inconsiderate whip use at badminton

[Flame_]

i am not in awe of top riders, why should i be?, i know just as many ordinary folk who ride really well and who treat their horses, not as vehicules to fame and fortune but as friends and companions, and who really can say that they are not as good as mark todd if the inclination had been in them to try?

some of the best riders in history have not competed a lot, their motivation was different, it was a voyage of discovery to reach a place where horse and man met and understood each other in a way most competition riders will never know

eventing and horse racing are noted for hard attitudes towards horses, this has been expressed to me by both people involved in racing and by a british eventing accredited trainer.

I pretty much agree with this, except I think Mark Todd is well deserving of our awe and he is one of those horsemen who is in another league than most people could ever aspire to, as are, tbf, a few lesser knowns who are busy training young horses, etc. I believe there are many riders out there who could have got to 4* level if opportunities and inclination had sent them that way, but there are few who could ever be among that handful of specially talented riders that includes Mr Todd . I think I'm agreeing with you that horsemanship isn't really measured by what level of eventing you get to.

As a side point, that horse that did the naughty stop at the water deserved them few smacks.

 

[Jennyharvey]

i am not in awe of top riders, why should i be?, i know just as many ordinary folk who ride really well and who treat their horses, not as vehicules to fame and fortune but as friends and companions, and who really can say that they are not as good as mark todd if the inclination had been in them to try?

some of the best riders in history have not competed a lot, their motivation was different, it was a voyage of discovery to reach a place where horse and man met and understood each other in a way most competition riders will never know

eventing and horse racing are noted for hard attitudes towards horses, this has been expressed to me by both people involved in racing and by a british eventing accredited trainer.

the point for me really is when does it become too much to ask, how far is it humane to go, when does it become abuse?


its not only the horses that get killed outright on the day, its the horses that are injured, legs, backs, musculature problems, horses prematurely worn out, that are unseen by the public, the toll is higher than would appear at first glance

Totally agree. I dont look up to these riders who are at the top of their game. I dont have any ambition to be as successful as any of them.

I would rather aspire to be like someone who has no interest in competing, who rides because of their love for horses, not of glory. To me, someone who wants success can quite often put the desire for success before the horse. Not in that they are cruel to the horse, but maybe they are more likely to use methods that i dont agree with. Like the use of gagdets, big bits, spurs, draw reins etc.

When i worked in OZ, i worked for a leading lady rider. I admit, she was a brilliant rider, and got really good results with her horses. She wasnt leading rider for nothing!
The main thing i didnt like about her was how she trained the horses, the bits she used, which included a twisted wire snaffle on a 5 year old. She also had a 4 year old jumping 1m20. Which to me is too big.
When she was finished riding, some of the horses looked soo dead, i felt so bad for them.
Im sure not all competitors are like this, but im sure there are a lot of them that will treat the horse like a machine to win, rather than an animal.
And maybe im just soft, but i do feel that if we want to win, we will quite often treat the horse like a winning machine, that gets punished for our mistakes, which i just cant agree with.
Also, who uses the most gadgets to train a horse? Not a happy hacker who just want to enjoy their horse's company, but those who have more to loose if their horse doesnt perform the best. Those who want to win, sometimes at any cost.

Sorry if i was rambling

 

[skewbald_again]

She also had a 4 year old jumping 1m20. Which to me is too big.

Not unusual for a talented, top bred horse with a pro rider.

When she was finished riding, some of the horses looked soo dead, i felt so bad for them.

Hmm. Isn't that where you come in? I mean, yes, after a hard session, sports horses are hot and tired. Hence the groom hops on, cools them down, washes them off, etc. That was always my job, anyway.

Im sure not all competitors are like this, but im sure there are a lot of them that will treat the horse like a machine to win, rather than an animal.

There may be, but I've not met lots. They would end up with a lot of broken down horses.

Also, who uses the most gadgets to train a horse? Not a happy hacker who just want to enjoy their horse's company, but those who have more to loose if their horse doesnt perform the best.

Actually, I think I would dispute that. Commensurate to the job in hand, I think some happy hackers use the biggest amount of unnecessary clobber I've ever seen.

 

[aimsymc]

the h&h had a thing a few years ago called stable stereotypes, does anyone remember "All the gear no idea"? Thats the happy hackers with gadgets!

