in let the horse get away with murder, I mean those people you see trotting round very unbalanced trying to yank their horses head in and trying for dear life to get it over a fence only to sock it in the mouth when it goes.
 

MuddyMonster

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 September 2015
Messages
5,629
Visit site
World Horse Welfare have some excellent webinars that all horse owners should take the time to watch IMO. They have used experts to combine science and good practical horse knowledge specifically to educate your typical horse owner in a really constructive way.
https://www.youtube.com/horsecharity/videos

Thank you for sharing that link! I was only thinking the other day I need to up my polework game & just started watching the building strength through groundwork - I'm only about 15 minutes in & had inspiration already :)
 

Gloi

Too little time, too much to read.
Joined
8 May 2012
Messages
12,393
Location
Lancashire
Visit site
H
Why do you say they are suffering? The vast majority have acres to roam in, get to forage as nature intended, live in family herds and are actually pretty content with their lot. I’m not saying there aren’t issues to consider, but why is this worse than bluey the cob, being slowly killed with love and kindness from over rugging, over feeding, postage stamp turnout, poor riding etc?

Coming from someone who happily stables/rugs/competes and keeps horses pretty unnaturally in the grand scheme of things
Have a look at what this look at what this and other rescue groups are dealing with on a regular basis.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/welshrehomingproject/?ref=share
In the last few days they've taken in a few day old foal ,found without its mother and an underweight 2yo with foal at foot and these are not the only group dealing with this sort of situation.
 
Last edited:

ycbm

Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Joined
30 January 2015
Messages
58,833
Visit site
have company or space is a start, but some people just don’t consider those freedoms at all

I have owned one horse who hated every single other horse I tried him with.He was much happier when I kept him alone. He was bred at a small stud, herd kept and had never been on his own since he was born. I bought him unhandled at 4 years old. He was just made that way.

I know of another who was dangerous with others but I don't know his history.

Horses like this must be allowed for. The law to do so would be so ridiculously complicated it would never work, imo.
.
 

Wishfilly

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 March 2016
Messages
2,921
Visit site
Perhaps the time has come to get livery yards onto the boarding of animals act.
Yes, its basic legislation, but it would be a start. However, I cannot see councils liking this as would really add to their workload

I didn't realise, before this thread, that livery yards don't need any kind of licence at all. Something like this would definitely be a good start! Yes, it's really minimal, but minimal oversight is better than none.

(also, there are LOTS of yards without isolation facilities, so it would be an improvement from a biosecurity standpoint).
 

meleeka

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 September 2001
Messages
11,645
Location
Hants, England
Visit site
I have owned one horse who hated every single other horse I tried him with. He was much happier when I kept him alone. He was bred at a small stud, herd kept and had never been on his own since he was born. I bought him unhandled at 4 years old. He was just made that way.

Horses like this must be allowed for. The law to do so would be so ridiculously complicated it would never work, imo.
.
But you tried to provide one of those 5 freedoms because you considered it important (even if he decided otherwise). Plenty of people don’t even consider it, as long as the horse is doing what they bought it for.
 

smolmaus

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 December 2019
Messages
3,546
Location
Belfast
Visit site
"Hill ponies" (and herds of coloured cobs) can be kept with fewer compromises to the 5 freedoms regarding space to move, company and a more natural environment but that doesn't necessarily mean they ARE kept with fewer compromises in general. The nature of them being generally unhandled means health problems can be harder to spot, they might not get the farriery they need, or the dental work. A catastrophic injury like a broken leg might not be picked up for days or weeks. I'm sure it is being done right by some people but I have also seen it done very badly indeed, where the ponies in question would undoubtedly be better off in a yard with daily care, even if they are then more restricted. "Natural is best" has to come with some caveats.
 

IrishMilo

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 April 2020
Messages
2,013
Visit site
H
Have a look at what this look at what this and other rescue groups are dealing with on a regular basis.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/welshrehomingproject/?ref=share
In the last few days they've taken in a few day old foal ,found without its mother and an underweight 2yo with foal at foot and these are not the only group dealing with this sort of situation.

This stuff happens in the wild too though, and it's not an act of cruelty or neglect it's just what happens with animals sometimes. So are you saying you don't agree with allowing horses to be wild?

I think your point of view and that of the OPs demonstrates very well why rules and laws would never work. You'll never find something to please everyone and suit every horse.

More generally, if horses should get X amount of turnout per day, what about the ones who need restricted TO, or genuinely don't like being out?

I think it's a myth that horses would prefer to live out 24/7 if given the choice. I know that many of my horses prefer to come into a sheltered stable with a clean bed to lay down in rather than stand out in the wet and cold.
 

oldie48

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 April 2013
Messages
7,056
Location
South Worcestershire
Visit site
Another issue that springs to mind it the suitability of the grass for grazing horses, unfortunately grass used for dairy cows is too rich for horses and isn't the right mix of grasses but with the demise of our dairy industry (sadly) this pasture is being used for horses. It's a bit like me being confined at McDonalds!
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
22,474
Visit site
H
Have a look at what this look at what this and other rescue groups are dealing with on a regular basis.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/welshrehomingproject/?ref=share
In the last few days they've taken in a few day old foal ,found without its mother and an underweight 2yo with foal at foot and these are not the only group dealing with this sort of situation.

I’m not really sure what your point is?
I think we all know there is an overbreeding problem and that there are welfare issues that charities have to deal with.

It’s not a case of let everything roam ferel and life is hunky dory. BUT my point is, there are plenty of ferel native herds that do on the whole have a pretty reasonable QoL.
You stated this was a bigger issue than the leisure industry. I disagree. I think there are issues in both, just different issues. And I think trying to deflect the leisure issue isn’t helpful.
 
Top