In defence of Ashdale Cruise Master

I commented on the Badders thread regarding ACM. As is now, I stand by my words that I think there is a serious, if not fatal, accident waiting to happen at 4*. Emily produced the horse amazingly well and I cannot think there would be anyone in the world who could criticise her and the job she did! As for OT's riding at Badders, I actually thought his riding style was improved for the first half of the course.

My problem with ACM's current way of going is that he does not appear to learn by his mistakes - some horses get touchy feely when they are losing confidence and I wonder whether this was the case with ACM...the further he went the more he started to doubt himself. Had he left the nearside fore every time then I would be thinking it was a mechanical problem, but it was the offside fore that was left and caused the fall at the quarry....it was the near side at Kentucky.

Whatever the reasons, whether horse or rider error, I do hope the issue is resolved, as no one wants to see a 4* horse leaving a leg and having falls on a yearly basis.

Here is a vid I found on YouTube of OT's highlights and the fall - I really cannot see much to crit - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK7IqtTJJAs
 
Every time he leaves a knee, he leaves the one of the leading leg, the one that's closest to the fence. So, not mechanical, just the mark of a tiring horse in which, in his case, his front leg style is the first thing to go. Not good at all.
 
Just to add something else into this fray. I saw, for myself, that horse after it had galloped up the long straight towards the quarry and it was on its knees at that point. Clearly struggling and not forward. I didn't see the jump but at that point, didn't think that horse would finish. Sometimes horses just won't partner so well - Ginny Leng swapped horses with Ian Stark (Murphy himself) as he was just too strong for her. No question that she was a superb rider who produced her riders well but that combination was not going to work. As for Becca Gibbs and Coup de Coeur - I would be interested to know the background of that. She is a local rider to me and at one point, was riding some horses (babies) for my old YO. She was really lovely and I really felt for her when she lost Coup, particularly as her previous 4* horse Rosie always seemed to go wrong just before events.
 
I don't know the horse well enough to know if it's normal, but in the video clip, ACM carries his tail noticeably to the right. It might be the norm for him, or it might be a sign of something wrong pelvis/hips/back.
 
I mentioned on the earlier thread that i didn't think ACM was a 4* horse.... he may have been a couple of years ago, but, what ever the reason now, I personally didn't think he looked good at this level, there were quite a few horses having their 4* debut over the weekend, & TBH, the ones i was paying attention to, looked smooth & consistent in their stride, which (i would imagine, having never done it) is a bit of an unknown until you actually get there.

Also... ACM, looked very tired, now i know nothing of OT, & don't really follow his horses, but on the basis the horse has done a number of 4*, without lengthy periods out of work, & OT is experienced at this level, i'm wondering if something underlying isn't 100% & may be impacting fitness levels, recovery times etc, etc, as well as balance & co-ordination going XC

on an entirely unrelated note, I had a P2Per a number of years ago, that started hitting fences 2.5ish miles into a race, (as in totally failing to take off) couldn't get to the bottom of it, decided it was my riding, poor horse then dropped dead underneath me & the PM concluded that he had a defect with his heart, hence he was basically hitting a wall at 2.5ish miles, one assumes ACM will be galloped at some point in a HR monitor, but... ??

anyway, having never evented at that level, who am I to comment!! :D
 
IMO a rider technique does not start to make a horse go careless with his legs the way this horse was. He had ample oppurtunity to actually lift his knees like any other horse.
Maybe he wasn't pushed with emily? Maybe as he got older his tecnique has gone down the pan? Still.. Horse that leave's a leg regularly, in taht fashion is not worth eventing imo.
 
Many many other horses were tired at quarry, eg. Mark Todds, which looked much more tired and was imo ridde not nearly as sympathetically. They managed to jump the simple log on the flat (admittedly some didn't manage the one at the bottom of the hill!)
 
A 4 * horse that needs ridden round 'here for a beer' as earlier stated isn't worth being a 4* horse.. I actually thought Olid rode him beautifully and did not deserve that at all.
 
