inconsiderate whip use at badminton

[Mistatiger]

Ta very much!!! LOL.

 

[Mrs B]

What a beautifully reasonable post Mistatiger!

What she said ^^^^^^^^ plus a huge plus a bit of

Let's face it, I couldn't jump the queue to get in...

 

[Ranyhyn]

I found this on Youtube - Called hang on Karen O'Connor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du3496C7WwE

I wet myself watching it.

 

[Jennyharvey]

I found this on Youtube - Called hang on Karen O'Connor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du3496C7WwE

I wet myself watching it.

Love this. Seen it years ago. Always makes me laugh. Such a good horse for standing still.

 

[Mistatiger]

Very good!!

 

[Jennyharvey]

Remember some of these horses won't have been originally broken by the riders who are on them at Badminton so may not have had the chance to create a soft mouth.

Dont worry, not gonna start a argument of anything, just wondering what your views are on softening a horse's mouth. Do you think that once a horse's mouth is ruined, or hard, that their is no way to fix the problem and get the horse light?

Im a great believer that a horse can be taught to be light and responsive, no matter its age, abilities or training. Im just curious, because if people believe that once the horse's mouth is spoilt, then using gadgets or certain bits might seem like a suitable tactic to use, because they dont think that the horse can be taught to be light.

 

[Mistatiger]

I think we can 're educate' a horses mouth which become hard through the incorrect beginnings but there is no doubt that when a horses blood is up on a cross country course, I for one would rather be able to use a softer hand with the aid of a slightly stronger bit. I did have one horse which went in a Cheltenam (sorry wrong spelling) gag but I managed to ride him on the snaffle ring eventually. He was fine with that and not strong but if I just put him in a normal snaffle, he knew, and the b***er p***ed off with me!!! And we thought they had small brains!! LOL. Hope that slightly answers the question?

 

[amandap]

Having said all that I respect all of you who disagree with all of the above and in no way am I saying that I am right in my opinions so please don't shoot me down.

Very kind of you, thankyou.

Regards being right... none of knows for certain if they are right we are all just saying what we believe and how we see things differently.

 

[Jennyharvey]

I think we can 're educate' a horses mouth which become hard through the incorrect beginnings but there is no doubt that when a horses blood is up on a cross country course, I for one would rather be able to use a softer hand with the aid of a slightly stronger bit. I did have one horse which went in a Cheltenam (sorry wrong spelling) gag but I managed to ride him on the snaffle ring eventually. He was fine with that and not strong but if I just put him in a normal snaffle, he knew, and the b***er p***ed off with me!!! And we thought they had small brains!! LOL. Hope that slightly answers the question?

Yes thank you.

 

[tristar]

jennyharvey, i think you have a wonderful attitude based on personal experience, observation, not being afraid to say this is what i feel about areas of concern even when confronted by professional employers you have looked inside yourself and made your own decisions and not accepted what you where seeing because it is a competition rider, and show an insight not often seen in such debates.

 

[ozpoz]

Lol, when i see a horse go round badminton without a rider, then i will believe he enjoys it. At the end of the day, we are MAKING the horse do it, regardless if a horse ENJOYS it. Thats the diference between a human competing, who is willing, and its their decision to do it, compared to a horse, who is ultimately, our slave, doing our bidding, whether it be pulling a plough or competing.

I am surprised to hear you compare a horse to a slave when you are in the field of training. Riding is a partnership, never more so than at top level.
Few riders have the courage and ability in all 3 phases to match a horse capable of going round Badminton but the rest of us can always be inspired
I don't know any professional who will persevere with competing a horse who is not enjoying his work. Rather investigate why not, and if it isn't possible to solve the problem then the horse is either in the wrong job, the trainer/ rider isn't competant enough, or there is a medical issue.

Think of a first ridden pony going round a busy ring freely, ears pricked and on it's toes, with a tiny dot balancing on top. Surely that isn't a slave?
A racehorse , seeing a gap and going for it? A fit eventer, assessing just what he needs to do as he make the approach?