 

[BSJAlove]

I would rather aspire to be like someone who has no interest in competing, who rides because of their love for horses, not of glory. To me, someone who wants success can quite often put the desire for success before the horse. Not in that they are cruel to the horse, but maybe they are more likely to use methods that i dont agree with. Like the use of gagdets, big bits, spurs, draw reins etc.

people at the top of their game, have enough money (or contacts) to have their horses in the best care. this means regular back checks, dentist, and all the latest things. a horse wont perform to that level in pain. a horse wont perform at that level in unsuitable tack. they perform at that level because the horses are fit, healthy and happy. if they wernt happy in the tack, there would be problems.

 

[tristar]

what was the sterotype for rolkur, draw reins, crank nosebands, sharp spurs, whacking horses over fences, jumping youngsters over 5 ft fences, racing 2 year olds ?????

 

[Amaranta]

Totally agree. I dont look up to these riders who are at the top of their game. I dont have any ambition to be as successful as any of them.

I would rather aspire to be like someone who has no interest in competing, who rides because of their love for horses, not of glory. To me, someone who wants success can quite often put the desire for success before the horse. Not in that they are cruel to the horse, but maybe they are more likely to use methods that i dont agree with. Like the use of gagdets, big bits, spurs, draw reins etc.

When i worked in OZ, i worked for a leading lady rider. I admit, she was a brilliant rider, and got really good results with her horses. She wasnt leading rider for nothing!
The main thing i didnt like about her was how she trained the horses, the bits she used, which included a twisted wire snaffle on a 5 year old. She also had a 4 year old jumping 1m20. Which to me is too big.
When she was finished riding, some of the horses looked soo dead, i felt so bad for them.
Im sure not all competitors are like this, but im sure there are a lot of them that will treat the horse like a machine to win, rather than an animal.
And maybe im just soft, but i do feel that if we want to win, we will quite often treat the horse like a winning machine, that gets punished for our mistakes, which i just cant agree with.
Also, who uses the most gadgets to train a horse? Not a happy hacker who just want to enjoy their horse's company, but those who have more to loose if their horse doesnt perform the best. Those who want to win, sometimes at any cost.

Sorry if i was rambling

So, you are saying that all horsepeople at the top of their game do not care for their horses in the same way you do, that you are somehow better than them in your mind? Gosh very superior are you not?

For the record, I have seen several happy hackers who just HAVE to have the latest gadget as they think it makes them look coooooool, regardless of the fact that they do not have the first clue how to use said gadget anyway. Pelhams and gags on one rein spring to mind immediately but I could go on! I remember one girl at my last yard who had to have boots all round, a standing martingale, a pelham and more dead sheep on her horse than a welsh mountain, she would brag that her horse was sooooo naughty when the poor thing could hardy move for the gadgets strapping him down.

Who the hell are you to judge competitive riders? Whilst I am not in the top echelons of the competition world, I do compete BD (at AM and hoping to go higher) in a snaffle - with no flash.

 

[lannerch]

As a side point, that horse that did the naughty stop at the water deserved them few smacks.

Asuming we are talking about emily here, he did deserve the smacks but unfortunatly imo was given them too late and when he was facing the other way, if he had been smacked immediatly then it would have been correct.

Mark todd rode a brilliant round and thoroughly deserved the win. I was right by the final element of the quarry when he went passed and he rode it very well, the horse needed a reminder, it needed to pick up or it would have met the jump completely wrong!

Well done mark

 

[Mrs B]

I have come to the conclusion that trying to make JH, O2Y et al see sense is a bit like trying to argue with the Black Knight in Monty Python's sketch in the 'Holy Grail' film:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

ie - pointless due to extreme denial and rampant stupidity.

 

[duggan]

Or all the little thug's whipping might not have contributed to the horse ending up in such a state?

So one persons' opinions and arguments cannot be given credability once again because of their decision to call one of the top jockeys a 'little thug'.

We all have our opinions and we are entitled to them. That makes the world go round. But to call someone a 'thug' just makes me sigh and ignore their opinion.

This whole thread is full of opinions, we all feel ours is the best one. We all feel some of the posts are silly/pathetic/wrong. It's our right to have an opinion. But name calling, slander and rude comments like the one above just mean you've lost.
I've been known to use a whip two or three times when on a hack. So I must be a cruel rider and I should be getting off and leading my horse past the dragon he's decided is waiting for him....
As said above, the whip is an aid, and if used as such is invaluable in getting trust,performance and education into a beastie. As is your voice, legs and seat. I see far more whip abuse at the local shows than on tv in any discipline.

