In defence of Ashdale Cruise Master

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Black Beth

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I do not profess to be an expert in anyway but after reading some of the comments on the Badminton XC thread felt the need to defend what is in my opinion (and that of many others more knowledgeable than I) a potentially brilliant horse.
Up until the end of 2009 when Oliver Townend took over the ride, Ashdale Cruise Master had been produced by Emily Gilruth. He advanced from Pre Novice to Intermediate in his first season – 2006. As to those of you that think he is not a 4* horse, he has already jumped round Burghley twice with Emily. A steady clear at his first attempt in 2008 and then in 2009 unfortunately incurring 20 penalties at the second corner of the dairy mound where he jumped the wrong side of the flag, clearing the massive corner! The pair still finished in 26th place and would probably have had a top ten placing otherwise. His results are there for anyone to see on the British Eventing website.
Before Oliver took over the ride the horse had never left a leg or looked in danger of falling and had always finished XC with plenty of fuel in the tank.
I am not for a minute questioning Mr Townends ability as a rider. Obviously his results speak for themselves. What I am suggesting is that maybe the lure of the Rolex Grand Slam was a greater draw than the long term education and welfare of the horse. I believe they had already had a fall in an OI at Lincolnshire before going out to Kentucky.
I do not wish to start up another argument about Oliver Townend. I am simply suggesting that we have some brilliant (if less well known) producers of young event horses in this country and as in the case of Emily Gilruth and Ashdale Cruise Master it is a travesty to see them lose rides to the “top names”, especially when it results in the loss of confidence of such a special horse.
 
I don't think its necessary for you to defend ACM, I'm sure anyone can see that he is a great horse. Perhaps it is the change of rider, in my opinion OliT is quite an aggressive rider (which obviously has reaped rewards in the past).

Maybe ACM just isn't used to having that style of rider, it does sound such a shame for Emily to loose the ride on him if they were doing so well.
 
That is a very well made point, BB. I think Oli is a terrific rider but many (most?) riders often struggle taking on a 4* horse from another rider - even the success stories, like Mary and Archie, usually take time to achieve.

You are obviously new to this forum and I'm afraid a feature of it is that bandwagons tend to be jumped on fairly swiftly - the criticism of ACM is a case in point :p However, I personally think the early posts on the subject were just people making the point (rightly, in my view) that Oli had given the horse a good ride and, for whatever reason, he wasn't getting the right responses on this occasion.

Totally agree about the lesser-known producers too and the British set-up can be horrifically prejudiced against them. Another prime example of this is Rebecca Gibbs who produced Coup de Coeur (beautifully and patiently)... who knows what that horse would have achieved if he had remained with her - and I am not in any way decrying his subsequent jockeys, merely questioning the wisdom of moving him.
 
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I think there was a need to defend him actually ;) I've heard a number of people say that he's not a 4* horse and shouldn't be run at that level, so it's very interesting to hear his history as I'd not looked up his previous results.

During the Badminton commentary (as they were approaching the lake) , I think it was Ian Stark who mentioned that Oli T has struggled to build up as a strong relationship with the horse as he has with his other 4* rides so it's presumably a fairly well-recognised issue. The question is, will Oli & the horse's owners continue as-is or make a change?
 
I really would love to make a comment but I think i'd get banned!! So I will say this, maybe ACM would do better with a more sympathetic rider???
 
I dont think we'll see ACM with Oli for much longer.....

If it hasnt been a problem for the horse before coing to Oli then it must simply be the change in riding style which doesnt suit him. Not saying for one minute one or the other is wrong (who am I to comment on people of this ability?!) but not every horse suits every rider...
 
Black Beth said:
Before Oliver took over the ride the horse had never left a leg or looked in danger of falling and had always finished XC with plenty of fuel in the tank.
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No doubt that ACM is a terrific horse but I don't think you're completely right with your statement.
In 2008 he was the horse running behind me at Bramham & left both legs behind somehow ending up on his knees rather than flipping and making quite a mess of himself. I just remember Emily retiring and coming into the vet box with the horse covered in blood. I was told that the same had happened in Ede the previous season.
ACM is fantastic in the dressage and has the odd unlucky pole SJ but when he's tiring XC he forgets to lift his legs. Maybe he needs to be a little fitter or maybe he needs to be ridden a little more sympathetically as he always looks like he can't work things out fast enough when ridden strongly and by the time his legs have caught up with his brain he's already in the *****!
You only have to look at his results over the past couple of seasons to know that he is a seriously good horse - this season he's already won the 3* at Belton, last season he won Burnham Mkt 3*, Tattersalls World Cup Qualifier & was 5th at Luhmulen 4*.
 
There is the simple fact that OT is a much bigger and heavier rider than Emily - not every horse is up to carrying a bloke. Of course there are different riding styles. However one very nasty fall in Kentucky, a lot of mistakes yesterday where the inevitable happened after quite a few misses suggests that ACM is not a 4* horse with his current jockey. As has been said above, the horse might go better for a more sympathetic, less competitive/driven rider.
 
j1ffy said:
I think there was a need to defend him actually ;) I've heard a number of people say that he's not a 4* horse and shouldn't be run at that level, so it's very interesting to hear his history as I'd not looked up his previous results.

