Improving training/professionalism/the industry?

eahotson said:
Pammy Hutton and a few others look down from their eyries and complain about the poor standard of riding at grass roots level without ever questioning why.
Click to expand...

I have been thinking about this and when really when I started riding most of the people I rode with had never had a lesson, it was a bit like learning to swim, you picked it up and fell off a lot. The people that had lessons and gave lessons had usually been in the army, and really it was just a matter of being able to stay on. When the BHS was formed in 1947, we are not that far from the 1930's when horses were more frequently used as a work animal and transport, and if you had money you learned stuff from your groom, or someone just showed you how to do it. The amount of information was smaller and perhaps there was more consistency in the methods taught, you just did what you were shown, I doubt there was any thought about if the horse was being ridden/driven well.
Just for fun, my first saddle looked like this, if you were really unlucky you got a 'frying pan' saddle which must have been from the 1900's
I think when the horse became mainly a leisure animal, and the main use was sport, success in riding became to seen being measured in competition success, there was a huge change. Everyone then in the 70's wanted to be like the SJ's they see on TV, and it was the start of using promoted equipment and for dressage the start of it being promoted more widely in the UK.
While success with horses is often seen as competition success, and as everyone wants to have the latest thing to aid that success, if they think it will get results they will buy it, a few will understand its not like trying a new set of tyres on your car, but if it's endorsed by someone famous, whose horse, riding skills are far better than theirs, it must be the right thing to do.
So now we have a huge amount of information available on Youtube, from advertising and the internet, from a variety of sources, often from people who are making their living directly or indirectly, from selling products, and methods, but no quality control over them. The people they are selling these products to are being sold a dream which for most is not attainable, and can not evaluate if harm is being caused in their use. Is that the 'experts' fault?
 
honetpot said:
I have been thinking about this and when really when I started riding most of the people I rode with had never had a lesson, it was a bit like learning to swim, you picked it up and fell off a lot. The people that had lessons and gave lessons had usually been in the army, and really it was just a matter of being able to stay on. When the BHS was formed in 1947, we are not that far from the 1930's when horses were more frequently used as a work animal and transport, and if you had money you learned stuff from your groom, or someone just showed you how to do it. The amount of information was smaller and perhaps there was more consistency in the methods taught, you just did what you were shown, I doubt there was any thought about if the horse was being ridden/driven well.
Just for fun, my first saddle looked like this, if you were really unlucky you got a 'frying pan' saddle which must have been from the 1900's
I think when the horse became mainly a leisure animal, and the main use was sport, success in riding became to seen being measured in competition success, there was a huge change. Everyone then in the 70's wanted to be like the SJ's they see on TV, and it was the start of using promoted equipment and for dressage the start of it being promoted more widely in the UK.
While success with horses is often seen as competition success, and as everyone wants to have the latest thing to aid that success, if they think it will get results they will buy it, a few will understand its not like trying a new set of tyres on your car, but if it's endorsed by someone famous, whose horse, riding skills are far better than theirs, it must be the right thing to do.
So now we have a huge amount of information available on Youtube, from advertising and the internet, from a variety of sources, often from people who are making their living directly or indirectly, from selling products, and methods, but no quality control over them. The people they are selling these products to are being sold a dream which for most is not attainable, and can not evaluate if harm is being caused in their use. Is that the 'experts' fault?
Click to expand...
That's wonderful footage! Yes, my first instructors were ex army and they had a 'get on and do it' attitude. There was no theory taught, it was all pony club kicks to go, yank with the rein to steer. Eventually I moved on to BHS instructors but as someone said before they were all very much going through the motions to get their hours. There was very little attempt to explain the concepts of equitation. I've paid a lot of good money on worthess 'lessons'. As I said earlier, my breakthrough came thanks to one woman at Lea Valley in London. She cared enough to actually teach us.
 