 

[Mrs B]

Posted by tristar
i am not in awe of top riders, why should i be?, i know just as many ordinary folk who ride really well and who treat their horses, not as vehicules to fame and fortune but as friends and companions, and who really can say that they are not as good as mark todd if the inclination had been in them to try?

This has to be one of the most idiotic posts I have ever read... (even leaving aside the typos)


*shoots self, much to the delight of the above poster*

 

[FairyCakes]

Ah this thread has made me realise I have been doing it totally wrong, and got to Pre Novice aged 14 by fluke.
Next time the young one misbehaves and has a party I shall just sit there shouting "naughty naughty if you don't stop I will put you in the naughty corner".
Thanks for enlightening me!

 

[skewbald_again]

This has to be one of the most idiotic posts I have ever read... (even leaving aside the typos)


*shoots self, much to the delight of the above poster*

I, for example, feel no need to be impressed by Mozart. Despite the fact that I struggle to get through 'Merrily We Roll Along' on the descant recorder, and that with a break to pick my nose, obviously if I wanted to, I could compose, like, The Magic Flute or something, innit?

I don't see why we should all go round standing in awe of genius when it's quite obvious that really quite a lot of us would be just as brilliant if we could be bovvered.

 

[Jennyharvey]

Not unusual for a talented, top bred horse with a pro rider.


Hmm. Isn't that where you come in? I mean, yes, after a hard session, sports horses are hot and tired. Hence the groom hops on, cools them down, washes them off, etc. That was always my job, anyway.



There may be, but I've not met lots. They would end up with a lot of broken down horses.



Actually, I think I would dispute that. Commensurate to the job in hand, I think some happy hackers use the biggest amount of unnecessary clobber I've ever seen.

Well, maybe im the only one who thinks jumping a 4 year old 1m20 is unfair. Fair enough.

and no, im not any better than these top riders, ive never said that, last time i evented was when i was about 12! but yes, i do treat my horses differently. Maybe better, maybe worse, thats up to other people to decide themselves.
I think people should by now realise that i do have a differing opinion on a lot of things, i think im perfectly intitled to my opinion. If you dont agree, fine. It doesnt bother me.

Im not gonna be someone who follows trends, and does the same thing as everyone else. Im not here to make friends, but to discuss things, agree, disagree, learn.

So maybe people would stop acting like what i say is a personal insult to them and accept that i dont agree.

 

[skewbald_again]

Well, maybe im the only one who thinks jumping a 4 year old 1m20 is unfair. Fair enough.

and no, im not any better than these top riders, ive never said that, last time i evented was when i was about 12! but yes, i do treat my horses differently. Maybe better, maybe worse, thats up to other people to decide themselves.
I think people should by now realise that i do have a differing opinion on a lot of things, i think im perfectly intitled to my opinion. If you dont agree, fine. It doesnt bother me.

Im not gonna be someone who follows trends, and does the same thing as everyone else. Im not here to make friends, but to discuss things, agree, disagree, learn.

So maybe people would stop acting like what i say is a personal insult to them and accept that i dont agree.

Excuse me, but I did not act as if anything was a personal insult, I spent a good deal of time answering your post politely in segments.

I didn't imply that you thought you were better than anyone. I did think it a strange thing for a groom to say (I assume you were grooming?) that the poor horse looked knackered when the rider had done with it, as in general, they do - they have a fairly intense session, but most athletes look pretty bushed after the aerobic/burn part of their schedule. As the groom (or in my jobs, anyway) you take over from there, walk the horse off, cool down, wash etc as usual - and within half an hour they're chilled, happy and in their pjs. So I queried it. Politely.

I'm sure you're not the only one to think 1.20 is big for a four year old, but I do think it depends - it depends on a lot of things like breeding, early life, nutrition, history - and trainer/jockey. I think I am probably not the only one to think it not unusual, in a pro training situation.

I also said, equally politely, that I would dispute your contention about gadgets and pros/hackers.

In my book, that is discussion.

 

[Flame_]

I don't see why we should all go round standing in awe of genius when it's quite obvious that really quite a lot of us would be just as brilliant if we could be bovvered.

Do you really think top level eventing is genius or are you just talking about Mark Todd? That's like saying all premiership footballers are geniuses because they're at the top level of their sport, and I'm just not buying it I'm afraid. I'm not saying what they do is a piece of p!ss or i could do it, but genius? Come on.

 

[skewbald_again]

Do you really think top level eventing is genius or are you just talking about Mark Todd? That's like saying all premiership footballers are geniuses because they're at the top level of their sport, and I'm just not buying it I'm afraid. I'm not saying what they do is a piece of p!ss or i could do it, but genius? Come on.

