teapot
Well-Known Member
https://www.facebook.com/writtleequine/
That’s Writtle’s yard, actively posting and looking for horses. It would be a very odd set up of offering practical degree courses without horses around…
Improving leisure horse welfare
- Thread starter stangs
- Start date
https://www.facebook.com/writtleequine/
That’s Writtle’s yard, actively posting and looking for horses. It would be a very odd set up of offering practical degree courses without horses around…
stangs
Well-Known Member
Equestrianism as a sport does face more severe ethical issues than leisure riding, you're right. Theoretically, the aim would be to train a horse in such a way that they enjoy being given ridden tasks (i.e. the moves of a dressage test); however, that would also involve some schooling at home where the rider is a passenger and the horse has free rein (pun heavily intended), and a professional rider having to walk away on competition day if the horse was unsettled by recent storms and had no interest in being ridden. As regards XC, it would be a combination of managing the young horse, then training the older horse in such a way that you encourage curiosity in novel objects rather than flat-out avoidance. The idea would be a partnership wherein, to anthropomorphise dreadfully, the rider says "hey, maybe it's not that bad a jump at all", to which the horse can reply "having had more time to process, you're right" or "usually I'd agree, but this looks seriously dodgy". If the later response is chosen, the rider would have to retire. So somewhat similar to what goes on currently in SJ/XC, but with significantly less escalation of pressure.
Having said that, certain sports are more horse-friendly/ethical than others. Significantly more work would have to be done to make vaulting ethical than TREC, for example.
As regards backing, part of the issue is that most backing techniques aren't particularly sympathetic to the horse, though things are getting better. But I do think it's possible to have backing as a positive experience, either through R+ (though, at this point, I think R+ becomes a touch more dubious ethically), or through promoting intrinsic motivation in carrying weight, as a sort of movement puzzle, wherein the weight is slowly built up until the rider can replace it.
That said, especially for working animals, does the horse have to enjoy being backed? Or is the horse saying "I don't mind this" enough for it to be ethical given the future positive effects of being ridden?
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Thanks, I had totally failed to find reference to that on their website, but that might well be my less than effective sleuthing!
'Regular treatments by our team of veterinary physiotherapists'
'Dentist visits'
Pfft. As I said above, unless there has been a complete overhaul of staff and culture since 2016, don't send your horse there.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
I think there's a question of where leisure riding overlaps with sport- many leisure riders will potter around low level dressage, or around a fun ride, or a hunter trial, or clear round showjumping. I take what you are saying, but realistically, I don't think those outcomes would be acceptable to the majority of riders and I also think *could* in *some horses* lead to situations and behaviours that are dangerous for the rider (particularly around jumping). I think most of us expect our leisure horses to be capable of a low level dressage test, jumping a small course, as well as hacking out safely- in a way, more so than competition riders, who are actually more likely to accept a horse that participated in one activity and one activity only!
I do completely see what you are saying, and I'm not saying you are wrong to say it, but it would take a massive change in rider philosophy! Almost more so than in accepting horses as non-ridden pets, in a way!
I'm not saying backing can't be a positive experience, or is always negative, but in my experience, I think there is often a point with young horses, where at some point they need to be "told" or "persuaded" to do an activity. I used to work for a lady who backed her own horses, not using R+ but using what I believe to be ethical, low pressure techniques, and I can actually remember one young horse (who was very intrinsically motivated by being around humans) who probably did take to being backed with no objection or question at all. But I would say all of the others (similar breeding, brought up in the same way, backed in the same system) had moments when they needed to be persuaded to do x,y,z activity.
Are there "future positive effects" of being ridden for horses (beyond being more likely to have a good home etc etc)?
I'm not trying to get at you at all, and I think it's an interesting conversation to have. I've thought often that I'd like to have a small, non-ridden pony and I'd like to trick train it using R+ type methods- I suspect you think this is perfectly ethical, and I'm not saying it's not! But we would never do this with a giraffe (for example) and do we need to ask the question why that is?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I'm shaking my head over the idea that competition at any level is in any way compatible with giving horses a choice as to whether they are ridden or not on any particular day.
I am an open minded person, but I have also competed to an above average level and I believe that it simply isn't achievable.
I also believe that if given the choice most horses will choose never to leave their yards, and if you tell more novice/less motivated riders that horses should be allowed a choice, their horses would choose never to leave the yard.
And lastly, having taken on quite a few horses that could/would not "perform/behave/word of choice" for other riders, I do believe that many horses want a leader, that having a leader makes them feel secure, and that many will breath a deep sigh of relief when they realise that they have finally ended up in the care of a leader.
