Improving training/professionalism/the industry?

The Fuzzy Furry said:
They still don't go anywhere near what I'd like to see with regards to training horses from early to competition years. This particular part is very sadly lacking.

Before I get brick batted, yes, I have already seen the new requirements and no, I'm still not impressed with what has very recently come through stage 4, not at all. Obviously 1 person is not indicative, nor are 3 stage 3, but I was totally underwhelmed, honestly!

Shils, stop pressing buttons :p
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There's my next question - is it quality of candidate, is it the training, is it the BHS? Does the entire industry need an overhaul?

An ex colleague told me once that the new pathways mean she's examinered far more people who weren't the standard because the process is more accessible. I'm very torn and I'm working my way through them!
 
tristar said:
hi shil, please explain further about intuition and uk riders

thnaks
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I was not being entirely serious, I'm afraid.
I have a lot of respect for those who criticise the BHS exam system after successfully obtaining them (for example the Teapot above). It really isn't a perfect system, and for a long time the BHS seemed resistant to a more scientific approach to horse management.

I have, however, met people who set themselves up as 'eventing coaches' despite being unable to ride one side of a horse, and failing their BHS Stage 2 jumping section five (yes five!) times. And who didn't bother with the petty things like being insured, or first aid qualified.

Investigate instructors very fully before you use them.
 
Personally I think one really important step would be to have a proper register of instructors. Not an optional extra cost one like the BHS register.

If I want to find a farrier the register lists all qualified farriers. If they aren't on the list they aren't qualified. Likewise many none equine qualifications. I am a lawyer, I am listed on a register and I can check the register to see what qualifications other lawyers hold.

It is less important for experienced riders who can evaluate the quality of training they are receiving but for beginners, novices and non-horsey parents it is important. If there was an easily checkable register it would be more difficult for riding schools to use unsupervised inexperienced apprentices to deliver lessons. It would also encourage good instructors to continue developing and help clients to seek out good quality well qualified and insured instructors.

It won't fix all issues but it is one relatively easy improvement.
 
Cost, availability of funding and practical issues with accessing training is another issue.

My instructor is UKCC level 3 and very keen on developing as a coach but has spoken about the costs involved in progressing with further qualifications, having to pick and prioritise and the difficulties of doing this when you also have to earn a living.

My nephew is an equine apprentice and I have looked at the costs of him getting BHS qualifications to teach and it is prohibitive, especially when you add in the costs of travel and/or accommodation because fewer centres are running the exams.

The NVQ and Apprenticeship schemes do not seem designed to fit together with BHS exams. School leavers need to be on an NVQ or Apprenticeship, but are these qualifications really fit for purpose?
 
Shilasdair said:
I do think that we need a foreign system (Spain, or Germany) imposed on UK riders.
For example Carl Hester, a Fellow of the BHS clearly is completely unable to train horses... :p
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Carl received the very best of educations from a German trainer, plus he's a genius. I wonder if he'd be able to pass Stage One though? I'm not kidding, I know of two separate Olympic eventing team riders who failed their AI Stage 1 - 3 (one of them because she didn't run up the stirrup irons after the Ride-and-Lead section).
 
Shilasdair said:
I was not being entirely serious, I'm afraid.
I have a lot of respect for those who criticise the BHS exam system after successfully obtaining them (for example the Teapot above). It really isn't a perfect system, and for a long time the BHS seemed resistant to a more scientific approach to horse management.

I have, however, met people who set themselves up as 'eventing coaches' despite being unable to ride one side of a horse, and failing their BHS Stage 2 jumping section five (yes five!) times. And who didn't bother with the petty things like being insured, or first aid qualified.

Investigate instructors very fully before you use them.
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I firmly believe the industry as a whole can do more - training, qualifications, education standards, customer service, all round horse, yard, and client management.
 
teapot said:
I firmly believe the industry as a whole can do more - training, qualifications, education standards, customer service, all round horse, yard, and client management.
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I agree with you - but the problem is funding.
Training for the exams is so expensive, and with little incentive of high earnings at the end.
For a while, you could (just) obtain government funding to run college courses for BHS exam preparation, but that is no longer possible.
 