I'd call Mark Todd a genius, yes.
I don't know anything about football, so can't comment.

 

[OldGit]

M, I agree whole heartedly and did say so I promise.

There was absolutely no need for the horse to stop there. He was just being a stroppy so and so and if he were mine he'd have had those smacks too. Maybe a little quicker but probably not as I (not being a very good rider) would have had to peel myself off the horses neck and get my balance back.

I think that the fact that there was a delay shows absolutely that this was not delivered in temper. The rider quickly assessed what had happened, where she was going to go/do, she then woke the horse up to ensure it was in front of the leg (the 3 smacks is not for the stop but to get the horse's attention back). Similarly if you feel the horse is not listening/falling behind the leg when coming into a ****ing big fence, only an idiot would sit there hoping the horse would remember all the treats you've given in the past!!!!

 

[Jennyharvey]

Excuse me, but I did not act as if anything was a personal insult, I spent a good deal of time answering your post politely in segments.

I didn't imply that you thought you were better than anyone. I did think it a strange thing for a groom to say (I assume you were grooming?) that the poor horse looked knackered when the rider had done with it, as in general, they do - they have a fairly intense session, but most athletes look pretty bushed after the aerobic/burn part of their schedule. As the groom (or in my jobs, anyway) you take over from there, walk the horse off, cool down, wash etc as usual - and within half an hour they're chilled, happy and in their pjs. So I queried it. Politely.

I'm sure you're not the only one to think 1.20 is big for a four year old, but I do think it depends - it depends on a lot of things like breeding, early life, nutrition, history - and trainer/jockey. I think I am probably not the only one to think it not unusual, in a pro training situation.

I also said, equally politely, that I would dispute your contention about gadgets and pros/hackers.

In my book, that is discussion.

Sorry, i wasnt really directing that toward you. Just in general.
The thing is, a lot of people here assume that me, and some others who disagree with the majority, are somewhat clueless about horses. Just because we dont compete to a high standard, that our opinions are irrelevent. Or at least thats how i feel. Ive been called a few names, not on this thread, because i disagree with others.
Ive spent my life with horses, doing bhs exams, competing. I may not be as knowlegeble as some, but i dont appreciate being called names, just because i dont agree with others views.
Sorry its not really on topic, but anyway.

In regards to the horse being exhausted after exercise, and jumping a youngster big fences, those are the sorts of things i dont like. Thats why i dont like competing, because horses are pushed to the extremes, go through sometimes fairly stressful training programmes, have shortcuts taken in their training, such as stronger bits and draw reins.
A lot of people compare a horse as an athlete, same as people. Yes and no. People are willing participants, they WANT to compete, horses are not willing. In fairness most dont mind, but there is just so much i cant agree with in terms of some training methods used by a lot of riders, especially comepetitors.

 

[skewbald_again]

Frankly, I think it's a trade off. It's not one they can choose, it's one they just get. The best horse I looked after slept in a stable underneath my bed. If he had a problem, I got up, simple as. All the others were as indulged, but for their bedroom
Top nutrition, back care, dental care, tack, rugs, feed, veterinary attention, training ... life of riley. Not the point of course if they secretly wanted to be a folk singer, but we can't help that.
Equally some horses are out in all weathers, covered in mud, and if they're lucky, otherwise healthy. If they're not, riddled with worms, under or over fed, misunderstood, uncomfortable and cold. We can't know if they'd rather be a rockstar.
Some get lucky, they get the middle ground, and it's the exact place they fit.
I know when I was working, my boys would not have known what to do with mud, cold, and untrained riders. They were happy enough. They loved the crowds, and they loved their slaves.
We can't overthink it. It just is.
If we're going to act on anything, it must be palpable cruelty, like live export.

 

[Hullabaloo]

Im not gonna be someone who follows trends, and does the same thing as everyone else. Im not here to make friends, but to discuss things, agree, disagree, learn.

Not even when it comes to grammar and punctuation!

A lot of people compare a horse as an athlete, same as people. Yes and no. People are willing participants, they WANT to compete, horses are not willing.

Tosh! A good horse loves his work. Did you see Opposition Buzz go round? Ears pricked, loving every minute. An unwilling horse is not going to jump those fences even with Mark Todd on board (and I agree with Skewbald_Again, the man is a bloody genius!).

Even my all-rounder loves his job and enjoys nothing more than going to a party and popping round a cross country course.

