In your experience- which discipline has the worst riders?

In your personal experience which discipline has worst riding?

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ester said:
Saddleseat surely :p.
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There you go again. What do you KNOW about saddleseat? A saddleseat rider has the lightest of aids, should be invisible, riding a forward going horse with panache and ease. I watched a saddleseat lesson once, and the instructor said something that I have only ever heard from one other person - who happened to be Mary Wanless.

Saddleseat is based on the old fashioned riding style, before there was "dressage" which is why the riders ride in trousers, not breeches and boots, which were then the uniform of stable hands and grooms. A "gaited horse" was one that was trained in the highest level of what we call dressage, including Spanish walk and trot. According to an American academic I did a clinic with once. The horses ridden saddleseat are the ones descended from the old European breeds taken to America, with the high head carriage and horses to be ridden all day with ease for long distances. In Europe, the army, racing and hunting took over the old riding disciplines and the development of two time trot (rather than the amble), and the longer flatter outline for galloping.

I absolutely agree about the vile American "Big Lick" TWH showing, the stacked shoes and riding young horses in the ring.
 
There I go again?! The question was discipline not riding style so perhaps I should have been more specific with regards to current saddleseat showing but I was at work so being concise ;) You will note I didn't say why, or which part particularly because obviously it covers quite a wide range of activities but is most frequently associated with the type of showing I find abhorrent (and it seems you would agree on at least part of that). I do think there is a point that it doesn't matter how soft your hands are if you have the longest shank known to man with not the plainest of mouthpieces.

If you have some examples of people riding saddleseat on horses that have not been subject to any gait enhancements (because for some reason the ASBs etc also think that horses need to be on 'show packages' and have stupidly long toes to keep them 'comfortable', rather than it being just a walker problem) I would genuinely love to seem them :). Perhaps the best I have seen would be the old TWH videos I have seen recently that show both horse and rider in a much better/their best light

I would love to see those horses shown for what they should be, the sort of animal that would be comfortable to travel long distances on saddleseat and stay sound in the process.

What did the instructor say that was the same as Mary?
 
Orangehorse said:
A saddleseat rider has the lightest of aids, should be invisible, riding a forward going horse with panache and ease. I watched a saddleseat lesson once, and the instructor said something that I have only ever heard from one other person - who happened to be Mary Wanless.
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Your description of a saddleseat rider applies to all riders of any discipline or style. And good riders do ride like that.

Interested to know what Mary said.
 
Gosh it was a fairly long time ago. Pretty sure it was that Mary says to "plug in the seatbones" and she also cites a "master" getting on a frisky horse and controlling it with only his seat aids, saying that you should feel as though you are connected to the ground. Which is just about what the saddleseat instructor said and I told her afterwards that I had only ever heard that from one other person before.

And OF COURSE all riders of any discipline or style should ride with lightness and skill - but if you come across something that is new or unusual - the western rider, the saddleseat rider - then just because it isn't English and something that hasn't been seen before, don't dismiss as "wrong." I was writing for a dressage judge one day, who said that whatever style of riding that is being done, whether a jockey riding in a steeplechase, or a grand prix rider or show jumper, or polo player, etc. the fundamental thing is to have the horse balanced and able to obey the rider's aid.

Strayed a bit from the original thread!
 
irishdraft said:
No ones mentioned hunting some pretty terrible riding seen there
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I've got to say it's probably worst in terms of percentage of people that don't observe the 20% weight rule...! But then I think you have to sub categorise hunting because bloodhounding quite deserves a riding style of its own :D
 
Still think you have to define 'worst' before you can have a reasonable discussion. Are we talking about inflicting pain on the horse or a lack of understanding about how the rider facilitates/impacts/hinders the horses ability to perform the requested movement.
The latter I believe is responsible for an awful lot of screwed up (difficult) horses and normally lasts the lifetime of the horse.
 