I personally think there should always be room for individualism and differing styles with horses though. No two horses or two riders are exactly alike. I would hate to see all riders all looking the same - I think the sport of show jumping shows why differences are important. Back in the 60s 70s and 80s everyone loved watching the HOYS and Olympia. Now people say its boring and everyone looks the same and rides the same sort of horse.
 
Shilasdair said:
I agree with you - but the problem is funding.
Training for the exams is so expensive, and with little incentive of high earnings at the end.
For a while, you could (just) obtain government funding to run college courses for BHS exam preparation, but that is no longer possible.
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Funding's a big one; showing an interest in improving sometimes what is already deemed as good enough is quite another.
 
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Cortez said:
Carl received the very best of educations from a German trainer, plus he's a genius. I wonder if he'd be able to pass Stage One though? I'm not kidding, I know of two separate Olympic eventing team riders who failed their AI Stage 1 - 3 (one of them because she didn't run up the stirrup irons after the Ride-and-Lead section).
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Whilst the Fellowship is an honorary one, Carl did take his exams and qualified as an AI years ago.
 
Although I passed my AI in 1985 and II in 1995, I have since trained riders for the 1 and 2, so feel qualified to comment. Oh, I also did the UKCC level 3.

To me, the fault is that the exams are mass produced, mainly now in colleges. I see riders who couldn't turn out a rambunctious 3yo pass exams because they have only ever handled older cobs (not all cobs, but you see that I mean - and yes, some cobs can be tricky LOL). I actually think the exams process has gone downhill because of the mass produced element.

In my AI, only 3 of 24 passed. For the II 2 of 12. This was good and proper, the other people were winging it - not to standard and caught out. At that time, if you failed one part, you re-did the lot. This was OK to me, as if you were truly to standard then you would be successful first time and then second time too. If you scraped through on a wing and a prayer, you would be found out in one section of the exam (maybe not the same section as last time!).

I did fail one part once, in the riding part of the stage 4. I passed everything except where the examiner's intermediaire dressage horse was wheeled in. I had practiced riding youngsters mainly, plus some remedial horses at a SJ yard (polite way of saying naughty horses) and this horse found me out (although was great fun to ride). On that exam the SJ was fully up to height (I think it may have been 1.10 max) which suited me as I had got myself a casual job with a SJer to prepare. I stormed the jumping, stormed the re-make horse who was afraid of the contact, stormed the youngster on the flat... just the one who caught me out. It was apparently a borderline fail, but hey ho, re-booked as soon as I could, booking. schoolmaster lesson in between.

I took the re-take at a different yard, still a college. Wow, what a difference. The SJing was not comparable at all. That one was barely 90cm. I queried this, and was told it was because the horses were not able to jump full height, but it was comparable as SJing a less able horse over a smaller course was a difficult as riding a 'proper' horse round a big course.

I nearly laughed my socks off! So, first exam, the horse required balancing in mind and body, correcting, not offending, control of impulsion, stride length etc, all being tactful as it was a blood animal. The second exam was kicking a cob round a small course. Ye-ha. How on earth can that be comparable? I passed both, it just was not a standardised test in any way.

I then learned that the first college was not popular for the exam as the jumping was 'too hard' and I can see that the first one required a rider, the second a passenger who could kick. The flat horses on the second yard were all simply good old reliable college horses too.

If all exams were like the first yard, where even the lunge horses were spicy (think 3 horses, separated by poles on the floor, all heads down broncing along), where the candidates had to actually take hold of the situation, then it would be a test. The second one was more horses who went through the motions.

I agree that stage 1 and 2 should be a more established horse, but for 3 and 4, there should be some element of proving that you can sit a challenge. Yes, there would be an element of risk involved, but then if you don't do that on test, then when people go out into the real world with their pieces of paper, then they will be at greater risk when they have to lead, lunge, ride etc the real world horses.

In the first centre, the riding master mitigated whilst watched the warm up. Some candidates were bumped off after simply jumping a X pole or similar in the warmup as they were considered not a good enough standard to jump a course. This was not by the examiner, this was a representative of the centre, telling the examiners (or having a professional discussion), who then stopped the exam for that candidate.