From the Epilogue written for the horse of the year show -

" He serves without servility"

 

[Naomi Hawthorne]

The whip is used for encouragement... to be safe not cruel!
They are air filled, padded whips to prevent the horses being cruelly treated! Mark Todd's horse was young and yes, was tired that's why he used the whip to keep him going and encourage him to get to the end safely NOT for cruelty! They are used to make a cracking noise not to hurt the horse.

 

[Naomi Hawthorne]

I don't buy this I'm afraid. Perhaps we should have someone whip human athletes to make sure they 'do the job' ? If a horse needs a 'whip' to jump safely then something is very wrong imo and we should be asking if what we are expecting of them is fair, safe and reasonable...

The horses have adrenaline running through their bodies... they have such thick skin, they hardly feel the whip, just hear the cracking noise to encourage them. The horses love the job, if they didn't the riders would not be using them in a top level event such as Badminton!

 

[NinjaPony]

May I point out that MT's horse was ridden XC in a snaffle...... and that he was using a padded racing whip, so the 3 smacks would have made little impact on the horse.

 

[1stclassalan]

Really? So if your horse was being an idiot and for some reason planted in the road, and you thought a swift smack would move them forward out of the way of danger, what would you do?

How would you drive a horse safely without one?

We could argue the ins and outs of this ad infinitum but let start out by saying that if had any idea my horse would play up - I wouldn't take it out - the public road is no place for a training session.

All the horses I have taken out have been owned and ridden by others before coming into my life, garnering bad and how shall I put it? Alarming habits! However; I worked on these at home to such an extent that they all but disappeared. I feel the biggest part of this work was pure repetition and the amount of time I spent ( it's all in the past unfortunately) with them - I noticed that many of my fellow liveries seemed to operate in some kind of dream world in which a horse could be brought out of its box or field and expected to do exactly what the human wanted for 30mins, then put back in, turned out or left tied up for several hours while last night's telly or whom was sleeping with whom was discussed.

I used to spend vast amounts of time with my horses and at least 50% of that time was observing and bonding rather than riding. I'm too old for "join-up" but my methods are very similar in that I tried to respond to a horse in a horsey manner and thus "talk" to them in a language they understood. Thus my stick was only ever used on the horse as an extension of my hand aids - and it was usually on long before the horse was itself alerted to a problem - I wanted them to appreciate that I was looking out for them.

It is fairly easy to beat things up to get your own way quickly but I don't advocate thrashing docile herbivores simply because I've chosen to take them into a situation they find intimidating - and I put it to you that in that very circumstance - using a whip is absolutely disasterous by jeopardising all that trust built up over time.

 

[1stclassalan]

I haven't read half of this so expect this will be like a red rag to abull to some but I actually thought Drivetime deserved what he got, it was a deliberate dirty stop; my only problem with it was she took too long to deliver it.

Well, I didn't see this particular incident so I'm not going to rant at you in typical Interweb manner but I will take you up on the general theme.

Most "dirty stops" I've seen were 100% down to the rider - the horse was either overfaced or if more capable was not satifactorily convinced that the rider had the wherewithal to successfully place him correctly and get him over the obstacle without fiddling and fussing half way over - it's no wonder that many horses say - well if that's your attitude you can go over it on your own! So would I in their place.

Beating them up is unforgivable - and as I've seen this kind of temper trantrum in public at International Dressage warm ups - god knows what the poor horses get at home!

 

[Jennyharvey]

jennyharvey, i think you have a wonderful attitude based on personal experience, observation, not being afraid to say this is what i feel about areas of concern even when confronted by professional employers you have looked inside yourself and made your own decisions and not accepted what you where seeing because it is a competition rider, and show an insight not often seen in such debates.

Thank you. I think this is the first time anyone has said something nice about me on this forum lol.

 

[Allover]

We could argue the ins and outs of this ad infinitum but let start out by saying that if had any idea my horse would play up - I wouldn't take it out - the public road is no place for a training session.

Life is not so black and white though, there always are and always will be situations that you cannot forsee which will require a stronger approach to the one you normally use

All the horses I have taken out have been owned and ridden by others before coming into my life, garnering bad and how shall I put it? Alarming habits! However; I worked on these at home to such an extent that they all but disappeared. I feel the biggest part of this work was pure repetition and the amount of time I spent ( it's all in the past unfortunately) with them - I noticed that many of my fellow liveries seemed to operate in some kind of dream world in which a horse could be brought out of its box or field and expected to do exactly what the human wanted for 30mins, then put back in, turned out or left tied up for several hours while last night's telly or whom was sleeping with whom was discussed.

