Improving leisure horse welfare

[Wishfilly]

are people going to want to give details as to where they keep their horses and how?
there are too many unpassported from ferals, older horses let alone the traveller and similar ones.

Legally, I believe the only ones that are allowed to be unpassported/unmicrochipped now are ferals living in certain designated places- even the ones on Bodmin are supposed to be microchipped now! Obviously that's not the case, which throws up another issue with legislating around those things.

As to whether people want to, this brings up the issue of self selection.

But we've certainly got a larger dataset than we've ever had!

 

[paddy555]

Legally, I believe the only ones that are allowed to be unpassported/unmicrochipped now are ferals living in certain designated places- even the ones on Bodmin are supposed to be microchipped now! Obviously that's not the case, which throws up another issue with legislating around those things.

As to whether people want to, this brings up the issue of self selection.

But we've certainly got a larger dataset than we've ever had!

leaving aside ferals which are a small number I would imagine there are a fair number without passports. Why would people want this sort of intrusion into their private hobby?

 

[stangs]

The full set of criteria for posting on this forum. I think.

• Must have qualifications to have an opinion. It is recommended that your CV be in your signature, with a link to your life story and videos of you riding.
• Any show of genuine sympathy is patronising.
• Attempts at problem-solving with your theory or brainstorming are being sure of yourself
• Not writing a thesis in every post you make is oversimplifying
• One must always write “I think” after every sentence, as demonstrated, or else it's a clear sign that you think your word is law and not just your opinion

 

[ycbm]

One must always write “I think” after every sentence, as demonstrated, or else it's a clear sign that you think your word is law and not just your opinion

This one is a rule which any sensible user of a forum of strangers learns very early. It took me far too long!
.

 

[Arzada]

are people going to want to give details as to where they keep their horses and how?

No. We're not even buying wormers in store because this required name and address. Are these details still required to buy wormers over the counter?

 

[ycbm]

Must have qualifications to have an opinion. It is recommended that your CV be in your signature, with a link to your life story and videos of you riding.

No, you can voice what opinions you want, but if you are going to express an opinion about giving horses a choice whether to compete or not, it does give more strength to your opinion if you have actually demonstrably competed to any sort of level yourself, surely?
.

 

[Wishfilly]

leaving aside ferals which are a small number I would imagine there are a fair number without passports. Why would people want this sort of intrusion into their private hobby?

Legally, there shouldn't be.

I'm not saying they would, but I'm not the one who's advocating for mass surveys.

 

[Wishfilly]

The full set of criteria for posting on this forum. I think.

• Must have qualifications to have an opinion. It is recommended that your CV be in your signature, with a link to your life story and videos of you riding.
• Any show of genuine sympathy is patronising.
• Attempts at problem-solving with your theory or brainstorming are being sure of yourself
• Not writing a thesis in every post you make is oversimplifying
• One must always write “I think” after every sentence, as demonstrated, or else it's a clear sign that you think your word is law and not just your opinion

I've tried to respond to this post a few times, but I found your post upsetting, but also, honestly, a little bit stupid, sorry.

It really is not good to be so wedded to a system that you make assumptions about anything based on a tiny bit of throwaway information.

Anyway, am going to step away from the thread now. But if your intent isn't to cause upset, then do perhaps think about how you are posting...

 

[paddy555]

No. We're not even buying wormers in store because this required name and address. Are these details still required to buy wormers over the counter?

I bought some from Mole online and got a phone call and the inquisition as to what I was buying and how I was going to use them.

Leaving the house soon so have to be quick, but in response to Wishfilly/ycbm and MP in part:

1. A partnership goes two ways. Both the rider and horse should get a say in what’s going on - the rider shouldn’t micromanage everything, but nor should the horse always ignore the rider’s requests. When this occurs, this is often the horse saying ‘no’, but…
2. …‘no’s are not all equal. There are ‘no’s that are due to pain and therefore (comparatively) easily remedied; there are ‘no’s due to a lack of training/confidence that, again, can be remedied; there are firm ‘no’s from the horse that should always be respected (e.g. some feral horses can never be ridden); there are some ‘no’s that have to be ignored for the sake of the horse's short and long term welfare (e.g. no feed before ulcer scoping; getting a horse out of a dangerous situation).
3. I agree that a world where all horses are given the option to consent is unlikely at best - this is why I believe in a sort of ethics bank. I.e. the more you do to provide a horse with an enriched, healthy, pain-free existence where they can perform natural behaviours, the more you can “get away” with in terms of their work.
4. (On top of management, competition would also become substantially more ethical if rules to improve horse welfare were stricter - you only have to look at some of the highest scoring dressage riders as evidence - and more horse friendly. Why is it still not an option to go bitless or nosebandless in affiliated competition? Why do horses have to be ridden in double bridles above a certain level?)
5. As for it being impossible to let a horse say no to competing one day. If some racehorse owners choose pull their horses out of races due to the horse looking a little off or the ground conditions being wrong, could they not then do the same if the horse just wasn't up for it mentally?
6. The decision to have all decisions made for them is also a potential choice of the horse
7. …but, for example, if you had a very high anxiety horse, the aim should be reducing their stress when having to make choices themselves. Otherwise, you’re not optimising their mental wellbeing.
8. (4)/(5) are also due to poor management of the 2-3 year old. This links back to having an enriched lifestyle. Lucy Rees’ The Horse’s Mind goes into this in more depth, but, to summarise, domestic youngsters are rarely given the chance to learn to explore or hone their curiosity. The result is horses like Wishfilly’s.
9. Being a leader isn’t inherently unethical.
10. I knew a mare who would go trotting into the arena the minute you opened the gate because she enjoyed her groundwork so much (she was retired from ridden work). This was a horse who was permitted to say ‘no’ to work - as a result, it was a treat not a chore. Meeting that mare was one of the best experiences of my life. I kid you not, I cried watching her.
11. Following on from (10), if you have never met a horse who enjoys their work, I genuinely feel bad for you and hope that you will find a horse like that one day.

I'm not sure how I explain all this to the horse especially 1 and 6. Seems a bit like saying we will take turns. I'll be the leader today and you can be tomorrow.
I don't think this would help with lower ranking horses. When turned out they have their leader and when ridden I feel they are happier with a confident leader.

point 6 what does it actually mean?

 

[paddy555]

Legally, there shouldn't be.

and in the real world?

 

[Tiddlypom]

No. We're not even buying wormers in store because this required name and address. Are these details still required to buy wormers over the counter?

How do you buy them, them? Direct from the vet, perhaps? Whether buying on line or in store, I have to give my full details inc name and ages of the horses to get wormers.

 

[palo1]

H
Have a look at what this look at what this and other rescue groups are dealing with on a regular basis.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/welshrehomingproject/?ref=share
In the last few days they've taken in a few day old foal ,found without its mother and an underweight 2yo with foal at foot and these are not the only group dealing with this sort of situation.

This may result in me being 'cancelled' and I am very aware of the differences and nuance around different 'feral' herds of ponies BUT 'rescuing' these ponies is not always a great outcome. We graze a hill with hill ponies - they are a bit of a mix tbh mostly Welsh but with injections over the years of other stuff because that makes them more marketable - or it used to; we haven't used a stallion with that herd for years. (the hill pony herd was my late FIL's and he gave up using a stallion about 5 or 6 years ago. He used to sell ponies for riding and the meat market). One of our older girls is 29 this year - she was started and ridden occasionally for a few years but mostly her life has been as a hill pony. She has bred a few foals and has lived naturally for all of her life. She has been brought onto the farm for several winters now but not fed - just given better grazing. I deosected her the other day though she didn't particularly appreciate it...

My view is that our native stock needs this kind of feral/hill pony regardless of their breeding as that is the root of our native equine resilience. The hill ponies that do well are an extraordinary resource for the UK in terms of breeding which has resulted in soundness and resilience, knowledge, natural grazing etc. The mistake I think we make is to see them in the same way as we see domestic horses. I understand why people hate to see orphans or starving ponies but those things happen with every other species of wild animal. The orphan foal in the fb post; what is his/her future? I get how heart wrenching it is to see these ponies struggling and honestly, some of the herds that are doing very badly should be culled imo. We see herds that are as fat as butter in the summer with blooming marvellous feet, stamina and joie de vivre. The ones that cannot survive don't and whilst that is difficult on an individual level it means that the herd, it's genetic inheritance and the chance for us to utilise that for the better in the future of horse breeding remains.