I remember watching ACM at Burghley and Bramham and thinking wow what a jumper, gave everything feet to spare! Emily did a fab job with him but I don't think he suits Oli's style of riding (not saying that it is bad as he is blinking good jockey at what he does) I would love to see him back with Emily going a little steadier around a course and I bet he would be back to his normal self. I don't think he likes being pushed out his comfort zone and perhaps he is a 4* horse but one that is destined to come back with a handful of timefaults ableit clear and safe- Like he did with Emily before.

But then perhaps now it is too late and he has lost his technique and confidence now.
 
Black Beth- what is your connection with the horse? You evidently have one? I will happily state I have no connection with Oli/horse but creit where credit is due, he has been riding very well imo in the last few years and has really adapted his previous driving style to a more firm and persistant style and don't see why any horse wouldn't gain confidence from it. A lot of people seem to think he should not be being competitive when he is riding, I'm sorry but its 4* i.e competitive rather than ridingn club pat the pony riding!
 
SusieT said:
IMO a rider technique does not start to make a horse go careless with his legs the way this horse was. He had ample oppurtunity to actually lift his knees like any other horse.
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I disagree, if you push push push all the way, the horse is bound to tire sooner rather than later, it is my belief that the horse was tired by the time he got to the lake and that's when he started making mistakes. I also believe that OT is arrogant enough to carry on going to the finish line because it is more important to finish, than pull up.
 
A picture paints a thousand words.....
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We were concerned about ACM after the fall as he did look very sore and tired. OT undid the girth and then walked off. We watched ACM all the way back and OT didn't even look back at the horse.
There really is no bond there and no bond in my opinion means that you don't have the crucial partnership needed to do 4*
 
I would disagree WoopsiiD, at the moment of immense disappointment whether it's your fault, the horses fault or just simple rotten luck I can totally empathise with the not wanting to look at your horse feeling. Been there, done that got the t-shirt. And no one could have a stronger bond than I do with my mare but it is possible, when something is really important to you, that you feel so emotionally let down, upset, devastated etc that you just don't want to see your best friend. Especially in this case where he would know the horse is in the best of hands and he probably feels both gutted and humiliated. fwiw he wasn't the only rider who walked off in the opposite direction to their horse (and I'm not referring to K O'C).

ETA I was referring to the comments accompanying the above picture not the most recent cross post
 
Feel free to disagree, thats the joy of us all being different! :)
The world would be a boring place if we all just nodded along.
I however could never walk away from my horse if he had gone down with such a bang and was on three legs no matter how devastated I was.
 
'I also believe that OT is arrogant enough to carry on going to the finish line because it is more important to finish, than pull up. '
How do you compare Mark todd to that? Or any of the other v. tired horses that finished badders this year?
As for the pic of him walkiiing away-An oft quoted horse scenario is 'walk away rather than reach for the stick'? The horse doesn't care who walks him back.. A bond is all very well but as I said-we're not at riding club pat the pony level.. When you are gutted and a lot of money has just gone out the window and (imo) your horse has let you down I bet you don't care if people think you are nice to your pony.
ETS-he wasn't on three legs that I could see.. Stiff/tired yes.
 
WoopsiiD said:
Feel free to disagree, thats the joy of us all being different! :)
The world would be a boring place if we all just nodded along.
I however could never walk away from my horse if he had gone down with such a bang and was on three legs no matter how devastated I was.
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Agreed, but he had seen the horse have the rein freed from his near fore and a whole group of people rush to his aid before OT himself loosened the girth and saw him walk off, albeit stiffly (I wouldn't say he was on three legs to any extent) before he walked off himself. As he's got a whole support team there to take care of things I can sympathise with his apparent attitude and need to have time to reflect! And I'm normally soft and neurotic as anything!
 
oops, edited
we've all seen a top rider whose first reaction after a heartbreaking unseating at Badminton was to hug his horse... it's not just pathetic little amateur girlies who really care for their horses, after all... ;) ;)
as for the "riding club pat the pony riding" SusieT, i very firmly believe you CANNOT always try to win if you are training a horse safely up the levels. some of the very top riders manage to do this just fine. they do not always go 'foot to the floor'. they may go deceptively quickly (AN is the master of this), and take tight lines etc, but they do not look as if they are trying to rush the horse along.
 