I used to spend vast amounts of time with my horses and at least 50% of that time was observing and bonding rather than riding. I'm too old for "join-up" but my methods are very similar in that I tried to respond to a horse in a horsey manner and thus "talk" to them in a language they understood. Thus my stick was only ever used on the horse as an extension of my hand aids - and it was usually on long before the horse was itself alerted to a problem - I wanted them to appreciate that I was looking out for them.
So if the rider had beat the horse with her hands that would have been acceptable? IMO it is the energy behind the action and not the action itself

It is fairly easy to beat things up to get your own way quickly but I don't advocate thrashing docile herbivores simply because I've chosen to take them into a situation they find intimidating - and I put it to you that in that very circumstance - using a whip is absolutely disasterous by jeopardising all that trust built up over time.

Never a truer word spoken

 

[Jennyharvey]

I am surprised to hear you compare a horse to a slave when you are in the field of training. Riding is a partnership, never more so than at top level.
Few riders have the courage and ability in all 3 phases to match a horse capable of going round Badminton but the rest of us can always be inspired
I don't know any professional who will persevere with competing a horse who is not enjoying his work. Rather investigate why not, and if it isn't possible to solve the problem then the horse is either in the wrong job, the trainer/ rider isn't competant enough, or there is a medical issue.

Think of a first ridden pony going round a busy ring freely, ears pricked and on it's toes, with a tiny dot balancing on top. Surely that isn't a slave?
A racehorse , seeing a gap and going for it? A fit eventer, assessing just what he needs to do as he make the approach?

From the Epilogue written for the horse of the year show -

" He serves without servility"

Got this definition of the web.
Slave... A person who is held in bondage to another; one who is wholly subject to the will of another; one who is held as a chattel; one who has no freedom of action, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another.

Just change the PERSON to HORSE. Im not saying that everyone treats their horse like this, but a large population of the horse world do, especially someone who has money to win or loose in a horse.

And your right, it is a partnership, or at least it should be. Horsemanship is based on trust and understanding. Unfortunately i see too many riders who push their will onto a horse, instead of creating this parnership.

 

[Allover]

And your right, it is a partnership, or at least it should be. Horsemanship is based on trust and understanding. Unfortunately i see too many riders who push their will onto a horse, instead of creating this parnership.

100% agree but there is a difference between giving the horse a "reminder" to pick its legs up or smacking a horse in the middle of a temper tantrum because things have not gone your way.

 

[Jennyharvey]

Well, I didn't see this particular incident so I'm not going to rant at you in typical Interweb manner but I will take you up on the general theme.

Most "dirty stops" I've seen were 100% down to the rider - the horse was either overfaced or if more capable was not satifactorily convinced that the rider had the wherewithal to successfully place him correctly and get him over the obstacle without fiddling and fussing half way over - it's no wonder that many horses say - well if that's your attitude you can go over it on your own! So would I in their place.

Beating them up is unforgivable - and as I've seen this kind of temper trantrum in public at International Dressage warm ups - god knows what the poor horses get at home!

Unfortunately you also see this kind of treatment at lower levels too. I dont go to shows anymore to watch, because i dont like to see the horse punished for rider errors, or a rider getting anoyed because they had faults and taking it out on the horse. They are not our punch bags for when we get angry.

You would think that by the time a rider gets to international level, they would have learned to control it. unfortunately not. I think the warm up arena and space between warm up and main arena are best places to see the attitude of the rider.

 

[lannerch]

I haven't read half of this so expect this will be like a red rag to abull to some but I actually thought Drivetime deserved what he got, it was a deliberate dirty stop; my only problem with it was she took too long to deliver it.

drivetime would have deserved it if it had been adminstered at the correct time however it was far too late and the correct moment was missed leaving the horse to wonder why it was beaten!
At the time it was given it was thoroughly undeserved!

For those who think a horse does not enjoy badders one word Buzz!

And for those that think whips should be banned have a look at my signiture it relates to you!