honetpot said:
I have been thinking about this and when really when I started riding most of the people I rode with had never had a lesson, it was a bit like learning to swim, you picked it up and fell off a lot. The people that had lessons and gave lessons had usually been in the army, and really it was just a matter of being able to stay on. When the BHS was formed in 1947, we are not that far from the 1930's when horses were more frequently used as a work animal and transport, and if you had money you learned stuff from your groom, or someone just showed you how to do it. The amount of information was smaller and perhaps there was more consistency in the methods taught, you just did what you were shown, I doubt there was any thought about if the horse was being ridden/driven well.
Just for fun, my first saddle looked like this, if you were really unlucky you got a 'frying pan' saddle which must have been from the 1900's
I think when the horse became mainly a leisure animal, and the main use was sport, success in riding became to seen being measured in competition success, there was a huge change. Everyone then in the 70's wanted to be like the SJ's they see on TV, and it was the start of using promoted equipment and for dressage the start of it being promoted more widely in the UK.
While success with horses is often seen as competition success, and as everyone wants to have the latest thing to aid that success, if they think it will get results they will buy it, a few will understand its not like trying a new set of tyres on your car, but if it's endorsed by someone famous, whose horse, riding skills are far better than theirs, it must be the right thing to do.
So now we have a huge amount of information available on Youtube, from advertising and the internet, from a variety of sources, often from people who are making their living directly or indirectly, from selling products, and methods, but no quality control over them. The people they are selling these products to are being sold a dream which for most is not attainable, and can not evaluate if harm is being caused in their use. Is that the 'experts' fault?
Click to expand...
Interesting post and video. I think that one of the key differences is that only relatively wealthy people had leisure horses in the past.They had good experienced grooms who could teach but also schooled the the horses regularly for their employers and kept them up to scratch.In the last 20 to 30 years more and more people are like me. They learned to ride at riding school where standards are very variable but have the money now to buy their own horse.Many have regular lessons but again the standard of instructors is very variable. On top of that yes, most of us have fallen for some form of quackery or other at some stage,mainly through ignorance.It can certainly be a learning curve.One thing I have made up my mind about is that I will never put up with a rude or abusive instructor ever again no matter who they are.They are bullies pure and simple.I also look with some sceptisim at so called "Natural Horsemen",mainly men and their claims of science based teaching.
 
Just to bring this up again, I think the price of lessons versus what you get for said lesson also needs addressing (at both ends of the spectrum)
 
milliepops said:
Ooh. Interesting point.
Its hard to quantify the value i think. Have you got ideas? :)
Click to expand...

Do you want my management reply or my client reply? ;)

Caveat of I appreciate in Covid times, it is going to be very hard to cover costs when groups are limited to five people. But. I think if somewhere starts charging upwards of say £65 for a group lesson, or £80 for a private, then the entire experience from booking, the quality of loo roll, and arriving in car park onwards needs to be the best it can possibly be, let alone quality of tuition, horses, facilities.

Pros coaching/teaching is another branch, and one I have little if any experience in so would be interested to hear what others think.
 
Ah yeah I see what you mean.
I'm used to paying in that ballpark but I consider i get good value. I can imagine that's not always the case.
 
I had lessons for a while with a lady who was wonderfully lovely. And sometimes we got good results.
But after a while I got fed up of being told everything was wonderful and amazing and what a great job I was doing when I knew I wasn't. I didn't feel I was being taught at that point, which was a real shame as she was a great instructor for teaching the individual in front of her and didn't mind what kind of horse or pony it was.
She wasn't cheap either. Interestingly she was very keen to put some freelance work my way until she discovered I didn't have qualifications then she couldn't get away fast enough.

I occasionally teach, only take on people through word of mouth. I did all my training but couldn't afford the exams (pre the whole structure changing anyway) so haven't got formal qualifications beyond my college diploma. I love teaching, especially more nervous riders, but with the local RS still only paying £10 an hour for a qualified instructor I'm a way off shelling out for exams.
 
It is tricky. I didn't love the BHS' old system, but when I worked at a riding school/trekking centre, I was encouraged to get my exams. Originally, I did plan to get as far as doing the instructors exams, but after passing my stage 2, the cost and distances involved were completely prohibitive, and I was falling out of love with the job, anyway. If I'd lived further up country, it might have been a more viable option to continue.

I do know some BHS qualified instructors who I consider "good", but none of them came through the college/working for a centre route- they mostly competed and took the exams later in life.

There are equestrian degrees which offer theoretical knowledge of the industry, and I think Hartpury at least are trying to add practical knowledge to these. They offer a degree in equestrian sports coaching, now, among others. But if you're going to make people go to the expense of getting a degree, then the wages afterwards need to be commensurate. Personally, I think people are more likely to pay for an instructor with a good competitive record.