I went for showjumping, not because I've seen anything too awful at local shows (I don't go to them anymore now my boys are too old), but because some of the stuff I see at large shows (RWHS for example) is just an exhibition in my mind anyway of horse abuse. It seems that anything goes just to get round and in the time. Spurs, whips, tempers, raised voices, strap hanging, vicious turns causing slips and trips, anything available to strap a heated up horse down so it can be ridden, totally overhorsed small ladies hanging on to the reins for dear life, bits being pulled through mouths to initiate turns, whacking the poor horse when turns have been made so badly that they couldn't possibly take off. I try very hard not to watch show jumping anymore, OK I couldn't get round those courses but having looked at the efforts made to restrain and curb the horses who seem fizzed up to the eyeballs, I'm not sure the riders could either if all the harsh bits, martingales and other contraptions were taken away.
 
I had never heard of 'saddleseat' til this thread came up. Had a nosey on google, and wtf?



Riders sitting waay back on the horse's loins, never mind the ridiculously long shanked bits, excessively high head carriage and the rest of it.

All wrong, and just for show.
 
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Tiddlypom said:
I'd like to commend low level BE competitors for being nice and looking like they are enjoying themselves, whilst looking after their horses. I do a bit of volunteeering at BE, and always have a great day.
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Asha said:
Agree with you, the few BE events i've been to have been a pleasure, lovely people, nice attitudes, and some great sympathetic riding
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I think you're romanticising a little. I agree that the ethos of BE is less outwardly competitive than dressage or SJ, and more emphasis on having a good day out.

I compete and volunteer for BE regularly. Whilst I've seen some great riding, I've also seen people that beggar belief, particularly at grassroots level. The people who haven't prepared, whose horse is valiantly trying to get them across the finish line despite being desperately unfit. The people who do everything to make their horse stop, then smack it when it does. The people in huge bits and spurs who look petrified and end up gobbing the horse in the mouth over every jump.

I don't think any of this is done on purpose, but as the result of ignorance.

stencilface said:
TBH low level eventing I've seen some awful sights, people who seem genuinely terrified with the prospect of leaving the ground and as a result take it out on the horse.
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Agreed.
 
Refer to above. "Excesively high headcarriage." The horse's head carriage is natural. You are not looking at a warmblood/TB, etc. with the long/low outline. You are looking at the descendent of the old European breeds. So what is wrong with a long shank bit. That horse has his mouth closed, he is accepting the bit. One person who rides saddleseat took their saddle into the local saddler and he said - how nice to see an old fashioned show saddle.

The shoes, no I don't like but the theory is that is gives a solid platform - jury's out on that one. And I suspect something funny has been done to the tail - illegal in the UK.
 
Hence, I don't know if you missed in my post Orangehorse if you have any vid links to no-show saddleseat without horses trained using the plethora of gadgets and funky shoeing and tail ops that go on I would love to see them. Because the trouble is it is all that that saddleseat is associated with, because it is mostly seen in the show ring.

(I have no issue with the head carriage it is nice to see horses looking out through the bridle compared to many these days and any ASB baby will show you that ;), but I still don't understand why the long shank is so necessary or what the purpose of it was originally?)
 
Horse in saddleseat pictures has some intereting shoes on. Not the most extreme picture, granted. Maybe orangehorse could look into biomechanics of the horse?

As for tradition, just because it used to be done like that, or historically accurate doesnt make it right.

Anywho, Cortez? You will probably know of some examples of traditional, classical and old european breeds strutting their stuff without chains etc on their feet? Nothing to so with old european breeds, look at the spanish riding school, spanish horses etc and they still dont go like saddleseat horses. Yes they are more upright, usually because they are inclined to collect more and carry more weight behind.
Sorry, cannot abide saddleseat, think thats why is is almost purely american thing. Its unecessary and cruel.
Western riding, done properly, like most horse sport is a pleasure to watch, and I can see its purpose, saddleseat I am sorry is not comparable.
 
I googled 'saddleseat horse flatshod' and found this photo.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f0/8f/b3/f08fb3d2fe4d987139e709badb444c7c.jpg

He's a Tennessee Walking Horse and doesn't have the nicked tail. It does make me wonder if the people who flatshoe their horses are also less likely to do things like tail nicking too?