wizoz said:
Ok, I cannot watch OT ride xc because I feel he rides the horses with far too much pressure, right back to when I first saw him on Topping, it was his shear determination and grit that got that horse around Badminton and Burghley. :(
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The reason he was sent Topping was that he was consistently stopping with his previous rider
and he needed some strength, grit and determination to get him going. He was pretty successful on him.
Emily did produce ACM very well but there comes a stage where they have to step up from being nannied round to going up a gear and becoming truly competitive - they are, after all, COMPETITION horses. If you leave it too long then they can't cope when taken to the edge of their comfort zone as they need to quicken their reactions and aren't used to it. This horse has a very long stride and finds it hard to stay adjustable after a certain time and this was a major factor in his fall in Kentucky - he didn't have a great distance because he couldn't shorten - and if they can't adjust and bring their weight back more onto their hind legs then they will be more inclined to leave a leg. I agree that here he fell because he was very tired but this sort of course would be more tiring for this sort of horse than a bouncy horse like Lenamore who is always "on his feet". For a top rider a horse needs to be able to be ridden competitively - it is the point of their job and trying to win is what they are there for.

Oli was very successful on Land Vision (not out of the 1st 3) in the year he rode him including winning the intermediate championship.
 
YorkshireLady said:
Issue with sticking to 3* may not be just OT's decision - 4star horse, paid 4 star prices etc - expected to run. Horse is capable - look how it came through sunken road on OT's line for him?

However I think they do not look comfy together it was not a round that was easy to watch or made you feel secure. I think perhaps we may see the horse go elsewhere. Will be interested to see how the other horses go this year for him at 4 * too which will probably impact on anything that happens.

Maybe that is why MT managed to buy his winner? that he did not get on with OT! Who knows....
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No, I know for a fact OT bought LV for £35k, and in just one season got him winning Intermediates so MT offered £250k for him...........OT could not refuse that offer and used money to buy his yard!
 
so you reckon the horse looked rushed at the fence he fell/elsewhere on the course? as I have it recorded and watched it again and looks the same as any other top combination-until the lake actually looked v. classy horse and rider.
 
MegaBeast said:
I would disagree WoopsiiD, at the moment of immense disappointment whether it's your fault, the horses fault or just simple rotten luck I can totally empathise with the not wanting to look at your horse feeling. Been there, done that got the t-shirt. And no one could have a stronger bond than I do with my mare but it is possible, when something is really important to you, that you feel so emotionally let down, upset, devastated etc that you just don't want to see your best friend. Especially in this case where he would know the horse is in the best of hands and he probably feels both gutted and humiliated. fwiw he wasn't the only rider who walked off in the opposite direction to their horse (and I'm not referring to K O'C).

ETA I was referring to the comments accompanying the above picture not the most recent cross post
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I agree. I worship my old lad, he is my best mate and he has got me through some rough times when I have sat in his stable sobbing. However, he started stopping one day, at fences he had flow the week before. I was frustrated beyond belief and got off, handed him to my Dad and walked away, because I knew I was loosing my temper and didn't want to be anywhere near him if I did. Not because I blamed him, but because I didn't want to get cross with him when there was obviously something not right.
I would hate to think someone watching thought i had no care or bond with that horse, he was/is my world, and it was for that reason I had to walk away.

As for OT and ACM, I don't have enough knowledge to comment, but I feel sorry for OT. He gets a hell of a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here, when I think his riding has changed immensely in the last few years and through that sunken road complex, thought he looked brilliant.
 
No big fan of OT at all....but as I said before he was going well - and had shown some difference of approach ie at sunken rd etc when they looked much more together than they have

Not my favourite style of jockey at all. However I do not think this is a competitve v RC thing at all. Forgetting about whether you like OT or not....just looking at it objectively....do we think they suit each other...and do we think ACM has now going to have lost it as far as 4 star...

not sure another top rider would take him? Up and coming might...
 
kerilli said:
oops, edited
we've all seen a top rider whose first reaction after a heartbreaking unseating at Badminton was to hug his horse... it's not just pathetic little amateur girlies who really care for their horses, after all... ;) ;).
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I know exactly who you mean! Was totally heart breaking to watch. Although would say this particular fall probably had more implications than FW's given the partnerships history.