Too many candidates nowadays take the easy route (and why wouldn't they?) and do a course, where everything is provided - safe horses, risk assessments, info drip fed. They never become independent, thinking riders. Ones who can actually clip the leg, remove the shoe, poultice a foot so the dratted thing stays on overnight. Actually load a reluctant horse, remove a bean, lunge the horse who bogs off across the school if your attention isn't on them.

I agree with another poster in some ways, it has all become so accessible that people don't actually have to be that good. It is still possible to learn to pass the exam. Especially when you can do it one bit at a time. One day you will get the easy horse, the question you know etc.

It is also easy to dis the last generation, and say it has all got better, but in a lot of cases the same people are still in post. I did the 'instructor of the year' contest one year (it was cheaper than other CPD courses, and was fun) and was shocked to hear the person 'judging' me tell us all about how his (large and famous centre) had the 'window lickers' come to ride the horses. He is still in charge of said large and famous centre (training and exam centre) and I can't believe much has changed. So I do think some new and progressive thinking is needed, just not the making of exams easier.

I would prefer it to go back to people doing a JOB whilst training, actually dealing with real world horses. Linking an exam system with apprenticeships. But, still allowing independent candidates to be well tested on exam day if that is their 'route' to the qualification. So, still accessible by different routes.

Also, I don't now tell employers about the BHS II. Why would I? It means nothing. The exams need to be on the national qualifications grid, earning points. I'm not sure the BHS is placed to do that. I was told they were doing it 6 years ago. Something even appeared online, then disappeared again.

I am interested in what Pammy comes up with.
 
Shilasdair said:
I was not being entirely serious, I'm afraid.
I have a lot of respect for those who criticise the BHS exam system after successfully obtaining them (for example the Teapot above). It really isn't a perfect system, and for a long time the BHS seemed resistant to a more scientific approach to horse management.

I have, however, met people who set themselves up as 'eventing coaches' despite being unable to ride one side of a horse, and failing their BHS Stage 2 jumping section five (yes five!) times. And who didn't bother with the petty things like being insured, or first aid qualified.

Investigate instructors very fully before you use them.
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There are a lot of very dodgy instructors out there.The fact that some have qualifications doesn't really mean a lot to be honest.One of the best I had had absolutely no qualifications at all.He still taught me (the first person to actually try) to be a balanced rider.
 
Cortez said:
Carl received the very best of educations from a German trainer, plus he's a genius. I wonder if he'd be able to pass Stage One though? I'm not kidding, I know of two separate Olympic eventing team riders who failed their AI Stage 1 - 3 (one of them because she didn't run up the stirrup irons after the Ride-and-Lead section).
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And he always credits his German trainer for helping him to get where he is now.
 
eahotson said:
There are a lot of very dodgy instructors out there.The fact that some have qualifications doesn't really mean a lot to be honest.One of the best I had had absolutely no qualifications at all.He still taught me (the first person to actually try) to be a balanced rider.
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The best instructor I know locally doesn’t have a piece of paper to his name and hasn’t sat a horse for 30 years since a point to pointer came down on him and broke his hip. And yet he’s a natural born teacher, can explain difficult concepts and alter a lesson plan on the spot to work with what’s in front of him. I’d take him over a lot of paper qualified staff any day, but he never did the exams as they were too expensive for someone who was already working and couldn’t get time off to travel to the centres and prepare - getting the qualifications in Cornwall requires a lot of travelling!

I’ve never done a BHS qualification for the same reason - too expensive. I’ve got level two and three coaching qualifications in several other sports, and have used them to pick up casual work in sports clubs and after school clubs - the cost was always subsided by the governing bodies, who actively want to develop more young coaches, and were available locally.

I’ve never wanted to teach riding full time but if there was help and support in accessing the lower level coaching elements, I would have gladly offered to run kids sessions at the local riding clubs who are crying out for instructors. But there’s no way on to the pathway unless you can afford to spend a fortune doing it.

There needs to be an overhaul in what’s available for young coaches to get started.
 