I think it's really tough. I also know quite a few girls who have gone through college and then struggled to find jobs in the industry for whatever reason. People might want to train, but if the jobs aren't there to them, are we actually doing them a service by getting them to pay large fees for exams that may never lead to anything?
 
Wishfilly said:
I think it's really tough. I also know quite a few girls who have gone through college and then struggled to find jobs in the industry for whatever reason. People might want to train, but if the jobs aren't there to them, are we actually doing them a service by getting them to pay large fees for exams that may never lead to anything?
Click to expand...

Great question. Does the factory process of getting people through to their Stage 3/old AI equivalent within a year actually do them any favours? Especially with places closing left, right and centre, when they're solely trained in coaching/riding/horse care.

What about other aspects that argubly may lead to a job interview more than the abilty to lunge a horse for exercise such as business management/social media/marketing/admin?

I dont put my exams on my CV in any way, but I do mention in them a 'I've done personal/professional development in my spare time' manner.
 
eahotson said:
Interesting post and video. I think that one of the key differences is that only relatively wealthy people had leisure horses in the past.They had good experienced grooms who could teach but also schooled the the horses regularly for their employers and kept them up to scratch.In the last 20 to 30 years more and more people are like me. They learned to ride at riding school where standards are very variable but have the money now to buy their own horse.Many have regular lessons but again the standard of instructors is very variable. On top of that yes, most of us have fallen for some form of quackery or other at some stage,mainly through ignorance.It can certainly be a learning curve.One thing I have made up my mind about is that I will never put up with a rude or abusive instructor ever again no matter who they are.They are bullies pure and simple.I also look with some sceptisim at so called "Natural Horsemen",mainly men and their claims of science based teaching.[/QUOTE

That is true, just read any pony story book from the 1950s and 1960s, there were the ones who had a groom, the farmers' children and the pony mad vicar's daughter.

And I know one BHS Fellow who regularly had their pupils in tears, in their early days of instructing at least.

I too was taught by the last of the Army instructors at Pony Club, in fact one of the general discussions was what was to happen as the last of them got too old and retired. But the thing about the Army instructors was that they were very experienced had taught many to ride and had hundreds of horses through their hands and all were keen hunting chaps. If there was a "English National Equitation School" it was at Weedon Army Barracks, and that has never been replaced, although I think there was a short-lived scheme to be at BHS headquarters at Stoneleigh.
Click to expand...
 
teapot said:
Great question. Does the factory process of getting people through to their Stage 3/old AI equivalent within a year actually do them any favours? Especially with places closing left, right and centre, when they're solely trained in coaching/riding/horse care.

What about other aspects that argubly may lead to a job interview more than the abilty to lunge a horse for exercise such as business management/social media/marketing/admin?

I dont put my exams on my CV in any way, but I do mention in them a 'I've done personal/professional development in my spare time' manner.
Click to expand...

My friend lives near a large college that has students who do the BHS training, sometimes she would have students to help, some she said couldn't even catch the family pony and put a headcollar on. It's not really the students fault, colleges are so risk averse that they are never going to risk them getting kicked by something that has attitude. Even our local veterinary school final year students are not able to give injections or do teeth unless they get someone like me who walks away and lets them fiddle in peace, they are so concerned about being sued.
My friend had her BHS Stages funded by her employer, in her fifties, after working with, and ridden horses since she was sixteen, she wondered if she would pass. Her main comment was you could tell the ones that had real work experience, even if they failed, they were the ones she would employ.
Its become an academic exam, taken in as risk free environment as possible, when really it should be more like the driving test. Can this person in real life asses and handle situations, so they do not harm either the horse or others. Do we really want young people to risk themselves for a job where there is little career structure, where they often work in poor conditions for little remuneration?
I left school at sixteen, only wanting to work with horses, and got myself a grooms job out of the H&H. I am immensely grateful that I was well looked after, and learned a lot. As a basically self taught rider, quickly learning what I had missing in my education, and discovered dressage. It did not take me long to realise that long term this was not going to keep me. The colleges are really putting off the inevitable, that they will have to get a 'real job', but now they will have as student loan.
Whether you agree with the style of teaching, to a degree the old fashioned get on with it, you start at 7.00, you get cold wet and mucky most days and nothing is perfect, soon concentrates your career choices. Oh, and the horse come first, no excuses.
 