Just been talking about OT with my Mum and we both agreed that he was probably very shaken - don't forget he was lucky not to be killed by this horse a year ago and quite possibly wanted time alone to think about what he was going to say to the owners and not necessarily see them immediately. And he also probably wanted to get away from the crowds who'd no doubt give him some stick seeing as rightly or wrongly he seems not to be the most popular of riders and was deposited right at their feet! He knew the horse had the back up team with it and whether upset or flaming angry the best thing to do would be to have five minutes alone to reflect before possibly facing a difficult conversation with the owners.

All pure supposition I know but just to say there can be two sides to a story and none of us know his motivation in that situation but wouldn't personally think the worst of him because of it.
 
TBH I've never actually watched OT ride but on watching the YT vid he does appear [to my unprofessional] eyes to ride very forward and, dare I say it, heavy. His wrist/elbow is very rigid and does not 'allow' over fences, and he doesn't appear to have the eventers' 'behind the movement' style, which may have saved the day at the quarry log.
 
YorkshireLady said:
No big fan of OT at all....but as I said before he was going well - and had shown some difference of approach ie at sunken rd etc when they looked much more together than they have

Not my favourite style of jockey at all. However I do not think this is a competitve v RC thing at all. Forgetting about whether you like OT or not....just looking at it objectively....do we think they suit each other...and do we think ACM has now going to have lost it as far as 4 star...

not sure another top rider would take him? Up and coming might...
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Do they suit?
No, clash of personalities.
Is ACM a 4* horse?
IMO not this year or maybe next....take him back and get his confidence back.

Another question...Do we think that the nasty fall they had at Kentucky is still playing on OT and ACM's minds?
A spill like that has got to leave some 'mental mark'.
 
I still stand by the fact that ACM is no 4* horse..at least not a competitive one, and that is what is needed of him. He's a lovely horse and I'm sure capable of plenty more wins but not at this level, for whatever reason. Oli gets to much flack on here, he's a classy rider and I thought his riding was some of the best I have seen from him on ACM at badminton this year. He thinks a lot of Splash as well, he's always the first to defend him and has had some nice success with him, I think he's given the horse enough chances now and would hope the horse is given a step back now (I would hate to see him with another rider at a 4* next year, I don't think I could watch!) would be nice to eat my words and watch him winning/up there with someone else but I can't see that happening personally. What do I know though. Beggar all really, so feel free to ignore me!
Regarding the walking away from him, I can perfectly see this from the other side, infact I can see that the more you adored the horse the more you would need to walk away because aside from the humiliation/disappointment...whatever, very clearly in Oli's mind must have been 'what am I going to do with you now' because obviously decisions need to be made over the future of the partnership. The more you liked the horse and the more work you had put into bonding and forming a partnership (which Oli really has this year with Splash) the more upsetting this would be. I would have needed to walk away too after initially making sure the horse wasn't seriously injured.
 
kirstyhen said:
I agree. I worship my old lad, he is my best mate and he has got me through some rough times when I have sat in his stable sobbing. However, he started stopping one day, at fences he had flow the week before. I was frustrated beyond belief and got off, handed him to my Dad and walked away, because I knew I was loosing my temper and didn't want to be anywhere near him if I did. Not because I blamed him, but because I didn't want to get cross with him when there was obviously something not right.
I would hate to think someone watching thought i had no care or bond with that horse, he was/is my world, and it was for that reason I had to walk away.

As for OT and ACM, I don't have enough knowledge to comment, but I feel sorry for OT. He gets a hell of a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here, when I think his riding has changed immensely in the last few years and through that sunken road complex, thought he looked brilliant.
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I completly agree with this. I have had several HFs with my lad and each time I've got up, checked him, then turned my back as I dint want to see his face and wanted to reply what happened in my head...
Olis riding has changed loads in the past years and I though he was giving ACM a superb ride until he fell. I though the sunken road was ridden very nicely and he obvs has a lot of trust and confidence in the horse to take the C element as if it was a corner, and to me it looked as smooth as any of the others... I thought it was a brill round unitll the quarry.
 
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