I don't think there is a terrible welfare issue with feral ponies unless they really are in the wrong place but that is still a tiny number in comparison to the many, many poorly kept leisure horses with horrible tack, ignorant owners, too much feed and rugging and not enough suitable work and handling. IF people were serious about the welfare of feral ponies they would absolutely support a policy of culling when necessary. We are a long way from that. The opposite end of the spectrum is also not helpful: having seen the horrible consequences of people releasing unwanted stock onto commons and hills I believe that some people probably genuinely think that 'freedom' to roam the 'wild' is an easy life for a pony. I don't think people on the whole understand the difference between a feral pony in a suitable habitat and bin-end fly grazing/unsuitable release. Those poor sods are not 'feral' - they have just been discarded and there are welfare issues for them.

 

[honetpot]

are people going to want to give details as to where they keep their horses and how?
there are too many unpassported from ferals, older horses let alone the traveller and similar ones.

Even with passports horses disappear, the passport gets separated from the pony, often just oversight, and the pony is in the field, even sees a vet, travels and perhaps ends up somewhere else. If it's collected by a fallen stock company it is just waste. Passports seem to be more about breeding and parentage, and conforming to the EU directive, rather than providing a benefit to animal welfare. I used to get a survey about how many sheep or goats I kept, but you can own a horse put it anywhere and no one needs to know, unless your landlord says no pets.

When I was thinking about a survey I was thinking more about something like Garden Bird Watch, where in one week you take a snapshot, perhaps starting how many animals you have, where are they housed, what area of the country you are in, and what is their main use. You could have opt out sections of disease, or behaviour problems. It is anonymous, and yes not everyone would do it, but not every equine has a passport. If it is done on an app it could be accessible to anyone who has a modern phone.

 

[paddy555]

The orphan foal in the fb post; what is his/her future?


The opposite end of the spectrum is also not helpful: having seen the horrible consequences of people releasing unwanted stock onto commons and hills I believe that some people probably genuinely think that 'freedom' to roam the 'wild' is an easy life for a pony. I don't think people on the whole understand the difference between a feral pony in a suitable habitat and bin-end fly grazing/unsuitable release. Those poor sods are not 'feral' - they have just been discarded and there are welfare issues for them.

the orphan foal concerns me. It says the stallions were attacking it. Really?? I have ridden amongst these ferals for 50 years. This is not behaviour that I am familiar with but I suppose it sounds good,

What concerns me far more that the foal is the mother. A mare doesn't just disappear. She gets killed by a car and someone therefore knows. She dies and someone finds her body or she gets scared off by people,, hides and then can't find the foal. The foal could have strayed a long way from the mare. I have had foals follow my horse for a good distance. Well out of sight of the mother. I have had to take them back as once they have lost their mum they are lost and just followed my horse.

re your 2nd para I have one of those. Someone bought a foal (hill pony) which would have been around 5 months at the pony auctions. No doubt it was sweet and cute. When he got to 3 ungelded and impossible to handle I presume they didn't know what to do with him. So they obviously had the bright idea of turn him loose on the common.

The moorland stallions didn't think that it was such a great idea to have an intruder in their midst and beat the sh1t out of him. He appeared,, worse for wear and seriously on 3 legs and someone took brought him to us.
I took the chance that he had radial paralysis and put him on his own. After around 3 months he recovered .

 

[palo1]

the orphan foal concerns me. It says the stallions were attacking it. Really?? I have ridden amongst these ferals for 50 years. This is not behaviour that I am familiar with but I suppose it sounds good,

What concerns me far more that the foal is the mother. A mare doesn't just disappear. She gets killed by a car and someone therefore knows. She dies and someone finds her body or she gets scared off by people,, hides and then can't find the foal. The foal could have strayed a long way from the mare. I have had foals follow my horse for a good distance. Well out of sight of the mother. I have had to take them back as once they have lost their mum they are lost and just followed my horse.

re your 2nd para I have one of those. Someone bought a foal (hill pony) which would have been around 5 months at the pony auctions. No doubt it was sweet and cute. When he got to 3 ungelded and impossible to handle I presume they didn't know what to do with him. So they obviously had the bright idea of turn him loose on the common.