This Saddlebred also looks to be flatshod with a natural tail.

http://www.horsechannel.com/images/horse-news-article-images/morgan-classic-pleasure_800.jpg

Saddleseat cob anyone?

Sara314_550.jpg
 
A rather sweet American Saddlebred foal. You can see the upright neck conformation clearly. I like ASB's but then I also like Akhal Tekes and their slightly outside the 'norm' conformation too.

5c8402a316d6e1631060f20281eaaf8e.jpg
 
The cob tail :D :D. I think the martingale hands in air combo means you can ride with your hands higher to tick the how it should look box without affecting the horse so much, interesting no neck strap unless it is white.

I guess I don't get the whole bigger/more extreme= better, or the concept that the use of artificial gait enhancements means that you are judging the best horse on the day, or then breeding the best either.

Draft horse shoeing is funky in the US too, because for some reason drafts with more movement is a good thing despite the fact that of all types they should be putting all their power into the ground not lifting their knees higher!

I love watching the trail TWH, and the old TWH vids I watched recently (the show/celebration winners of their time) were a revelation to watch too if you ignored the tails, they can canter properly and everything :D

I assume the concept of the long shanks is head up but keep it nearer the vertical, it would be interesting to see how that ASB would go without it.
 
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Anywhere that seems to involve the local pony club mums and their brats. Every show I go to I see poor ponies in warm up rings having children whip and boot them repeatedly while hanging on their mouths, which have been strapped shut and a stupidly harsh bit shoved in their gob because said pony "is very strong little amelia". THEN WHY IS "LITTLE AMELIA" RIDING IT!!!??!
No child of mine (even though I never intend on having any :p ) will be in charge of anything harsher than a snaffle with a normal noseband untill they understand how to sit and ride properly with soft hands. If a pony is so strong it requires a stronger bit and or a flash/grackle etc then it will be deemed an unsuitable pony for my child to ride.
One incident that has stuck in my mind recently was watching a fat child on a dainty Section B at a local show. Said pony had so many gadgets on you could have opened a tack shop with it all; martingale, pelham with roundings, and a flash noseband. Said fat child was leaning back with all her weight and balancing herself with her hands! Pony's poor head was as high as the poor thing could carry it, eyes huge. Said childs mum was shouting at the kid to smack him harder with the whip as "he was being lazy". I had to walk away as I was seconds away from grabbing the whip off the kind and beating her and her mother around the head with it :(
 
PaddyMonty said:
Yep. Horses and their tack requirements are so black and white.
Shock horror, the pony has a flash on.
georgeDun_zps51f72187.png
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No offence but you have totally ignored the rest of my post and misread what I wrote. Until a child knows how to ride and sit correctly i.e. not yanking a pony in the mouth, i would not put them on a pony that requires potentially strong harsh tack. While they are at that stage, a pony that requires "stronger" tack isnt an appropriate mount imo for both the pony's and the child sake.
My issue isn't with children riding ponies with "stronger" bits/gadgets. Its children who don't know how to ride and use the tack correctly that I have a problem with. Same goes for adults, it just happens that Ive noticed it a lot with the local pony club lot and their mums at shows
 
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PaddyMonty said:
Yep. Horses and their tack requirements are so black and white.
Shock horror, the pony has a flash on.
georgeDun_zps51f72187.png
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OMG, had to temporarily derail thread. I was a bit older here, but it so reminded me of first pony - first photoshoot! Even got matching hat covers :lol:

1993a.jpg
 
ester said:
And if you have a long time I haven't watched this one yet ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNnCQNpStx4
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Fascinating, thank you. No stacked shoes, nicked tails or exaggerated riding styles. I have NO idea where those came from, the horse in its natural state is lovely and very comfortable to ride.

If you want to know more about the old breeds going to the Americas you need to get hold of a book by Dr. Deb Bennett called The Conquerers.
 
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