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I am an open minded person, but I have also competed to an above average level and I believe that it simply isn't achievable.
I also believe that if given the choice most horses will choose never to leave their yards, and if you tell more novice/less motivated riders that horses should be allowed a choice, their horses would choose never to leave the yard.
And lastly, having taken on quite a few horses that could/would not "perform/behave/word of choice" for other riders, I do believe that many horses want a leader, that having a leader makes them feel secure, and that many will breath a deep sigh of relief when they realise that they have finally ended up in the care of a leader.
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oldie48
Well-Known Member
I started this post but got called away and there's been several more posts since so not sure how relevant now but here goes:
I'm not sure that it's completely fair to compare horses with zoo animals, horses have been domesticated for 6K years and most have been selectively bred to suit man's needs. That's clearly another point for discussion but I do wonder how many would exist in the wild if they have not been domesticated. FWIW I was discussing this thread on my hack this morning and my companion, who had a short break on Exmoor a few weeks ago said she'd seen a group of ponies that had clearly come through the winter looking "rather too well" because of the mild winter weather. With climate change, will laminitis become common in semi feral ponies? Lets be honest, generally these ponies can be pretty hungry in harsh weather and if they were kept down the road at a livery yard, I'm sure they'd be a few complaints! The natural world can be pretty harsh.
Over the years, I've had 18 horses and ponies in my care ranging from full natives through to TBs WBs ISH etc, some have been full on competitive horses in very hard work, others sensible hacks/low level allrounders, some have just been companions and bar one, I think they have all been happy, healthy equines. I'm fortunate to have plenty of grazing that has been used for horses for over 60 years and I don't fertilise. We are on clay but I have enough land that should I wish to keep horses out 24/7, I could but most have been more than happy, ie voted with their hooves, to come in for the night in the winter and spend the hottest part of the summer snoozing or snacking in their stable away from the flies and the sun. They have liked routine, a settled herd and quiet but clear handling. Yes, I have taken their opinion into account, I've known who likes to be first in, who is happy to stay out on their own, who gets upset if it's windy and I've certainly had a few that given too much turnout would have been much too fat! The only one I really worried about was a sect C companion, known on here as Fatty. His management was a bit of a nightmare and the only way I found of keeping weight off him was turnout in a muzzle, time in the stable with very well soaked hay + bucket of straw chop. We were both unhappy, given a choice he would have stayed out in the paddock eating himself to death, which is what he did when he returned to his owner. He was a very well bred pony, sharp as a knife, never suitable for a child, totally spoiled by novice owners and he'd been "rescued" by a well meaning person, who then went abroad to live so he got "dumped" with a friend. I believe the majority of owners really care for their horses and want the best for them but I'm not sure legislation is the way to go as horses have different needs and a one size fits all approach, just won't work. We don't live in an ideal world but horses, like people are pretty adaptable or they would have ceased to exist a long time ago.
I'm not sure that it's completely fair to compare horses with zoo animals, horses have been domesticated for 6K years and most have been selectively bred to suit man's needs. That's clearly another point for discussion but I do wonder how many would exist in the wild if they have not been domesticated. FWIW I was discussing this thread on my hack this morning and my companion, who had a short break on Exmoor a few weeks ago said she'd seen a group of ponies that had clearly come through the winter looking "rather too well" because of the mild winter weather. With climate change, will laminitis become common in semi feral ponies? Lets be honest, generally these ponies can be pretty hungry in harsh weather and if they were kept down the road at a livery yard, I'm sure they'd be a few complaints! The natural world can be pretty harsh.
Over the years, I've had 18 horses and ponies in my care ranging from full natives through to TBs WBs ISH etc, some have been full on competitive horses in very hard work, others sensible hacks/low level allrounders, some have just been companions and bar one, I think they have all been happy, healthy equines. I'm fortunate to have plenty of grazing that has been used for horses for over 60 years and I don't fertilise. We are on clay but I have enough land that should I wish to keep horses out 24/7, I could but most have been more than happy, ie voted with their hooves, to come in for the night in the winter and spend the hottest part of the summer snoozing or snacking in their stable away from the flies and the sun. They have liked routine, a settled herd and quiet but clear handling. Yes, I have taken their opinion into account, I've known who likes to be first in, who is happy to stay out on their own, who gets upset if it's windy and I've certainly had a few that given too much turnout would have been much too fat! The only one I really worried about was a sect C companion, known on here as Fatty. His management was a bit of a nightmare and the only way I found of keeping weight off him was turnout in a muzzle, time in the stable with very well soaked hay + bucket of straw chop. We were both unhappy, given a choice he would have stayed out in the paddock eating himself to death, which is what he did when he returned to his owner. He was a very well bred pony, sharp as a knife, never suitable for a child, totally spoiled by novice owners and he'd been "rescued" by a well meaning person, who then went abroad to live so he got "dumped" with a friend. I believe the majority of owners really care for their horses and want the best for them but I'm not sure legislation is the way to go as horses have different needs and a one size fits all approach, just won't work. We don't live in an ideal world but horses, like people are pretty adaptable or they would have ceased to exist a long time ago.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
To add to this, I think some horses would express that choice in quite dangerous ways. I know someone is going to come along and say we should listen to subtle signals etc (which we should, anyway, because they can be pain indicators etc), but some horses have a flair for the dramatic or panic about a jump or obstacle at the last second.