Last edited:
teapot said:
Great question. Does the factory process of getting people through to their Stage 3/old AI equivalent within a year actually do them any favours? Especially with places closing left, right and centre, when they're solely trained in coaching/riding/horse care.

What about other aspects that argubly may lead to a job interview more than the abilty to lunge a horse for exercise such as business management/social media/marketing/admin?

I dont put my exams on my CV in any way, but I do mention in them a 'I've done personal/professional development in my spare time' manner.
Click to expand...

I agree that to run a yard these days, business and marketing skills are just as important as horse skills (if not sometimes more!)- and I do think some of the degree courses might be better at providing this. However, given the cost of getting a degree, are graduates likely to want to work for £10 an hour at a small stables?

FWIW, when I worked at yard, I had the skills to do things like running/marketing small shows for our clients, which brought in money and my employers really appreciated. But I could do that because I'd worked outside the industry and now have a career where I earn more than I could ever earn at a small riding stables (down here at least).

But I do think doing a course which gives more transferable skills would be a good idea- there are office jobs where a knowledge of horses is also useful (especially in e.g. racing) but a full degree probably isn't needed. Some colleges might do this already, but I do think it's something to consider! I also think the apprenticeship route often doesn't train people in this aspect of the business.
 
I just ordered the German riding manual (in English so grand daughter can also read it). I get the impression it is based on the manual from the 1930s. I have been reading up Felix Burkner, and it seems that he trained Podhajsky.
If you look at Charles Harris's book on riding you will see that he learned to ride in the British Army - indeed he joined the army in order to learn to ride - but he saw Podhajsky ride in the 1948 Olympics.

The Germans were banned from the 1948 Olympics but Podhajsky always pleaded innocence and Austrian citizenship.
I wonder what UK riding might be like, had Charles Harris been able to watch German riders in 1948 and gone off to learn from Burkner? For the Spanish school is limited to dressage, whereas Burkner coached army teams in jumping and cross country as well.

I am pretty ignorant about UK equestrianism and would be glad of other people's information and opinions
 
Wishfilly said:
I agree that to run a yard these days, business and marketing skills are just as important as horse skills (if not sometimes more!)- and I do think some of the degree courses might be better at providing this. However, given the cost of getting a degree, are graduates likely to want to work for £10 an hour at a small stables?

But I do think doing a course which gives more transferable skills would be a good idea- there are office jobs where a knowledge of horses is also useful (especially in e.g. racing) but a full degree probably isn't needed. Some colleges might do this already, but I do think it's something to consider! I also think the apprenticeship route often doesn't train people in this aspect of the business.
Click to expand...

Absolutely no reason why the training centres (I'm not thinking colleges/degress here) can't include all aspects of business management for their junior staff imho.
 
teapot said:
Absolutely no reason why the training centres (I'm not thinking colleges/degress here) can't include all aspects of business management for their junior staff imho.
Click to expand...

I don't really know enough about the big training centres, but if they can, they definitely ought to.
 
Skib said:
I just ordered the German riding manual (in English so grand daughter can also read it). I get the impression it is based on the manual from the 1930s. I have been reading up Felix Burkner, and it seems that he trained Podhajsky.
If you look at Charles Harris's book on riding you will see that he learned to ride in the British Army - indeed he joined the army in order to learn to ride - but he saw Podhajsky ride in the 1948 Olympics.

The Germans were banned from the 1948 Olympics but Podhajsky always pleaded innocence and Austrian citizenship.
I wonder what UK riding might be like, had Charles Harris been able to watch German riders in 1948 and gone off to learn from Burkner? For the Spanish school is limited to dressage, whereas Burkner coached army teams in jumping and cross country as well.

I am pretty ignorant about UK equestrianism and would be glad of other people's information and opinions
Click to expand...


Well, I was going to say that the only Equestrian School that Britain has ever had was the Army. There were some very good riders and instructors and they had a great deal of knowledge, and I suspect that many went to refine their skills in other countries. However, for England, it was for the training of men and horses to be army horses, hunters and polo ponies and schooling was as a means to an end, not an end in itself.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top