During the Badminton commentary (as they were approaching the lake) , I think it was Ian Stark who mentioned that Oli T has struggled to build up as a strong relationship with the horse as he has with his other 4* rides so it's presumably a fairly well-recognised issue. The question is, will Oli & the horse's owners continue as-is or make a change?[/QUOTE

I agree Jiffy that there is a need to defend ACM but if OT is struggling to build up a strong relationship with him then why not stick to 3* until the relationship is more secure. It's hardly going to build a confident horse & rider bond when both end up on the floor so often.
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Issue with sticking to 3* may not be just OT's decision - 4star horse, paid 4 star prices etc - expected to run. Horse is capable - look how it came through sunken road on OT's line for him?

However I think they do not look comfy together it was not a round that was easy to watch or made you feel secure. I think perhaps we may see the horse go elsewhere. Will be interested to see how the other horses go this year for him at 4 * too which will probably impact on anything that happens.

Maybe that is why MT managed to buy his winner? that he did not get on with OT! Who knows....
 
I thought Oli gave the horse a good ride but for whatever reason the horse hasn't looked quite as impressive as we might expect under his new jockey. With hindsight, taking a horse to kentucky without having a season together first might have been too much too soon as I don't think the horse has looked as confident since. It must be hard for all concerned to have all that expectation on this horse. I really feel for Emily Gilruth. It must be horrible to watch a horse you know very well and presumably really care about falling at badminton with a different jockey.
 
QUOTE=qaz;9604683]No doubt that ACM is a terrific horse but I don't think you're completely right with your statement.
In 2008 he was the horse running behind me at Bramham & left both legs behind somehow ending up on his knees rather than flipping and making quite a mess of himself. I just remember Emily retiring and coming into the vet box with the horse covered in blood. I was told that the same had happened in Ede the previous season.


Yes, you are correct qaz that he did fall in the water at Bramham and graze his knees but it was most definately not caused by leaving his legs. He infact overjumped into the water causing him to trip on landing and he was eliminated at Ede as Emily jumped fence 5 before jumping fence 4, largely due the horses exhuberance and steering problems.:)
 
i would love to see the horse taken round a 4* slightly more slowly, less competitively, possibly by a different jockey since i don't think 'only here for the beer' is quite Mr OT's style! ;) ;)
the horse's jumping doesn't worry me the way that dangly one of Ruth's did, he dangled with no excuses imho (e.g. when turning them over at the Badders water), whereas in Kentucky OT admitted he 'didn't get a good shot to the fence', and at Badminton the horse was looking very tired.
Must admit that horses who keep their super style even when tired are the ones I'd far rather see (and ride)... remember the one Zara nursed home a few years ago (was it Glenbuck?) obv tired but still making a super shape at the fences.
 
Oliver does think a lot of ACM and I am a fan of Olivers but I do agree with others I do feel AMC needs a more sympathetic rider and maybe could have been fitter for the competition but who am I to question that
Land Vision was produced by Oliver but not sold due to not getting on with the rider sadly he needed the money at the time.
 
Black Beth said:
QUOTE=qaz;9604683]Yes, you are correct qaz that he did fall in the water at Bramham and graze his knees but it was most definately not caused by leaving his legs. He infact overjumped into the water causing him to trip on landing and he was eliminated at Ede as Emily jumped fence 5 before jumping fence 4, largely due the horses exhuberance and steering problems.:)
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No offence intended, I was obviously riding and didn't see the incident - simply going on what I was told by several eye witnesses and the fact that his owners who were in the vet box although understandably concerned were livid as it had happened before.

I obviously understand about the ACM being a 4* horse at 4* money & it may not be OT choice to run him at 4* but surely a successful 3* horse with a clean record is more valued than a struggling 4* horse that for whatever reason being rider or horse error is fast getting a reputation for tipping up?
 
I'm another that would probably be banned if I said what I thought. I don't know anything about this particular horse but know two others very well and both had not benefited at all from his particular brand of riding.
 
Couldn't agree more BB - point very well made!! :) Emily had a fabulous relationship with the horse (results weren't bad either!!) and would have been upset to have had Splash (ACM) taken away from her - after producing him to be her first 4* horse. To me - he always looked a more classy horse with Emily riding than he has since Oli took over. Must be said also, i thought that Splash was looking a rather too lean (even for a four star horse - compare with Jakata for example) at Badminton and without wishing to be rude - oli would not be the lightest or light seated rider. Hope we see some drastic improvements in the horse - he deserves it - the raw talent is there - it has been proved already at his two burghley runs with EG
 
Ok, I can bite my tongue no longer,

My view is and always has been that OT is an aggressive, hard rider. He uses his strength, flappy arms and legs to get over the fences. You NEVER see WFP ride like that, he is a quiet rider, sits beautifully, is in balance and in tune with his horses and gives himself time to get to know them and I prefer to see horses ridden this way. I cannot watch OT ride xc because I feel he rides the horses with far too much pressure, right back to when I first saw him on Topping, it was his shear determination and grit that got that horse around Badminton and Burghley.