Snowfilly said:
The best instructor I know locally doesn’t have a piece of paper to his name and hasn’t sat a horse for 30 years since a point to pointer came down on him and broke his hip. And yet he’s a natural born teacher, can explain difficult concepts and alter a lesson plan on the spot to work with what’s in front of him. I’d take him over a lot of paper qualified staff any day, but he never did the exams as they were too expensive for someone who was already working and couldn’t get time off to travel to the centres and prepare - getting the qualifications in Cornwall requires a lot of travelling!

I’ve never done a BHS qualification for the same reason - too expensive. I’ve got level two and three coaching qualifications in several other sports, and have used them to pick up casual work in sports clubs and after school clubs - the cost was always subsided by the governing bodies, who actively want to develop more young coaches, and were available locally.

I’ve never wanted to teach riding full time but if there was help and support in accessing the lower level coaching elements, I would have gladly offered to run kids sessions at the local riding clubs who are crying out for instructors. But there’s no way on to the pathway unless you can afford to spend a fortune doing it.

There needs to be an overhaul in what’s available for young coaches to get started.
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I was planning to get qualified so I could teach on an occasional/casual basis. I did my stage 1 but then couldn't find anywhere local to do the stage 2 the extra distance to travel added to the times of day the training was available alongside a full time job just made it impossible to progress.
 
Great posts guys, keep them coming!

There's just so much up for discussion and debate.

Re finances, there is a BHS scholarship to get your BHS Stage 3 Complete (so the old AI) but you must be working for a BHS approved centre AND have no intention of leaving. Seems a little shortsighted. It's what put me off applying as didn't want to be tied into a job at the time I considered it. I was considering the scholarship because I had such little support in my job role in the first place.

Customer service only comes in at the Stage 4 management exam level - ridiculous. Shouldn't junior staff/coaches (so Stage 2) be trained in this from the moment they start?!
 
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The thing about being a riding instructor is that you have to be able to teach, not just know how to ride and train a horse. They are two different skills which aren't always present in one person. It doesn't matter what someone can do with a horse if they don't know how to teach.
 
mule said:
The thing about being a riding instructor is that you have to be able to teach, not just know how to ride and train a horse. They are two different skills which aren't always present in one person. It doesn't matter what someone can do with a horse if they don't know how to teach.
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Whilst this is true, the most important part of teaching someone to ride well is being able to do that yourself, and not just ride: be able to train the horse from the ground up, all the way to the highest levels. BHS qualifications will not enable you to learn how to train or ride at very high levels. There is nothing in the UK remotely comparable to the Spanish Riding School, Saumur, Warendorf, the Portuguese school, the Royal School of Equestrian Art in Jerez. Instructor training courses on the continent of Europe are orders of magnitude more advanced and professional.
 
mule said:
The thing about being a riding instructor is that you have to be able to teach, not just know how to ride and train a horse. They are two different skills which aren't always present in one person. It doesn't matter what someone can do with a horse if they don't know how to teach.
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Agree 100%
 
Cortez said:
Whilst this is true, the most important part of teaching someone to ride well is being able to do that yourself, and not just ride: be able to train the horse from the ground up, all the way to the highest levels. BHS qualifications will not enable you to learn how to train or ride at very high levels. There is nothing in the UK remotely comparable to the Spanish Riding School, Saumur, Warendorf, the Portuguese school, the Royal School of Equestrian Art in Jerez. Instructor training courses on the continent of Europe are orders of magnitude more advanced and professional.
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True but some people can ride very well but can't teach.They can't adapt to the horse and perhaps the pupil in front of them For instance I watched a quite good lesson from a young instructor from a compeition background.However he quite spoilt it by continuing to describle the horse in front of him as< very stuffy>. He is a lovely laid back chap bought for his older rider who is quite nervous and has some health problems.He gives her a lot of pleasure and she was very offended by his writing her horse off.Would Carl Hester want him? I doubt it but he ticks the box for an awful lot of us.Technically he was right but it was very tactless.Comments like that don't build confidence either.
 