I genuinely think you'd run the risk of teaching horses to have a "dirty stop" or to run out, or to spook in dangerous ways (because those are clear signals that riders understand). It's also, a bit, about rider confidence- most riders, especially nervous riders like me, want a level of input into e.g. the speed that we approach the jump at!
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I have to say that it would be incredibly dangerous to approach a fence like the one in my avatar thinking that the horse had any input into the decision as to whether it was going to be jumped or not.
ETA and of course only the stupidest rider would present a horse which didn't enjoy the job at a fence like that!
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milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
echo this, my most recent ride is like this - take away his decision making options and he gets quiet fluttery nostrils and soft ears, his body relaxes and he feels at ease. allow him to make choices and his anxiety goes through the roof. I get the sense that he's sort of lacked any "leadership" (for want of a better word) from handlers in the past , and he's not a naturally brave horse so doesn't deal with that well.
in terms of leisure horse welfare... sometimes riders/handlers have to deal with what's happened previously in a horse's life to make it the least worst, going forward, which can be very different to starting with a blank slate.
Morgan123
Well-Known Member
Curious - if you think horses would prefer not to leave the yard (let alone compete) how do you reconcile this with competing and riding yourselves - i.e. inherently making your horses do something that you think they'd rather not do?
That's not a criticism btw it's a genuine Q.
Wishfilly, just to add I definitely think that teaching tricks to a pony using +ve reinforcement CAN be unethical! Easier to be ethical using +ve re than other methods, but not black and white for sure.
Great discussion all, thanks for sharing your views
That's not a criticism btw it's a genuine Q.
Wishfilly, just to add I definitely think that teaching tricks to a pony using +ve reinforcement CAN be unethical! Easier to be ethical using +ve re than other methods, but not black and white for sure.
Great discussion all, thanks for sharing your views
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honetpot
Well-Known Member
I work in health care, and our treatment and advice has always been governed by research based knowledge, that has been pooled peer reviewed, examined and then practice is eventually changed. Some impacts of covid on research are if something has no apparent negative outcome, and appears to have a positive effect, even if just basic data, perhaps it is best to change practice, rather than wait for gold standard evidence.
There has been so much research carried out on farm large livestock, I have read some studies on horse housing but they are relatively small compared to livestock numbers isn't it best to look at outcomes from data already available even if it is flawed.
It may be the problem is the humans, just basic lack of education and passed on horsemanship, that people are just unaware the animal is stressed and unaware how to read the very small visual cues, that people who have handled horse since youth know. I can read a horse from across a field, but am unable to read a cow, and direct it in the barn very well.
Could it be that the 'problems' are sometimes just normal within range horse behaviour, depending on individual reactions, and response to stress, and to inexperienced human eyes that is the problem?
What ever is happening it appears to be getting worse, but even that is subjective, because the reactions are interpreted and there is no baseline.
Maybe large scale well put together surveys, gathering thousands of owners information would be a quicker way to gather information to create improvements. The ZOE app spotted trends in covid diagnosis long before it was confirmed in a more conventional way.
Pressures on land and time mean we are going to have to change, so if we are going to house horsec for longer in smaller areas we need to get a wiggle on.
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moosea
Well-Known Member
I think one of the biggest problems with leisure Horses welfare would be teaching most owners what low, medium and hard work are and how to feed appropriatly. The amount of obese horses is shocking.
I knew someone who wo9uld do 1/2 hour walk hack and then feed the same amount I would have fed a hunter.
I knew someone who wo9uld do 1/2 hour walk hack and then feed the same amount I would have fed a hunter.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
I'd say my pony is similar- he likes input from me. When I relax, out hacking, and I'm not actively riding him forward, is usually when he does his biggest spooks. I'd say he actively doesn't want to be the one making all the decisions, and as you say, isn't naturally brave. We're working on this, but he's never going to be a horse that responds to all new stimuli with curiosity (I think there are people that believe this could be trained, but I think it's unethical to change his character!).