 

[HollyWoozle]

Pushing horses to win a bloomin competition is something I don't think is acceptable. Humans can push themselves as much as they want but a horse cannot be described as a consenting partner imo.

I'm curious to know at what point your horse consented to anything you do with them.

 

[lannerch]

I would too

And I saw no 'Pushing horses to win a bloomin competition' and I was positioned at the quarry!

And with the choice possible 60k by doing something or the high possiblity of a fall by doing nothing hmm wonder which I would choose even if I was viewing it with the eyes of the horse!

 

[intouch]

I would too


And with the choice possible 60k by doing something or the high possiblity of a fall by doing nothing hmm wonder which I would choose even if I was viewing it with the eyes of the horse!

I think this is exactly the point some people are trying to make. Though I can't see a horse caring.

 

[lannerch]

I suspect most horses do care if they fall or not!

remember only the rider knows what is ahead

 

[amandap]

I'm curious to know at what point your horse consented to anything you do with them.

In the whole picture, nothing. I keep them fenced in etc. etc. and have the last word on what they eat, where they go in the main, who their friends are.
I think mine consent to a lot of stuff by not showing signs of resistance or displeasure. I can't talk to them and ask them, so I have to go by their reactions and behaviour...

I have little option but to go by their responses to stuff I do with and to them as to whether they are consenting and/or tolerating. So if they run off or move away from me then I take that to mean they're not keen or not having it full stop. I then try to work out a way to make it acceptable to them.

To me if a horse is flagging or giving signals he is going to evade a jump or anything, then to me he is saying... I don't want to. I don't believe he is being awkward or naughty myself. To me that is our interpretation of what is happening because it isn't what we want.

So if a horse is clearly tired I don't feel it's acceptable to hit it with a crop to wake it up as imo he is clearly saying, I'm tired, I want to stop or not jump that fence.
We have a choice then, we can force him on with a whip and spurs and our determination or we can listen and stop or do whatever action is safe that takes account of what the horse is telling us.
I think money and the need to win can make us force horses to do stuff they clearly do not want to do.

I wrote that sentence in frustration and didn't word it very well so have tried to explain my thinking here. I'm sure horses do enjoy a good gallop, jumping and being ridden, but I think there are times when they do not enjoy it and I think we should listen to them in those circumstances not just hit them to make them.

 

[Allover]

So if you had a child that did not want to go to school one day because they were tired or worried about it would you make them go? IMO it is the same principle, sometimes we have to do things that we do not necessarily want to do but for our long term education and well being having a bit of a push along the way is by no means detrimental to our future or our mental health (depending on the ways and means used to get the child there).

The difference IMHO is that some parents would speak to the child and make it happy to go in, some would just present the child at school and leave (regardless of whether it was happy about it or not) and others would give the child a smack and make it go in.

 

[amandap]

So if you had a child that did not want to go to school one day because they were tired or worried about it would you make them go? IMO it is the same principle, sometimes we have to do things that we do not necessarily want to do but for our long term education and well being having a bit of a push along the way is by no means detrimental to our future or our mental health (depending on the ways and means used to get the child there).

The difference IMHO is that some parents would speak to the child and make it happy to go in, some would just present the child at school and leave (regardless of whether it was happy about it or not) and others would give the child a smack and make it go in.

Sort of. I do think there are differences because school isn't generally dangerous and there is no immediate finantial or status motivators and we can of course talk to the child and come to an agreement as well as see things very clearly from their point of view.
However, I'd like to also look at why the child is tired and address that in the longer term. Is there something at school the child is worrying about, is the child being bullied or asked to do something it finds hard or isn't ready for, is the child up on playstation all night etc. etc.

So for the horse, why is he tired? Is he fit enough? Are the fences too big, is the course too long etc. etc.

Just thinking perhaps the child gymnast analogy is closer as it is a competition with immediate rewards.

 

[lannerch]

We all have to do things we do not want to do and often for financial motivation, why should a horse be different? They do after all unless you have endless sums of money have to earn their keep.

Even a child going to school for eventually an education that will lead to a better job is indirectly financial motivation.

I do agree though you should be questioning why the problems are occuring.

Mark todd certaily said on fininshing as the horse finished tired he would be looking at changing the horses fitness program.