The BHS training gives a good grounding in the basics of caring the horse including seeking to instil the discipline and routine that needs at the bottom of every bodies system .
It’s fashionable to knock its trainers but as I go out and about I masses of trainers with poor grounding in and no idea how or interest in working with the rider position and I see masses of people stuck in one place because of this .
The BHS training taught me one thing above everything else how to systematically train position .
It was also a great starting point that gave a great formal understanding of the basics from which I used as a great starting point .
My trainer now was BHS trained extremely classical in outlook he could pop on to any baroque trained horse and ride it, those BHS exams have taken him all over the world working and learning .
I am not saying every single BHS trainer is great just like not every single person training in Spain won’t be good but it’s narrow minded to dismiss the BHS approach .
 
mule said:
The thing about being a riding instructor is that you have to be able to teach, not just know how to ride and train a horse. They are two different skills which aren't always present in one person. It doesn't matter what someone can do with a horse if they don't know how to teach.
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This is so true. Over the years I and my children have lessons from people just clocking up their hours, and the local AI, to FBHS and international riders, and most are doing it to make additional income so they can continue to ride and work with horses. Especially with children there seems to be no understanding of child development of how that their effects how they learn, and what is actually possible for a child to do at a certain age for their normal stage of development.
Then there is the horse welfare part of the training which seems to be centred around a stabled horse, which is doing a regular amount of work, when we know most horse owners do not ride regularly now and the horse may be stuck in the winter months for long periods.
There seems to be a market in the development of wacky crackery being sold to very novice horse owners, but basic information of what a horse actually needs to remain healthy physically and mentally is obscured, so there is a huge amount of people needing help but perhaps the more traditional training is never going to reach those people because its based on a very limited inflexible knowledge base.
So what does the training want to do, is educating the majority of riders and horse owners who ride or do not even ride but still need educating, or producing sports people who want to progress and compete? There is a lot of money obtained from government grants for Olympic sports and I think this has skewed how horse skills are thought of, top down. I looked how the coaching certificate were being developed, and I think that makes it clear is a more sporting qualification, and through its different pathways was more flexible.
I think you can have both but I think it's unfair to take money from clients who want to learn when you have no real interest in their development and just see them a source of income, and they have not even the basic knowledge of how to teach effectively.
 
Goldenstar said:
The BHS training gives a good grounding in the basics of caring the horse including seeking to instil the discipline and routine that needs at the bottom of every bodies system .
It’s fashionable to knock its trainers but as I go out and about I masses of trainers with poor grounding in and no idea how or interest in working with the rider position and I see masses of people stuck in one place because of this .
The BHS training taught me one thing above everything else how to systematically train position .
It was also a great starting point that gave a great formal understanding of the basics from which I used as a great starting point .
My trainer now was BHS trained extremely classical in outlook he could pop on to any baroque trained horse and ride it, those BHS exams have taken him all over the world working and learning .
I am not saying every single BHS trainer is great just like not every single person training in Spain won’t be good but it’s narrow minded to dismiss the BHS approach .
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I have BHS qualifications. I did them in order to be able to teach at an Irish riding school that had never heard of my qualifications from the REAAE (Royal School of Equestrian Art). I added precisely nothing to my store of equestrian knowledge by doing so, other than to observe some curiously outmoded and frankly ridiculous ideas of what constitutes good riding and training. The standard was so low and that I wouldn't consider it a professional qualification at all. You are quite correct, the teaching of riding is a separate skill set from the training of the horse, but if the general standard of riding in this part of the world is anything to go by the BHS is not doing an acceptable job in either area. There are many good trainers and teachers with BHS qualifications, but I bet they would be just as good without them.
 
Cortez said:
I have BHS qualifications. I did them in order to be able to teach at an Irish riding school that had never heard of my qualifications from the REAAE (Royal School of Equestrian Art). I added precisely nothing to my store of equestrian knowledge by doing so, other than to observe some curiously outmoded and frankly ridiculous ideas of what constitutes good riding and training. The standard was so low and that I wouldn't consider it a professional qualification at all. You are quite correct, the teaching of riding is a separate skill set from the training of the horse, but if the general standard of riding in this part of the world is anything to go by the BHS is not doing an acceptable job in either area. There are many good trainers and teachers with BHS qualifications, but I bet they would be just as good without them.
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Pammy Hutton and a few others look down from their eyries and complain about the poor standard of riding at grass roots level without ever questioning why.
 
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