 

[amandap]

As it seems I've already made a fool of myself.
I'm interested in the title of this thread... "Inconsiderate use of the whip... "

I personally can't think of one example of using a whip to hit and hurt that is erm... considerate! Perhaps this is why I and a few others see it differently.

I hit my child because I'm a 'considerate' person. I hit my dog because I'm a 'considerate' person, I hit my horse...

 

[skewbald_again]

I hit the back button on my browser because I would like to stay sane ...

 

[amandap]

He he, Just block me, simples.

 

[skewbald_again]

He he, Just block me, simples.

There's no point, really - you're not engaging in the discussion, you're just floating around in your own little world.

The nature of genius, the horse's attitude to what we call work, the use of extraneous bits of kit on competition horses/hacks ... take your pick.

Or just drift in and start making totally random comments about the thread title after about a gazillion posts. What ever.

 

[viewfromahill]

Considerate or inconsiderate are horses/ponies either in the field? NO they kick or bite until they get respect they certainly do more and can do more harm than most of us on here will EVER do!!!! I personally would take more issue with a horse jumping a jump banging its stifle its clearly lame and then is asked to jump again before being pulled up - no idea who this was!!

 

[Hullabaloo]

As it seems I've already made a fool of myself.
I'm interested in the title of this thread... "Inconsiderate use of the whip... "

I personally can't think of one example of using a whip to hit and hurt that is erm... considerate! Perhaps this is why I and a few others see it differently.

I hit my child because I'm a 'considerate' person. I hit my dog because I'm a 'considerate' person, I hit my horse...

I don't get the comparision between hitting a horse and hitting a child.
My horse weight 550kg and wears 4 metal shoes at the end of his powerful legs. He has a small brain and limited ability to reason. He lives in the moment and is unaware of consequences of his actions. If he does or tries to do something which I deem to be dangerous I will hit him to tell him off.
If anyone has a child who matches this description they have my sympathy!

 

[amandap]

Considerate or inconsiderate are horses/ponies either in the field? NO they kick or bite until they get respect they certainly do more and can do more harm than most of us on here will EVER do!!!! I personally would take more issue with a horse jumping a jump banging its stifle its clearly lame and then is asked to jump again before being pulled up - no idea who this was!!

It's not ok for my horses to bite or kick me. I like to use my limited knowledge of how horses communicate to help me but I don't think I'm a horse and I'm 100% certain my horses know I'm not a horse. I spend a lot of time watching my horses interacting and sometimes I can see what I think is or has led up to an altercation but much of it is 'horse talk' and behaviour i can't even register or understand so for me the fact that they might bite or kick each other is not relevant to my relationship and communication with them.
I don't 'respect' any human who has hit me I can tell you, and if a horse were to bite me, I'd be very wary of it in future...

 

[amandap]

I don't get the comparision between hitting a horse and hitting a child.
My horse weight 550kg and wears 4 metal shoes at the end of his powerful legs. He has a small brain and limited ability to reason. He lives in the moment and is unaware of consequences of his actions. If he does or tries to do something which I deem to be dangerous I will hit him to tell him off.
If anyone has a child who matches this description they have my sympathy!

If a horse does lack the 'ability to reason' then all the more reason to try and find a way to teach that he understands rather than hit him. Surely he will have no idea why he is being hit if he 'can't reason' and has a 'small brain'.

Recently we were all horrified by the footage of Emily the elephant being hit. Last time I looked elephants were a great deal bigger and stronger than horses.

You'll all be pleased to know I'm away for the day so have a good one.

 

[eahotson]

I think in general this is more important than Mark Todd right or wrong.Society is changing.People are no longer automatically deferential.If they see something they do not like, right or wrong they will say so.More importantly they will no longer spend money on tickets, in trade stands etc.Without this there will gradually be no advertizers, sponsors or owners and Badminton, amongst others, will be dead on the ground.Mary King amongst others understands this, its why she talks to spectators, signs autographs etc. Experienced riders, because they are human, can become complacent and neglect key areasof training, fittening etc.In defense of the riders, especially those right at the top,pressure on them is great.If they fail to perform they will gradually loose the owners sponsors etc. that they rely on to keep going so this might make them push a bit harder sometimes than perhaps they really like.If I was managing Badminton I would listen to all sides (including the riders) make criticisms where I felt they were justified and try and explain to grass roots riders and spectators the rationale behind some of the riders decisions on the day.We are going through a huge financial crisis and there are many pressures on peoples pockets.They may decide next year that Badminton is one they could do without.