What do you think appears to be getting worse? Horse welfare?
I don't believe that the ZOE app is completely comparable to a survey on animal welfare- I think the ZOE app was an amazing achievement, to be clear.
I think the bar for making changes in one's own personal horse management is pretty low, and I agree that flawed, or small scale research can be relevant for this.
However, at earlier stages in the thread, we were talking about changes in legislation. When you're considering legislation that has potential impact of making thousands of equines homeless (for want of a better word) then I think the bar is very high!
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
This is my question for those talking about choice.
I justify it because a) I think overall I give my pony a good standard of care, and b) because in the event of something happening to me, he would end up being sold, and I want him to be a "useful citizen" who could find a good home in that circumstance.
FWIW, he actually is very happy to load and travel and on the few occasions I've taken him out, I think the experience was positive for him. However, he would happily never leave the yard ridden alone if he had the choice- the more he does it, in general, the better he gets! If he really hated it, I might do things differently, I'm talking about being mildly tense/nervous. He is quite a nervous/neophobic pony, I think if he were given the choice, his world would end up very small, and I am not sure that would be positive for him.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
The older I get the more difficult I find it to do so. I know from other things she has written that MP teeters on the brink of this crevasse as well.
ETA I think at some point in the far future it will be deemed unethical to ride a real horse. In respect of learning to ride, learning to jump, and riding hired horses which are ridden by 20 different people in a week, this won't come soon enough for me.
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Morgan123
Well-Known Member
Aw. Same. That's why I wondered! It's so tricky isn't it (and I often wish I'd never started learning/thinking more, as it was much simpler before I did so!).
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I agree completely, and I have just moved a "free range" horse into the dreaded American barn environment. If I think he is unhappy, he will be retired and be the last horse I ever own.
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honetpot
Well-Known Member
And that is the problem is it what worse and why, or is what we as problem in our eyes not a problem at all. ZOE collected at the start very basic data, and used that data to ask more questions as trends were seen.
We have so little data about the UK horse population, many people that have equines never join a society, or compete and they are tucked away in places where unless there is a local problem they are never seen. I know by experience that what you see every day you can see as common, but may not be true, it's only by pooling information that you get a clear picture.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I'm still not clear on what you think the problem is? Equine welfare, or lack of data?
I'd argue, with recent passporting legislation, we probably have the most accurate data we have ever had about how many equines there are in the UK, and who owns them (yes, I'm well aware this is extremely imperfect). If the will is there, it would be possible to use this to find out where those equines are kept, and how.
teapot
Well-Known Member
Livery info here: https://writtle.ac.uk/pdfs/Livery/DIY-Livery-Guide.pdf
There’s a McTimoney practitioner on the staff and someone training to be a physio so it may well have improved a bit…
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Riding schools can be run well though, with happy horses and cheerful conscientious staff.
I've been back today to my local one for a private lesson. The horse I had today is a well managed sweetitch sufferer in his mid twenties. He was there before the current head girl started there 19 years ago! He's a happy chappie. He can't be turned out in summer as he jumps the fence to come back in, so he and his bestie get turned out overnight in the indoor school. Every horse is managed as an individual.
The staff regularly ride the school horses themselves to make sure that their schooling is kept up to scratch. If a horse has a rough lesson, or if a client falls off, a member of staff will ride them until they are settled again. Clients who are too hard on the horses will not be rebooked.
There are regular hacks out to the nearby forest.
Chalk and cheese compared to the supposedly fancy pants equestrian college that my mare came out of.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like there's either no grass turnout (just in all weather pens) or grass turnout limited by the weather, according to that?
stangs
Well-Known Member
Leaving the house soon so have to be quick, but in response to Wishfilly/ycbm and MP in part:
- A partnership goes two ways. Both the rider and horse should get a say in what’s going on - the rider shouldn’t micromanage everything, but nor should the horse always ignore the rider’s requests. When this occurs, this is often the horse saying ‘no’, but…
- …‘no’s are not all equal. There are ‘no’s that are due to pain and therefore (comparatively) easily remedied; there are ‘no’s due to a lack of training/confidence that, again, can be remedied; there are firm ‘no’s from the horse that should always be respected (e.g. some feral horses can never be ridden); there are some ‘no’s that have to be ignored for the sake of the horse's short and long term welfare (e.g. no feed before ulcer scoping; getting a horse out of a dangerous situation).