It broke my heart when I saw ACM's fall at Kentucky because the poor boy whinnied as he fell, you could tell that he was scared/shocked and then watching the footage of his fall at Badminton, once he got on his feet and stood still, his muscles were quivering and he looked really tired :( I know he was close to the end of the course but he did not look a happy horse, imho.

And before anyone berates me for OT bashing, i'm not, I'm simply stating that I do not prefer his style of riding and I don't think ACM does either :(
 
I hope they back off such big comps for a while and allow the horse to regain his. Joi de vive. This bloodline are funny devils, they are usually strong minded keen jumpers, so something is badly wrong if he is trailing his legs, it's a clear signal he isn't totally happy, either with the way he's ridden (and I believe OT is an exceptionally good rider but perhaps his macho style doesn't get the best ex this horse)
The other thing which is probably just a guess, have they had this horses eyesight checked thoroughly? The only time I have seen a previously bold horse fall several times is when it started with cataracts unknown to it's owners.
 
wizoz said:
Ok, I can bite my tongue no longer,

My view is and always has been that OT is an aggressive, hard rider. He uses his strength, flappy arms and legs to get over the fences. You NEVER see WFP ride like that, he is a quiet rider, sits beautifully, is in balance and in tune with his horses and gives himself time to get to know them and I prefer to see horses ridden this way. I cannot watch OT ride xc because I feel he rides the horses with far too much pressure, right back to when I first saw him on Topping, it was his shear determination and grit that got that horse around Badminton and Burghley.

It broke my heart when I saw ACM's fall at Kentucky because the poor boy whinnied as he fell, you could tell that he was scared/shocked and then watching the footage of his fall at Badminton, once he got on his feet and stood still, his muscles were quivering and he looked really tired :( I know he was close to the end of the course but he did not look a happy horse, imho.

And before anyone berates me for OT bashing, i'm not, I'm simply stating that I do not prefer his style of riding and I don't think ACM does either :(
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well done, already said on another thread about how ACM looked after fall, agree with every word from original poster, I do hope that ACM goes back to Hardings and then to Emily, I am sure her heart must be almost torn out, she loved that horse and he loved her.
Its amazing how much more a horse will do for someone they trust and love....do you think Lenamore would still be the horse he is without trusting and loving Caroline, or Over To You, get my drift.
 
Talking of Joi de Vive Henryhorn.
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what wonderful photos, and particularly over log pile, no dangly legs there, thats for sure. Still have fingers crossed that maybe just maybe Emily will get him back.
 
That's more like the Knock Boy bloodline horses I know, they are uber careful with their front legs as a rule, which is why something is clearly wrong. People talk about Cruising but the jumping talent goes far further back than him.
I don't even think it's Oli's fault, for a horse who usually jumps like that tucked up and very careful, there has to be a reason other than the rider..
We owned the first stallion into this country from that line some twentyfive years ago and have bred dozens since, and not one has dangling front legs...
Yes, they can be strong XC, yes they don't suffer fools gladly but they damn well jump!!!
Lovely to see the horse going as I was sure he could, now no doubt his connections will be searching why he can't any more...
I do hope they find the reason.
 
wizoz, i agree.
Toddy, WFP, even AN (who is obv very determined and competitive but not in the same way as OT imho) and a host of other top riders GUIDE their horses. They're ready with really effective legs when necessary, they aren't weak in the slightest, but they do not DRIVE their horses over every fence. I don't like to see horses ridden this way, and imho most horses do not respond brilliantly to it. The sensitive ones will have doubts, will even get more worried because they feel the pressure. A well-trained, happy, enthusiastic xc horse takes the rider to the fence, accepts input but thinks for himself (that almost unbelievable balance)... truly great horses like Spring Along, Imperial Cavalier, Lenamore, loads and loads of others do this repeatedly at 4* level and obviously relish every second of it.
I, too, hope the horse goes back to Emily.
 
they looked super at belton quick and careful. who knows why these horses hit the wall sometimes but a lot did at the quarry this year.
 
I agree with you wizoz and kerilli,

I was at Badminton and at before the fall I thought the horse looked extremely tired.

In my humble opinion (and I am in no way an expert) ACM should have been nursed home the way Toddy nursed and guided his horse home. I thought OT was pushing too much for the time and I know which looked like better horsemanship to me..
 
lovely photo's :)

i am far ,far from qualified to comment :o but i can recognise a struggling, tiered horse when i see one and ACM was lucky to stay on his feet a few times, long before he eventually did fall.

i really felt OT was pushing his luck and should have thought about pulling the horse up as there was something clearly not right and i wasn't the slightest bit suprised when he did fall
i hope the horse has recovered from his fall

fell very sorry for emily she must be absoloutly gutted to watch her baby struggle :(
 
The horse doesn't need defending...his owners, rider and connections are the ones banging his head off the proverbial brick wall trying to get a result at 4* when he is so obviously unhappy at that level now. If he wasn't the subject of the thread I would not believe that the pics above are ACM. It's sad
 
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