The moorland stallions didn't think that it was such a great idea to have an intruder in their midst and beat the sh1t out of him. He appeared,, worse for wear and seriously on 3 legs and someone took brought him to us.
I took the chance that he had radial paralysis and put him on his one. After around 3 months he recovered .

Yes, the welfare implications of loosing a horse onto a common or hill where there is an existing herd are not great. But I have seen and heard people telling me that if they get 'desperate' they will take their horse and let him 'run free' on the mountains. Those horses and ponies might survive a year but probably not as they have no skill or knowledge in that kind of life. I agree too about the stallions and foals; I have never seen anything like that but I have seen mares run by cyclists or loose dogs - usually they do get back to their foal who might be lying up in the bracken but I guess it depends. In any case I think there are far more serious welfare issues for UK horses than are affecting most established feral herds.

 

[paddy555]

In any case I think there are far more serious welfare issues for UK horses than are affecting most established feral herds.

I look at the stabling on the Writtle link on the previous page and to me that is appalling although no doubt people will say that is normal.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I look at the stabling on the Writtle link on the previous page and to me that is appalling although no doubt people will say that is normal.

I agree.



Especially as upthread the same college's equine management practices were being lauded ?. Something doesn't add up. The student diy liveries are in small or pony sized stables with restricted or no turnout.

As an example, the forward thinking equine colleges, such as Writtle, have completely redesigned their management systems so that horses can choose indoor/outdoor space and live in stable herds.

I haven't visited the college in person. I can add poor foot balance (as pointed out by my vet) to the list of ills my horse came off working livery at WUC with. Her mouth was a nightmare - her jaw was locked together by untreated overgrowth.

 

[palo1]

I look at the stabling on the Writtle link on the previous page and to me that is appalling although no doubt people will say that is normal.

That wouldn't work for me or my idea of excellent welfare management tbh. Clearly people are happy with that setup although I believe that most folk would not actively want to keep their horse in that way. It sort of indicates the issues though doesn't it? This kind of management is a universe away from 'natural' or what horses probably need to be healthy and happy but at the same time many people are uncomfortable with the 'turn 'em loose' system where there is little intervention. The middle ground where horses have herd based turnout on decent ground (ie not knee deep in mud or spring grass), dental, saddlery and veterinary intervention is the most expensive and by far the most difficult to achieve in reality. We don't have enough land in the UK or probably people with enough money and committment to ensure that leisure horses get that best practice. It would bankrupt most equestrian businesses and make access to equestrianism virtually impossible for anyone not owning and controlling their own land. It is another consequence of an increasingly urban society on a small island. Personally, the above system as described makes me want to cry; I would not see any appeal whatsoever in keeping a horse under that system but I guess if you are desperate and want to school/compete maybe you could cope with it (even if the horses were slowly going nuts...)

 

[paddy555]

I agree.

View attachment 91369

Especially as upthread the same college's equine management practices were being lauded ?. Something doesn't add up. The student diy liveries are in small or pony sized stables with restricted or no turnout.


I haven't visited the college in person. I can add poor foot balance (as pointed out by my vet) to the list of ills my horse came off working livery at WUC with. Her mouth was a nightmare - her jaw was locked together by untreated overgrowth.

The point on this that worries me is that the people this is addressed to are students. They are the next generation who are most likely to have their own horses in livery. If they go to college and this is what is provided for their horses then why should their aspirations change. We learnt at college this was the way of horse keeping, must be right.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

so I like the idea of them having a pole yard attached to their boxes that they can have choice to use as they want, I’ve seen set ups where they have this and they can share or groom/interact over the poles. But not as a substitute for group turnout.

 

[Wishfilly]

The point on this that worries me is that the people this is addressed to are students. They are the next generation who are most likely to have their own horses in livery. If they go to college and this is what is provided for their horses then why should their aspirations change. We learnt at college this was the way of horse keeping, must be right.

And clearly they are persuading some people that they are at the forefront of welfare.

 

[Wishfilly]

and in the real world?

In the real world I imagine there are still a lot of horses that are unpassported, and there are probably still people (for example) remicrochipping TBs and getting them ID passports and selling them as "sports horse types". But anyway