- I agree that a world where all horses are given the option to consent is unlikely at best - this is why I believe in a sort of ethics bank. I.e. the more you do to provide a horse with an enriched, healthy, pain-free existence where they can perform natural behaviours, the more you can “get away” with in terms of their work.
- (On top of management, competition would also become substantially more ethical if rules to improve horse welfare were stricter - you only have to look at some of the highest scoring dressage riders as evidence - and more horse friendly. Why is it still not an option to go bitless or nosebandless in affiliated competition? Why do horses have to be ridden in double bridles above a certain level?)
- As for it being impossible to let a horse say no to competing one day. If some racehorse owners choose pull their horses out of races due to the horse looking a little off or the ground conditions being wrong, could they not then do the same if the horse just wasn't up for it mentally?
- The decision to have all decisions made for them is also a potential choice of the horse
- …but, for example, if you had a very high anxiety horse, the aim should be reducing their stress when having to make choices themselves. Otherwise, you’re not optimising their mental wellbeing.
- (4)/(5) are also due to poor management of the 2-3 year old. This links back to having an enriched lifestyle. Lucy Rees’ The Horse’s Mind goes into this in more depth, but, to summarise, domestic youngsters are rarely given the chance to learn to explore or hone their curiosity. The result is horses like Wishfilly’s.
- Being a leader isn’t inherently unethical.
- I knew a mare who would go trotting into the arena the minute you opened the gate because she enjoyed her groundwork so much (she was retired from ridden work). This was a horse who was permitted to say ‘no’ to work - as a result, it was a treat not a chore. Meeting that mare was one of the best experiences of my life. I kid you not, I cried watching her.
- Following on from (10), if you have never met a horse who enjoys their work, I genuinely feel bad for you and hope that you will find a horse like that one day.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Patronising, much ?
How many massive fixed timber 1m 10 fences or seven foot hedges have you jumped, may I ask?
ETA does my avatar or this horse look like they aren't enjoying themselves? You cannot make horse do this if they don't want to.,
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Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Wow, I'd love to be so sure that I could explain someone's horse's behaviour based solely on a throwaway line on a forum post.
I think there is some massive oversimplifying happening on this thread- I would love to be so sure about everything as other people are.
We're talking about evolving schools of research here, and saying X always equals Y is a gross oversimplification.
FWIW, I believe an AWFUL lot of what people consider "enjoying their work" is actually just heightened anxiety/arousal levels. Do I know horses that appear to enjoy ridden work, or elements of that work- of course? And if I genuinely thought my horse didn't enjoy being ridden on some level, I wouldn't ride him. But I'm not sure- I don't think you can ever be sure. And over the years I have met a huge number of people who will confidently assert their horse enjoys their work, when in fact, I think there are lots of signs to the opposite- and again, I think most horses had to go through an experience that was at least mildly aversive to get there.
I would love to be as sure as some people on the thread that my way is the only right way!
I think there is some massive oversimplifying happening on this thread- I would love to be so sure about everything as other people are.
We're talking about evolving schools of research here, and saying X always equals Y is a gross oversimplification.
FWIW, I believe an AWFUL lot of what people consider "enjoying their work" is actually just heightened anxiety/arousal levels. Do I know horses that appear to enjoy ridden work, or elements of that work- of course? And if I genuinely thought my horse didn't enjoy being ridden on some level, I wouldn't ride him. But I'm not sure- I don't think you can ever be sure. And over the years I have met a huge number of people who will confidently assert their horse enjoys their work, when in fact, I think there are lots of signs to the opposite- and again, I think most horses had to go through an experience that was at least mildly aversive to get there.
I would love to be as sure as some people on the thread that my way is the only right way!
teapot
Well-Known Member
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Looks like it but that could be said for a number of livery yards ??
I'm sure, but it was being held up on the thread as some kind of gold standard of equine welfare. I'm not saying it's not as good as it can be, or that there aren't a lot of places that are worse, but it's not something I'd choose for most horses.
teapot
Well-Known Member
I’d missed those posts - I worked with someone who went there and while didn’t rave about the place, also didn’t have the experiences that @Tiddlypom has posted about.
Though what I will say is that some riding schools to a client’s eye will look/appear/feel vastly different to what actually goes on on a daily basis. That’s partly why I left the industry - before my morals were ruined for good, yet clients adore the places…
paddy555
Well-Known Member
paddy555
Well-Known Member
are people going to want to give details as to where they keep their horses and how?
there are too many unpassported from ferals, older horses let alone the traveller and similar ones.